Zombie The Next Siakam? Don't Sleep On Zach Collins.

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Zach is getting 6 shots and he's minimal on offense. Melo is getting 13.4. Nurkic is getting 14. Trent is getting 12 (in the bubble). Jaren Jackson is only getting 13.2 for Memphis, less than Melo is averaging for Portland. Michael Porter is averaging 7 in Denver. Sabonis is averaging less than Nurkic. Bam Abedayo is averaging 11. It's not like these guys are getting CJ-level shooting opportunity for their teams

Blazers had no problem at all making room for Trent in the offense. They wouldn't have a problem making room for Jackson or Porter or Sabonis or Abedayo. The issue isn't a lack of opportunity for Zach...it's a lack of developed talent, ability, & consistency. Can he improve? sure. Is he better than a role player now....hell no
I disagree there 2 side of the ball number 1 and we are guard oriented offense with pick n roll in that offense. Plus Zach is very good on defense and right now until his offense catches up that his role.
 
Zach looks like crap at PF, I'm just going to say it. His problems also exist at center, but his strengths are also amplified at that position.
 
We need to keep Melo and have him start at PF next season. Collins is inadequate.
 
If we were to move on feom Zach Vollins (probably as part of package), I'd love for us to try and create some room to sign UFA Harry Giles.

I know, I know... We have a history with knees.
 
He is. Dame, CJ, GT2. Zach is a solid player with upside.

Dame was going to be the pick, with or without Olshey. Portland had the 6th pick well before Olshey arrived and the scouts had targeted Dame as primary prospect. And ironically, the player Portland scouts had landed on turned out to be the player that gave Olshey cover for a bunch of questionable management in subsequent years

anyway:

11 Meyers Leonard 12 Jeremy Lamb 20 Evan Fournier 34 Jae Crowder 35 Draymond Green 39 Khris Middleton

10 CJ McCollum 12 Steven Adams 15 Giannis Antetokounmpo

23 Rondae Hollis-Jefferson 32 Montrezl Harrell 40 Josh Richardson
(Mason Plumlee trade)

19 Malik Beasley 20 Caris LeVert 27 Pascal Siakam 29 Dejounte Murray 36 Malcolm Brogdon
(Blazers could have 19 but they traded the pick for Afflalo)

10 Zach Collins 12 Luke Kennard 13 Donovan Mitchell 14 Bam Adebayo 19 John Collins 21 Terrance Ferguson 22 Jarrett Allen 23 OG Anunoby 26 Caleb Swanigan 27 Kyle Kuzma 29 Derrick White 30 Josh Hart 42 Thomas Bryant 45 Dillon Brooks 51 Monte Morris
(this one looks bad now, and I think it could look a lot worse a couple of years from now)

24 Anfernee Simons 25 Moritz Wagner 26 Landry Shamet 34 Devonte' Graham 36 Mitchell Robinson 37 Gary Trent

obviously, every GM, even the great ones, have significant misses on their resume. But the good ones will also have significant hits. That's lacking from Olshey's resume

Olshey has missed opportunities to add Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Montrezl Harrell, Josh Richardson, Pascal Siakam, Malcolm Brogdon, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Abedayo, John Collins, and Devonte Graham

at a certain point, the stack of draft misses result in demerits for the GM when it's not offset with success in equivalent slots in the draft

where Olshey has done really well in the draft, is in the same fashion he has done well in trades: rooting around in the bargain bins of the 2nd round, just like he roots around in the dumpsters of players teams no longer want and are looking to dump. But the higher the stakes are, the more Olshey misses and the more he fucks up, whether it's trades, free agency, or the draft
 
Dame was going to be the pick, with or without Olshey. Portland had the 6th pick well before Olshey arrived and the scouts had targeted Dame as primary prospect. And ironically, the player Portland scouts had landed on turned out to be the player that gave Olshey cover for a bunch of questionable management in subsequent years

anyway:

