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Cronin traded away Dame, CJ, Nurk, Hart, Covington, Powell. Out of the top 14 people getting minutes when he took over, 9 of them got traded away. But yah, he doesn't have the balls to trade anybody.
 
kjironman1 said:
And San Antonio isn’t really a small market.
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You talking about population and city size? Or TV market size? That town is pretty small homie! There is nothing around it though at all. So maybe it’s a TV market size thing.
 
wizenheimer said:
there seems to be a bit of short memory going on. OKC tanked directly into drafting Durant with the 2nd pick; Westbrook with the 4th pick; and Harden with the 3rd pick....in three successive years. They also drafted Serge Ibaka at #24, getting a better player late in the draft than Portland has got outside of the lottery over the last 15-20 years. That was OKC's 1st tank

(OKC had the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 24th picks about the same time that Portland had the 3rd, 2nd, 6th, 1st & 11th picks. OKC got Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka; Blazers got Webster-Aldridge-Roy-Oden-Bayless. Quite a gulf in results)

OKC's 2nd tank saw them draft Josh Giddey with a 6th pick and Chet Holmgren with the 2nd pick. (Little known fact in the one that got away department: OKC actually drafted Alperen Sengun with a 16th pick but immediately traded him for two future picks. Of course, Houston was making that call, but still...)

the big difference between OKC and Portland, and maybe it's foundational, is that in Sam Presti, OKC has a GM with the balls to make a trade that Neil Olshey and Joe Cronin have never show they had the courage to do. Presti traded Oladipo and Sabonis for PG13 when George had an expiring contract and could potentially walk away as a free agent a year later. It was a huge calculated risk that paid off when he re-signed PG13 then traded him for SGA and the pick he used on Jalen Williams

now that was a big swing
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Thanks for so eloquently putting it together.
 
RR7 said:
Cronin traded away Dame, CJ, Nurk, Hart, Covington, Powell. Out of the top 14 people getting minutes when he took over, 9 of them got traded away. But yah, he doesn't have the balls to trade anybody.
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c'mon man. Dame demanded a trade; CJ had been a Blazer for 10 seasons, was 30 years old, and had absolutely no upside. Hart was going to leave as a free agent. Powell was a 6'3 SF in Portland with a 5-year contract. RoCo was a scrub. Nurk had worn out his welcome and was little use without Dame. Cronin was taking little risk in trading those guys. And with CJ, Powell, and RoCo (and Nance) Cronin almost certainly had cover from blowback because of the Vulcans and because he was dismantling Olshey's idiot roster

Sabonis was a 20 year old talented big man; Oladipo was 24 year old talented guard. Both of them had a ton of upside value. Meanwhile Paul George had an expiring contract and plainly said he was not going to commit to re-signing with any team.

none of the moves Cronin has made are equivalent to what Presti did or the risk he took

now, it's possible that Cronin just hasn't had the opportunity to trade Sharpe and Clingan for a star, and would do it if he could. I don't believe it, but it's possible
 
sheed30 said:
Yes but what I’m trying to say is they’re in this position mainly because of trades, and mainly the Paul George for SGA and 5 freaking picks, which is crazy.

Great trade for OKC, but my point mainly was it was a trade that got them where they are today, not tanking over and over, which was his point but it was just incorrect when talking about why OKC is good now.

Oddly enough, the Pacers are also in the finals mainly as well via trades.

Traded for Haliburton and Siakam.

Final point is our best route can be via trade too and not just tanking and tanking until we get a star.
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Yes, if you have assets you can trade them for good players and picks.

We haven't had many assets for a long time.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
Thanks for so eloquently putting it together.
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most of what he posted had nothing to do with them being a contender today which is whats been discussed. The "2nd tank" period is the right time reference but was it really a tank (which implies losing on purpose)? They'd made the playoffs 6 straight years prior to the 2020-21 season. Their long time coach Billy Donovan left that offseason to be coach of the Bulls. Chris Paul also asked to be traded to a team with a contending shot. Their management appreciated what he'd done for them & moved him to his preferred destination (Phoenix) and basically handed the keys to the team to their young star SGA who tore his plantar fascia playing just 35 games of the Covid shortened 72 game season. The other big player movement going into that season was trading Steven Adams who was up for a big extension... that got little value back from that trade as they didn't have leverage and then the protected FRP they received never conveyed. They sucked yes, but it's more accurate to say things went against them rather then they were trying to... and besides all that sucking got them was Giddey/Curuso. The following offseason they resigned SGA for the rookie max but the following season he missed another huge chunk of due to a high ankle sprain, so they sucked again. They then lucked out in the lotto moving up from 5th to 2nd and drafted Chet.

