The Fourth Line

[theProdigy223]

The fourth line is a straight up dumpster fire right now. The Boyle-Moore-Dorsett/Carcillo trio last year was very effective in keeping possession, pinning the puck deep, scoring dirty goals, and just being annoying to play against. Putting Glass there has turned it into a joke. The line can't keep possession at all. Glass plays completely out of control and is never in position to receive a pass, let alone do something with it. The most frustrating thing is that there were many other guys out there that would have given us way better production in that spot. The fact that AV pushed for him is my first real grip with him as coach.

Hate to play the "I told you so" game but as an example lets check up on Daniel Winnik. Started a thread on getting him this offseason for the 4th line. He signed in TOR for 1 year, 1.3m (Glass 3 yr, 1.45m). Both started on the 4th line. Winnik plays on the top PK pair for a pretty good Toronto unit. Glass is on our second PK pair and sucks at it. Winnik so far has 1G, 6A. Glass has goose eggs. Winnik is a plus 6. Glass is a -7 and somehow managed that with way less ice time. Winnik got promoted to the top 6 after Lupul went down. If Glass ever plays in our top 6 shoot me.

The point is that there were a few options out there for the same money as Glass that wouldnt be a black hole in the offensive zone. AV needs to end this experiment and go with a Malone-Moore-Stempniak fourth line. The way that fourth line is presently constructed he cant roll 4 lines like last year and that could be trouble come playoff time.

 

[kreidertime]

I wanted the Rangers to offer Fraser a RFA on Boston 4 years, 2 million and give up a second. He's 24, has scored a lot in the AHL. He's got size 6'2, very tough and had the potential to be on the Zucc line. I tried telling OTG posters that and they went nuts. No vision. No clue over there. Sather paid a scrub Glass 1.5. Fraser has only played 6 games but has 2 goals. That is probably what the scrub Glass will have over 82 games. Sather signed a bunch of scrubs. Hunwick has been a good signing. Obviously, he's our 7th defenseman and a good depth guy. Stempniak seems to be an OK signing. Kostka is useless. Malone was useless. Glass was useless. Mueller is useless.

 

[kreidertime]

If AV is going to ruin McIlrath's career, give him a chance elsewhere. I'd like to see the Rangers take a huge run at McGinn. Av's are terrible right now. Their defenseman stink for the most part. They have a severe lack of depth on that team. Especially at right wing. Make them take Glass to get a more attractive package. McGinn will be a UFA in 2015-2016.

Something like

McIlrath, Allen, Kristo, Fast and Glass

for

McGinn

Money wise it's about even. Fast is a RW. Kristo is a RW. Considering how crappy that Av's defense is, those two defenseman can play right away. Gives the Av's a chance to dump one of their vet defenseman for a pick.

 

[Ranger71]

Wow that's alot for McGinn Dump. I'm usually the one that goes above and beyond in trades.lol I think you could get him for McIlrath, Fast and Glass being he's a UFA, but he would be a nice addition, I wanted them to pick him up last year. I'm not sure if the Avs would want 2 more years of Glass though, only Sather desires that.

 

[Stepupstepan]

I think AV's would want someone more established than those two guys. How he comes up with these trades we'll never know.

 

[Ranger71]

McGinn is established, and he's pretty solid for what he makes, I wouldn't mind him upgrading the 4th line.

 

[Stepupstepan]

I meant the avalanche would want someone established to play d.

 

[panzerporter]

A season total of 13 goals and 16 assists among Dorsett/Boyle/Carcillo last year but I'm sure they were all key points. I guess when you throw in the dozens of stupid penalties by Dorsettcillo you have last year's winning formula. For years Boyle was ridiculed as soft physically and inept offensively but now the Rangers can't live without him. I always liked Boyle and defended his usefulness for years going back to ESPN days and would have been fine with the Rangers paying him $2 mil per but that's irrelevant now. The notion that the Rangers are lost without Dorsettcillo's 7 goals and 4 assists last year is ridiculous. Any key scoring by them was factored out by numerous dumb penalties. This year's success hinges on the defense getting involved offensively and guys like Zucc & Hagelin picking up their game. I like Hayes and DuClair in the lineup but they're still feeling their way, would love to see AV mix either of them into a shift or two with the top line.