11 Meyers Leonard 12 Jeremy Lamb 20 Evan Fournier 34 Jae Crowder 35 Draymond Green 39 Khris Middleton

10 CJ McCollum 12 Steven Adams 15 Giannis Antetokounmpo

23 Rondae Hollis-Jefferson 32 Montrezl Harrell 40 Josh Richardson
(Mason Plumlee trade)

19 Malik Beasley 20 Caris LeVert 27 Pascal Siakam 29 Dejounte Murray 36 Malcolm Brogdon
(Blazers could have 19 but they traded the pick for Afflalo)

10 Zach Collins 12 Luke Kennard 13 Donovan Mitchell 14 Bam Adebayo 19 John Collins 21 Terrance Ferguson 22 Jarrett Allen 23 OG Anunoby 26 Caleb Swanigan 27 Kyle Kuzma 29 Derrick White 30 Josh Hart 42 Thomas Bryant 45 Dillon Brooks 51 Monte Morris
(this one looks bad now, and I think it could look a lot worse a couple of years from now)

24 Anfernee Simons 25 Moritz Wagner 26 Landry Shamet 34 Devonte' Graham 36 Mitchell Robinson 37 Gary Trent

obviously, every GM, even the great ones, have significant misses on their resume. But the good ones will also have significant hits. That's lacking from Olshey's resume

Olshey has missed opportunities to add Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Montrezl Harrell, Josh Richardson, Pascal Siakam, Malcolm Brogdon, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Abedayo, John Collins, and Devonte Graham

at a certain point, the stack of draft misses result in demerits for the GM when it's not offset with success in equivalent slots in the draft

where Olshey has done really well in the draft, is in the same fashion he has done well in trades: rooting around in the bargain bins of the 2nd round, just like he roots around in the dumpsters of players teams no longer want and are looking to dump. But the higher the stakes are, the more Olshey misses and the more he fucks up, whether it's trades, free agency, or the draft
So now you're blaming him for drafts that we traded the pick away? C'mon man, that's a huge stretch. It's not like he traded away a top 5 pick or something.

You have enough ammo to prove your case without including the BS.
 
So now you're blaming him for drafts that we traded the pick away? C'mon man, that's a huge stretch. It's not like he traded away a top 5 pick or something.

You have enough ammo to prove your case without including the BS.

Why is it BS? If you trade a pick, you are declaring that the player you get in the deal is better than the rookies available in that draft. It is still an issue of talent evaluation.
 
So now you're blaming him for drafts that we traded the pick away? C'mon man, that's a huge stretch. It's not like he traded away a top 5 pick or something.

You have enough ammo to prove your case without including the BS.

yeah...I am blaming him especially for that 2016 draft. He gave up the 19th pick and Will Barton for Afflalo. That was a trade that bombed on several levels. Nothing good came from that trade. I'll give him a pass for 2015; even give a merit badge because that brought back Plumlee who eventually turned into Nurkic (and the 20th pick that was part of landing Zach...to be determined). But if a trade fails, and the main part of the trade cost is a draft pick, that's still failure in the draft

mainly though. I was pushing back on the assertion that Olshey is a "great draft evaluator". He's missed way too many opportunities and hasn't had the major successes to offset the misses. And the successes were there to be had. That's mediocre, not great, IMO. He should be in charge of the 2nd round, not the 1st
 
Why is it BS? If you trade a pick, you are declaring that the player you get in the deal is better than the rookies available in that draft. It is still an issue of talent evaluation.
yeah...I am blaming him especially for that 2016 draft. He gave up the 19th pick and Will Barton for Afflalo. That was a trade that bombed on several levels. Nothing good came from that trade. I'll give him a pass for 2015; even give a merit badge because that brought back Plumlee who eventually turned into Nurkic (and the 20th pick that was part of landing Zach...to be determined). But if a trade fails, and the main part of the trade cost is a draft pick, that's still failure in the draft

mainly though. I was pushing back on the assertion that Olshey is a "great draft evaluator". He's missed way too many opportunities and hasn't had the major successes to offset the misses. And the successes were there to be had. That's mediocre, not great, IMO. He should be in charge of the 2nd round, not the 1st
Because we traded pick 23 for Plumlee and a 2nd (Connaughton) and then later traded Plumlee and a 2nd for Nurk and a 1st.

The Afflalo one the plan was not to make the playoffs that year (1st year after Aldridge) and the pick was lottery protected so it wasn't supposed to convey.
 