STOMP
 
kjironman1 said:
I guess in actual numbers it would be considered smaller but Texas supports San Antonio all over the state. It’s not really small. Same with Portland. The Blazers are in a small market but the actual numbers are pretty mid size.
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both Portland and San Antonio are longtime TV ratings losers for the league. Going back to my original point, given the lack of financial incentives I fail to see the league's motive for supposedly pulling the strings behind the scenes for the Spurs. In fact, them having important things happen for them give me good reason to think that the league isn't rigging things which gives me hope as a PTB fan following the awful Stern era

STOMP
 
sheed30 said:
The same dude that replied to me lol.

Phatguy. Same dude that will suggest tanking over and over is the best way, pushes back on anyone that disagrees with him and will reply to anyone randomly about it like he just did to me because he can’t help himself, I wasn’t even talking to him.

I was replying to Hoopguru just that OKC mainly got where they are via a big trade. That’s all.
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I've never excluded the possibility of trades to improve the team.
 
It's not an either/or with building through trades or drafting or free agents. You better be good, and a little lucky, at all of them.
I think what makes small market teams break the popularity constraints and be more marketable and successful is not only winning, but putting an exciting team to watch on the court. Looking back on previous Spurs teams, they won a ton of games, but they were boring as hell to watch. Orlando was good in their early days, but they gained a huge following because they had Penny and Shack then went on to have TMac and Dwight Howard. Not a ton of success, but definitely marketable.
I think that goes a long way toward being a free agent destination. Win games and playoff series, put an exciting team on the floor and it becomes easier to attract the older role players that see an opportunity for a ring. I think Portland is on their way to being more of a FA destination then they have been in the past.
Also, one aspect I like about Chauncey is he's definitely a player's coach and guys like that.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I've never excluded the possibility of trades to improve the team.
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But haven't you questioned the Blazers trading for Avdija a few times during the season, because you were against it giving us some extra wins because you rather us just tank and get a high lottery pick?

in the end Avijia was a good trade that improved the team, he is young and his contract is a steal.

before you say but Cooper Flagg or maybe even Harper would turn out to be better than Avdija, it turned out the teams that did the most tanking didn’t even get rewarded for it

Imagine how much more it would have sucked if we didn’t trade for Avijia, keep Brogdon and let him walk for nothing, while tanking and being one of the worse teams and STILL not getting in the top 3 of the draft like the bottom 4 teams (Jazz, Wizards, Hornets, Pelicans) that tanked didn’t get either…
 
sheed30 said:
But haven't you questioned the Blazers trading for Avdija a few times during the season, because you were against it giving us some extra wins because you rather us just tank and get a high lottery pick?

in the end Avijia was a good trade that improved the team, he is young and his contract is a steal.

before you say but Cooper Flagg or maybe even Harper would turn out to be better than Avdija, it turned out the teams that did the most tanking didn’t even get rewarded for it
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My goal was never to draft a specific player in any specific draft.

If Cronin is able to stack assets with Avdija or if we are found to already have enough assets to compete for championships then they made the right decision with that trade.

If we have trouble adding enough assets to compete with the top teams then it might be one thing I point to as a misstep.

But I was never opposed to a trade. And I was never opposed to Avdija. He's exactly the kind of player I like.

I simply questioned the decision to make that kind of trade at that point in time.
 
STOMP said:
both Portland and San Antonio are longtime TV ratings losers for the league. Going back to my original point, given the lack of financial incentives I fail to see the league's motive for supposedly pulling the strings behind the scenes for the Spurs. In fact, them having important things happen for them give me good reason to think that the league isn't rigging things which gives me hope as a PTB fan following the awful Stern era

STOMP
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Yes original point I agree with.
I did not know San Antonio was a ratings loser though. Thought they would pull better. Obviously Portland isn’t going to bring big numbers unless they become a dynasty with a player everyone loves.
 