Glass was brought here to take the body and that's what he's been doing with his 10 minutes per game by a wide margin. At the rate he's going he'll have 100 more hits than the next Ranger and he doesn't take dumb penalties. I hate to spoil anyone's expectations but he's not going to score 50 points this year or in the next 2 years. Glen signed him as a more physical version of Boyle for half a mil less, probably money not well spent but that's free agency.

 

[chuckd3534]

I agree with your first point panzer. Not going to get all down about missing Boyle and Dorsett/Carcillo. As the season moves on our 4th line will get better and be worst case just as good as those guys who scored 29 points combined last season.

I disagree with you on Glass though. He is flat out awful and useless IMO. He is a -7 thus far, the next closest guys are at -4 Miller and Malone, so a guy in the minors and a guy who cleared waivers. Not saying +/- is the end all be all, but it does mean something, and Glass is just bad. I happen to think the 4th line will be much better with Glass not on it, and then I will feel better about that line playing like our 4th line of last season.

With that said I am also not going to sit here and go crazy about our 12th forward. It is what it is, and Glass is certainly not the reason we'll win or lose.

With Stepan back Saturday, and he will be back since Mueller was sent down, I think we have some more depth upfront. The lines I like are as follows:

Nash/Brass/MSL
Kreider/Step/MZA
Hags/Hayes/Duke
Glass/Moore/Stemp

Doubt they break up that 1st line which has been red hot. I have always liked CK with Stepan. And I like the speed and youth on the 3rd line, with some size in Hayes. I would much rather see Fast or Miller or Malone even on that 4th line over Glass, but AV loves Glass so he will be there for now. And while I don't love it I am not going to make a big issue of the 12th foward as mentioned.

If Hayes and Duke can find their way I think those lines look deep as Stemp and Moore on the 4th line gives us nice depth. We'll see if those kids can hold up in the top 9.

 

[Ranger71]

I meant the avalanche would want someone established to play d.

Oh ok sorry I thought you meant Vigneault.

 

[theProdigy223]

Putting Duke and Hayes in the top 9 makes having an effective 4th line even more important. AV is playing those kids maybe 10 mins a night right now. If that doesn't change and the 4th line doesn't start contributing offensively this team is going to be severely out of balance.

It's easy to look up Dorsett and Carcillo's stats and say they meant nothing, but their possession play was light years better than Glass's. But he hits people sometimes so I guess nothing else matters.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with Boyle panzer. As far as I remember he was getting a lot of praise on here all of last year. It's when Torts had him in the top 9 that he was getting killed and rightfully so.

 

[panzerporter]

If we were to go back through the years on these boards every year at this time the 4th line starts getting the blame for any shortcomings on season expectations. I think most of us agreed at the end of last year's postseason that the Rangers needed a little more physicality in place of the big hearted but small bodied Dorsett and Carcillo. That is the only reason Glen signed him, he was a career -36 with 54 points in 377 games so again I'm not sure what some are expecting from Glass. Normally when Glen signs guys to play physically they suddenly decide to adapt their game and focus on offense but that hasn't been the case for Glass, he has taken the body and stayed out of the box. I don't put much stock in +/- for forwards, think it's more relevant to defensemen but Miller was a -4 in 3 games as a linemate of Glass and I think that played a major role in AV sending him down again. I'm fine with AV rotating Malone & Glass but don't think the outcome of a game is determined by the 10 minutes the Rangers 4th line is on ice.

 

[kreidertime]

It's a lot if your coach plans on using those guys down the line on the team. IMO, I don't think AV does so you're really not giving up anything but trade pieces. Let's say we make that deal. Find the best option at center with St. Louis. I wouldn't play McGinn on the 4th line. I'd put him on the Zucc line. Put Hagelin on the 4th line which is no longer really a 4th line. That's a line that can score.