Dame was going to be the pick, with or without Olshey. Portland had the 6th pick well before Olshey arrived and the scouts had targeted Dame as primary prospect. And ironically, the player Portland scouts had landed on turned out to be the player that gave Olshey cover for a bunch of questionable management in subsequent years

anyway:

11 Meyers Leonard 12 Jeremy Lamb 20 Evan Fournier 34 Jae Crowder 35 Draymond Green 39 Khris Middleton

10 CJ McCollum 12 Steven Adams 15 Giannis Antetokounmpo

23 Rondae Hollis-Jefferson 32 Montrezl Harrell 40 Josh Richardson
(Mason Plumlee trade)

19 Malik Beasley 20 Caris LeVert 27 Pascal Siakam 29 Dejounte Murray 36 Malcolm Brogdon
(Blazers could have 19 but they traded the pick for Afflalo)

10 Zach Collins 12 Luke Kennard 13 Donovan Mitchell 14 Bam Adebayo 19 John Collins 21 Terrance Ferguson 22 Jarrett Allen 23 OG Anunoby 26 Caleb Swanigan 27 Kyle Kuzma 29 Derrick White 30 Josh Hart 42 Thomas Bryant 45 Dillon Brooks 51 Monte Morris
(this one looks bad now, and I think it could look a lot worse a couple of years from now)

24 Anfernee Simons 25 Moritz Wagner 26 Landry Shamet 34 Devonte' Graham 36 Mitchell Robinson 37 Gary Trent

obviously, every GM, even the great ones, have significant misses on their resume. But the good ones will also have significant hits. That's lacking from Olshey's resume

Olshey has missed opportunities to add Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Montrezl Harrell, Josh Richardson, Pascal Siakam, Malcolm Brogdon, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Abedayo, John Collins, and Devonte Graham

at a certain point, the stack of draft misses result in demerits for the GM when it's not offset with success in equivalent slots in the draft

where Olshey has done really well in the draft, is in the same fashion he has done well in trades: rooting around in the bargain bins of the 2nd round, just like he roots around in the dumpsters of players teams no longer want and are looking to dump. But the higher the stakes are, the more Olshey misses and the more he fucks up, whether it's trades, free agency, or the draft

So you'd rather have RHJ, Richardson or Harrell over Nurk ? Got it.
 
So you'd rather have RHJ, Richardson or Harrell over Nurk ? Got it.

When people start doing redrafts just for our team it's not even realistic as in hindsight most teams will likely draft differently especially from 7 or so back. If we did the Lillard draft all over, we would have never been in position to draft him as he would have likely gone #2.
 
So you'd rather have RHJ, Richardson or Harrell over Nurk ? Got it.

did I say that?

I didn't of course, you did....in fact, I even gave Olshey props for the combo of trades that eventually ended up with Nurkic

but then, I wasn't trying to re-write history. I was pushing back against the assertion that Olshey was a "great draft evaluator".
 
may not have been Olshey's finest day:

10 Zach Collins
11
Malik Monk
12 Luke Kennard
13 Donovan Mitchell
14 Bam Adebayo
19 John Collins
21 Terrance Ferguson
22 Jarrett Allen
23 OG Anunoby
26 Caleb Swanigan
27
Kyle Kuzma
29 Derrick White
30 Josh Hart
42 Thomas Bryant
45 Dillon Brooks
51 Monte Morris

**************************************************

I'm certainly not saying throw in the towel on Zach. I am saying there's lots of reason to lower expectations and look for a better starter. And for damn sure Zach should not be close to untouchable in any trade talks

there's a long line of young players Portland sat on, hoping for major development that never arrived and meanwhile, their value just fell and fell. Telfaire, Outlaw, Martell Webster, Jarret Jack, Sergio, Rudy, Bayless, Babbitt, TRob, Meyers....it's a damn long list and that's only the last 15 years. The thing is, for just about all those players it was pretty clear what they were going to be by the end of their 2nd seasons. Zach will enter his 4th season soon. Yeah, he's had a major setback so call it his 3rd season, if you want....but that doesn't explain everything.
Think of what a great draft day it could have been if they didn't trade away 15 and 20. Maybe they would have still got Zach at 15, if not they could have had John Collins or Jarret Allen; then Anunoby with 20 and Kuzma or Derrrick White at 26. Now, that would have been a haul!
 