Phatguysrule said:
My goal was never to draft a specific player in any specific draft.

If Cronin is able to stack assets with Avdija or if we are found to already have enough assets to compete for championships then they made the right decision with that trade.

If we have trouble adding enough assets to compete with the top teams then it might be one thing I point to as a misstep.

But I was never opposed to a trade. And I was never opposed to Avdija. He's exactly the kind of player I like.

I simply questioned the decision to make that kind of trade at that point in time.
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Ok fair enough, in the end Aviija was a pretty solid trade for us and ended up probably being our best player this past season.

If he can improve even more next season, it could turn into a great trade for us.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
On the other hand, OKC has proved you can be a contender by being a tankard and accumulating assets. They will be better equipped to create a dynasty and improve in the offseason too. Which is terrifying. I'm looking at you Giannis.
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I don't think that's exactly true, though.

To build the dynasty this way, you have to draft well, get a bit lucky and, finally, keep it all together (or be able to replace the parts that you lose along the way).

OKC's assembled a great team, but they haven't even won their first title yet. Then all these key players are going to come due for new contracts. I remember the last time that happened with OKC. They made the finals once. They contended for several years but didn't make it back until this year after completely rebuilding.

The Lakers, Warriors, Heat, Celtics and Spurs all have been much stronger contenders and actual dynasties. None of them took the path OKC is taking. There are a lot of examples of teams taking the OKC path, most notably the Sixers, who haven't been to the finals since, what, 2001?
 
sheed30 said:
Ok fair enough, in the end Aviija was a pretty solid trade for us and ended up probably being our best player this past season.

If he can improve even more next season, it could turn into a great trade for us.
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Could be. And if we never have enough assets to make a championship run with him that will be one of deals that I may look back on and question.

It's okay. I was never upset with the trade. I loved it when it happened. It wasn't until later that I started questioning it.

But again, if Cronin and Schmidt are able to add enough talent around him for us to compete then I love it. He's exactly the kind of player I love to root for.

I think it'll be a tall order to add that kind of talent with the assets that we currently have.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Could be. And if we never have enough assets to make a championship run with him that will be one of deals that I may look back on and question.

It's okay. I was never upset with the trade. I loved it when it happened. It wasn't until later that I started questioning it.

But again, if Cronin and Schmidt are able to add enough talent around him for us to compete then I love it. He's exactly the kind of player I love to root for.

I think it'll be a tall order to add that kind of talent with the assets that we currently have.
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Well at least we took a right step in the direction of adding more talent. Instead we could have kept Brogdon, like some people wanted to, and had him walk for nothing.
 
sheed30 said:
Well at least we took a right step in the direction of adding more talent. Instead we could have kept Brogdon, like some people wanted to, and had him walk for nothing.
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Agreed. Definitely should not have kept Brogdon.
 
wizenheimer said:
there seems to be a bit of short memory going on. OKC tanked directly into drafting Durant with the 2nd pick; Westbrook with the 4th pick; and Harden with the 3rd pick....in three successive years. They also drafted Serge Ibaka at #24, getting a better player late in the draft than Portland has got outside of the lottery over the last 15-20 years. That was OKC's 1st tank

(OKC had the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 24th picks about the same time that Portland had the 3rd, 2nd, 6th, 1st & 11th picks. OKC got Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka; Blazers got Webster-Aldridge-Roy-Oden-Bayless. Quite a gulf in results)

OKC's 2nd tank saw them draft Josh Giddey with a 6th pick and Chet Holmgren with the 2nd pick. (Little known fact in the one that got away department: OKC actually drafted Alperen Sengun with a 16th pick but immediately traded him for two future picks. Of course, Houston was making that call, but still...)

the big difference between OKC and Portland, and maybe it's foundational, is that in Sam Presti, OKC has a GM with the balls to make a trade that Neil Olshey and Joe Cronin have never show they had the courage to do. Presti traded Oladipo and Sabonis for PG13 when George had an expiring contract and could potentially walk away as a free agent a year later. It was a huge calculated risk that paid off when he re-signed PG13 then traded him for SGA and the pick he used on Jalen Williams

now that was a big swing
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Where did I say the Sonics/okc never tanked? Yeah, my memory is tanking, mostly short term though. My point was there have been many excellent players go through that organization some that will be HOF'ers no doubt. I agree that the Olshey did'nt have the balls to swing big. They've been close a few times, maybe this is there year to finally bring one to OKC. Still waiting to hear you like and think will be there at 11? Come on swing away...
 