Kreider-Stepan-Nash
McGinn-Brassard-Zucc
Duclair-Hayes/Lindberg/Miller-St. Louis
Hagelin-Moore-Stempniak

 

[Ranger71]

I like those combos, and you're right with McGinn he can play on any line. I think the problem is AV has a soft spot for Glass which will be hard to get him away from unless he's completely awful.

 

[chuckd3534]

It's a long season. We'll see how it plays out. While Glass is awful and IMO worse than guys like Dorsett and Boyle, a 12th forward is not the make or break. And while I like giving Hayes and Duke a shot on the 3rd line early to see if they can handle it once Step is back and everyone is slotted better, I also think big picture the bottom 6 is still a work in progress. We know some of the players who will be there like Hags and Moore and I guess Glass due to the AV love, and Stemp as well, but I think it will take some tweaking to really feel set on the 3rd and 4th lines.

Overall I am confident we'll get there. No Stepan, no Boyle, Moore out for 3 games already, McD out for a while to come, MZA missed a couple of games yet we are still in a decent spot. That is good to see. As we start to get players back, Stepan tomorrow night, Moore in 2 more games, Boyle in 3 or so more games I think we'll get even better.

We have a good solid team. A team that can make a run again, and hopefully we add the right player as the season moves on.

 

[kreidertime]

Almost the entire defense is out plus Stepan and this team should have beaten the Jets, Blues and did beat the Wings. That says a lot about how strong the team will be when players get healthy.

Glass just sucks and I agree that AV has a soft spot for him. However, eventually he will realize he gets nothing out of his 4th line because of him and will wake up.

 

[Ranger71]

AV is to Glass as JT was to BB for awhile until he started sitting him. Maybe a team like the Jets would take Hagelin and J.Moore plus prospect for Ladd.

 

[kreidertime]

Big Ladd fan but you can't trade Hagelin. His speed was a nightmare for teams in the playoffs. Especially the Kings. Hagelin is a better playoff guy than regular season player. Doesn't get a ton of playoff points but his speed just backs off teams constantly.

McGinn is the guy they should target in on. Av's are itching to make a deal and they need role players and defenseman. Rangers have both at the AHL level to give up that are NHL ready.

 

[Stepupstepan]

if they are NHL ready, why aren't they on the rangers?

 

[kreidertime]

Do I really need to explain that to you? You do watch the team right? The Rangers have tremendous depth. Other teams don't. They also are playing 2 rookies already in Hayes and Duclair. The reason Miller and Lindberg aren't up probably has to do with the fact a team that can contend for the cup might not want to play 4 rookies all at once in a season. Though, I would do this because of the cap situation next year.

 

[chuckd3534]

The lines at practice are:

Rick Nash, Derick Brassard, Marty St. Louis
Chris Kreider, Derek Stepan, Mats Zuccarello
Carl Hagelin, Dom Moore, Lee Stempniak
Tanner Glass, Kevin Hayes, Anthony Duclair


Kind of what I was thinking except Hags and Glass switched.
Cam starting tonight, which is strange to me. I would have started Hank tonight in the tougher game and Cam tomorrow night against the Oilers. And then that would have given him an extra days rest for the upcoming week against Pitt, the Avs, and at Pitt. Strange.
Boyle cleared for contact. He should be back against Pitt or worst case the Avs I'd think.

Getting healthier. And two more games until Moore is back.

 

[kreidertime]

Further example of how Glass is completely screwing up this team. Putting him with Hayes and Duclair will quite simply, ruin their seasons. I like Av's top 2 lines. Bottom two lines should be.


Rick Nash-Derick Brassard-Marty St. Louis
Chris Kreider-Derek Stepan-Mats Zuccarello
Carl Hagelin-Lindberg-Anthony Duclair
Kevin Hayes-Dom Moore-Lee Stempniak

They can't continue to use Hayes at center. He's winning 26% of his draws. That's a freakin joke. You could equally play the third and fourth lines.