Think of what a great draft day it could have been if they didn't trade away 15 and 20. Maybe they would have still got Zach at 15, if not they could have had John Collins or Jarret Allen; then Anunoby with 20 and Kuzma or Derrrick White at 26. Now, that would have been a haul!

I know that a lot of people get irritated when we 'revise' drafts in Portland's favor. In my case, some get irritated because I will usually take the opportunity to piss on Olshey.....that's part of the entertainment for me....sorry guys

in that 2017 draft in particular, I think the best alternate outcome for Portland would have been Bam Abedayo and Derreck White; probably because I really like both players. That would have still required the 2 for 1 trade of 15 + 20 for 10.

now, if they had actually wanted to use all 3 picks for players (seems like overkill), then something like John Collins, Og Anunoby, and Derreck White...your scenario would have been OK. But I really like Abedayo. He's a supercharged version of everything Olshey hoped Zach could be (minus 3 point shooting), and is actually a better assist man than Nurkic
 
When people start doing redrafts just for our team it's not even realistic as in hindsight most teams will likely draft differently especially from 7 or so back. If we did the Lillard draft all over, we would have never been in position to draft him as he would have likely gone #2.
Yeah playing woulda shoulda coulda is always a waste of time. Redrafts would never be the same and every team could look foolish if you want to make it look that way. Total waste of time.
 
Yeah playing woulda shoulda coulda is always a waste of time. Redrafts would never be the same and every team could look foolish if you want to make it look that way. Total waste of time.

c'mon man

it might be a waste of time for you....but t obviously isn't for me and a lot of others

it's getting kind of ridiculous here. Last week, some were arguing that we shouldn't look at the off-season until we are in the off-season. Now, you guys are arguing there is no value in looking at the past..."waste of time"

in other words, don't talk about tomorrow, and don't talk about yesterday, and probably at least 23 hours of today are off-limits too. it's really criminal there are already 78 posts in tonight's game thread when the game isn't for 6 hours. And looking at Tuesday's game thread there are at least 7 pages of posts from after the game...what the fuck is wrong with these people?
 
c'mon man

it might be a waste of time for you....but t obviously isn't for me and a lot of others

it's getting kind of ridiculous here. Last week, some were arguing that we shouldn't look at the off-season until we are in the off-season. Now, you guys are arguing there is no value in looking at the past..."waste of time"

in other words, don't talk about tomorrow, and don't talk about yesterday, and probably at least 23 hours of today are off-limits too. it's really criminal there are already 78 posts in tonight's game thread when the game isn't for 6 hours. And looking at Tuesday's game thread there are at least 7 pages of posts from after the game...what the fuck is wrong with these people?

but those aren't woulda coulda shoulda posts with near infinite scenarios where its being dissected in a format to show NO is bad at the draft.

you are comparing apples to oranges.
 
c'mon man

it might be a waste of time for you....but t obviously isn't for me and a lot of others

it's getting kind of ridiculous here. Last week, some were arguing that we shouldn't look at the off-season until we are in the off-season. Now, you guys are arguing there is no value in looking at the past..."waste of time"

in other words, don't talk about tomorrow, and don't talk about yesterday, and probably at least 23 hours of today are off-limits too. it's really criminal there are already 78 posts in tonight's game thread when the game isn't for 6 hours. And looking at Tuesday's game thread there are at least 7 pages of posts from after the game...what the fuck is wrong with these people?
Talking about running "Redraft" scenarios and saying people are doing a bad job because of things that might have been different if they had drafted someone else?
Infinite possibilities abound.
 
but those aren't woulda coulda shoulda posts with near infinite scenarios where its being dissected in a format to show NO is bad at the draft.

you are comparing apples to oranges.

not at all. Ukraine and I were discussing what could have happened in the 2017 draft. He had an idea, expressed it...and I replied. Why would somebody say that was a waste of time? I didn't feel I was wasting my time and I'm assuming he didn't either. No reason to gauge what we were talking about as a waste

as far as the larger 'discussion'...I'll say again: I was pushing back on the assertion that Olshey is a "great draft evaluator". In order to gauge if that is true it sure seems like you'd need to look at specific drafts, who was selected, and the opportunities missed because of that selection

I mean, wut?...somebody says Olshey is great at drafting and somebody else can't look at who he took and who he left on the board?
 
not at all. Ukraine and I were discussing what could have happened in the 2017 draft. He had an idea, expressed it...and I replied. Why would somebody say that was a waste of time? I didn't feel I was wasting my time and I'm assuming he didn't either. No reason to gauge what we were talking about as a waste

as far as the larger 'discussion'...I'll say again: I was pushing back on the assertion that Olshey is a "great draft evaluator". In order to gauge if that is true it sure seems like you'd need to look at specific drafts, who was selected, and the opportunities missed because of that selection

I mean, wut?...somebody says Olshey is great at drafting and somebody else can't look at who he took and who he left on the board?
Mi think alot more goes into it when looking at it in the aftermath.

What info was available on what players?

there are just so many potential scenarios that it really seems pointless because im pretty sure for every scenario tossed out there showing NO as inept, im willing to bet a scenario could be played out that he did the best with what he had at the time of the pick.
Hindsight is always 20/20. And thats why looking back in that manner is basically useless.

we all could have made better decisions at some point in our lives but then what other good decisions wouldn't have come into play if the first decision was made correctly... in the aftermath.
Im not saying dont discuss it but im saying knocking NO in this way will be taken with a grain of salt because every Gm can be scenariod out showing the whiffed on stars.


Im with kj. Seems useless to me. But then one mans trash is another mans treasure, so im not judging. Just commenting. :)
 
This is a message board for fans. Nothing here has any "use" or influence. Should we all just shut up and go away?

bullshit. I use all of you guys’ valuable knowledge to hedge my vegas bets.
Some discussion is certainly not useless to me! Lol

again. You are comparing apples to oranges. Of course. Discuss all the useless stuff you want.
But when trying to push back on a narrative while using scenarios of what ifs on the past isn't going to influence many.
So when he says hes pushing back. Then it would help to push back with legit scenarios that cant be turned back the others way is all.
You guys are being a bit extreme to me. Kj said its usless to discuss this and you guys turn that into we shouldn't discuss anything at all???

And to play more of a devils advocate, its okay for someone to point out a scenario that could have happened but its not okay to point out an opinion of that scenario discussion being useless?

im sure kj will say discuss whatever tou want but don’t expect people to take it seriously if scenarios that can be twisted many ways are going to be used to prove a point is all.


I think all kj is saying is if your going to make a point, don't use a scenario that could be flipped around a hundred times.
 
And I fail to see how talking about the drafts where we didn't have a pick achieves that



I've already explained why I listed it before. But in case you missed it: when GM trades away a 1st round draft pick they are implicitly saying what they are trading for has more value than the pick. Olshey gave up a first and when that first rolled around Pascal Siakam, Malik Beasley, Caris LeVert, Dejounte Murray, & Malcolm Brogdon were all available. And the pick, plus Will Barton, were traded for 28 games of Arron Afflalo

that goes directly to "draft evaluation"...it's practically part of the definition
 
Mi think alot more goes into it when looking at it in the aftermath.

What info was available on what players?

there are just so many potential scenarios that it really seems pointless because im pretty sure for every scenario tossed out there showing NO as inept, im willing to bet a scenario could be played out that he did the best with what he had at the time of the pick.
Hindsight is always 20/20. And thats why looking back in that manner is basically useless.

we all could have made better decisions at some point in our lives but then what other good decisions wouldn't have come into play if the first decision was made correctly... in the aftermath.
Im not saying dont discuss it but im saying knocking NO in this way will be taken with a grain of salt because every Gm can be scenariod out showing the whiffed on stars.


Im with kj. Seems useless to me. But then one mans trash is another mans treasure, so im not judging. Just commenting. :)

I have to admit....I lost the track of what your were trying to say.

I mean, for instance: "What info was available on what players?"...my answer would be the info every GM should be responsible for having. That's draft evaluation right there

and: "Hindsight is always 20/20. And thats why looking back in that manner is basically useless." I'm sorry, but in my opinion, that's total abject nonsense. Hindsight is invaluable. We have no other way to evaluate decisions than from hindsight. If you're slicing an onion, and slicing toward your hand, and you cut the shit out of your hand needing stitches, the next time you slice an onion you could make the same dumbass mistake if you don't apply hindsight and cut away from your hand.

if your brother-in-law gives you 3 stock tips, you buy every time and lose money, the next time your brother-in-law has a stock tip you will slap the shit out of him, justifiably....hindsight

if you eat fried eggs from a market in Oaxaca and get food poisoning, you wont eat eggs from a market in Oaxaca again. That's hindsight I personally paid to gain

if your wife and her sister are in your living room and they ask you which one of them has the better hair, you turn around and run away. That's both hindsight and survival instinct. Never answer a question like than...even under torture

If you're a GM and you use a process that tells you Martell Webster has a better future than Chris Paul or a process that tells you Meyers Leonard could be an all-star, then for chrissakes you need to use hindsight and shit-can the processes that led to those decisions

in other words, I think saying "hindsight is 20-20" is a useless bromide...sorry

************************************************************

when I listed those draft results I was talking about each draft, in and of itself. I wasn't gaming future events that would spring from a different choice. It was only something like Draymond Green is better than Meyers or Giannis is better than CJ, or Abedayo is better than Zach

now it you guys are saying that in 2013 if the Blazers had taken Giannis rather than CJ then the subsequent years would have been much different, I have no argument with that. For instance, in 2016-17, Portland would have been better than the worst team in the playoffs, so they wouldn't of had the 15th pick to trade for Zach. They would have almost certainly have had the 20th and 26th picks though and a pick in the 20's to add to them

and if Portland had a Dame/Giannis duo this season, they'd be a lot higher than fighting for the 8th seed. Hell, they might have another championship by now
 
I have to admit....I lost the track of what your were trying to say.

I mean, for instance: "What info was available on what players?"...my answer would be the info every GM should be responsible for having. That's draft evaluation right there

and: "Hindsight is always 20/20. And thats why looking back in that manner is basically useless." I'm sorry, but in my opinion, that's total abject nonsense. Hindsight is invaluable. We have no other way to evaluate decisions than from hindsight. If you're slicing an onion, and slicing toward your hand, and you cut the shit out of your hand needing stitches, the next time you slice an onion you could make the same dumbass mistake if you don't apply hindsight and cut away from your hand.

if your brother-in-law gives you 3 stock tips, you buy every time and lose money, the next time your brother-in-law has a stock tip you will slap the shit out of him, justifiably....hindsight

if you eat fried eggs from a market in Oaxaca and get food poisoning, you wont eat eggs from a market in Oaxaca again. That's hindsight I personally paid to gain

if your wife and her sister are in your living room and they ask you which one of them has the better hair, you turn around and run away. That's both hindsight and survival instinct. Never answer a question like than...even under torture

If you're a GM and you use a process that tells you Martell Webster has a better future than Chris Paul or a process that tells you Meyers Leonard could be an all-star, then for chrissakes you need to use hindsight and shit-can the processes that led to those decisions

in other words, I think saying "hindsight is 20-20" is a useless bromide...sorry

************************************************************

when I listed those draft results I was talking about each draft, in and of itself. I wasn't gaming future events that would spring from a different choice. It was only something like Draymond Green is better than Meyers or Giannis is better than CJ, or Abedayo is better than Zach

now it you guys are saying that in 2013 if the Blazers had taken Giannis rather than CJ then the subsequent years would have been much different, I have no argument with that. For instance, in 2016-17, Portland would have been better than the worst team in the playoffs, so they wouldn't of had the 15th pick to trade for Zach. They would have almost certainly have had the 20th and 26th picks though and a pick in the 20's to add to them

and if Portland had a Dame/Giannis duo this season, they'd be a lot higher than fighting for the 8th seed. Hell, they might have another championship by now
but, if the other teams were picking in portlands place when zach was still on the board, who says they don't have him ranked above those that were left whom they ultimately chose?
 
but, if the other teams were picking in portlands place when zach was still on the board, who says they don't have him ranked above those that were left whom they ultimately chose?

huh?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top