Hoopguru said:
Where did I say the Sonics/okc never tanked? Yeah, my memory is tanking, mostly short term though. My point was there have been many excellent players go through that organization some that will be HOF'ers no doubt. I agree that the Olshey did'nt have the balls to swing big. They've been close a few times, maybe this is there year to finally bring one to OKC. Still waiting to hear you like and think will be there at 11? Come on swing away...
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every year I say that I'm not good at translating college talent to the NBA. And I don't spend much time looking at scouting videos. I don't know who would be the best choice at 11. I do know after the last 12 years I don't want Portland to draft a 6' combo guard. Other than that exclusion, it would be nice if it was a wing that shoots well from the perimeter
 
wizenheimer said:
there seems to be a bit of short memory going on. OKC tanked directly into drafting Durant with the 2nd pick; Westbrook with the 4th pick; and Harden with the 3rd pick....in three successive years. They also drafted Serge Ibaka at #24, getting a better player late in the draft than Portland has got outside of the lottery over the last 15-20 years. That was OKC's 1st tank

(OKC had the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 24th picks about the same time that Portland had the 3rd, 2nd, 6th, 1st & 11th picks. OKC got Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka; Blazers got Webster-Aldridge-Roy-Oden-Bayless. Quite a gulf in results)

OKC's 2nd tank saw them draft Josh Giddey with a 6th pick and Chet Holmgren with the 2nd pick. (Little known fact in the one that got away department: OKC actually drafted Alperen Sengun with a 16th pick but immediately traded him for two future picks. Of course, Houston was making that call, but still...)

the big difference between OKC and Portland, and maybe it's foundational, is that in Sam Presti, OKC has a GM with the balls to make a trade that Neil Olshey and Joe Cronin have never show they had the courage to do. Presti traded Oladipo and Sabonis for PG13 when George had an expiring contract and could potentially walk away as a free agent a year later. It was a huge calculated risk that paid off when he re-signed PG13 then traded him for SGA and the pick he used on Jalen Williams

now that was a big swing
Click to expand...

It was a big swing and hindsight is 20/20, but let's not act like that is not arguably the WORST, most lopsided trade in NBA history. SGA was throw in on that trade.
 
wizenheimer said:
there seems to be a bit of short memory going on. OKC tanked directly into drafting Durant with the 2nd pick; Westbrook with the 4th pick; and Harden with the 3rd pick....in three successive years. They also drafted Serge Ibaka at #24, getting a better player late in the draft than Portland has got outside of the lottery over the last 15-20 years. That was OKC's 1st tank

(OKC had the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 24th picks about the same time that Portland had the 3rd, 2nd, 6th, 1st & 11th picks. OKC got Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka; Blazers got Webster-Aldridge-Roy-Oden-Bayless. Quite a gulf in results)

OKC's 2nd tank saw them draft Josh Giddey with a 6th pick and Chet Holmgren with the 2nd pick. (Little known fact in the one that got away department: OKC actually drafted Alperen Sengun with a 16th pick but immediately traded him for two future picks. Of course, Houston was making that call, but still...)

the big difference between OKC and Portland, and maybe it's foundational, is that in Sam Presti, OKC has a GM with the balls to make a trade that Neil Olshey and Joe Cronin have never show they had the courage to do. Presti traded Oladipo and Sabonis for PG13 when George had an expiring contract and could potentially walk away as a free agent a year later. It was a huge calculated risk that paid off when he re-signed PG13 then traded him for SGA and the pick he used on Jalen Williams

now that was a big swing
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Seattle won a whole 1 less game than Portland did the year leading up to the Oden/Durant pick (32 vs 31).
There really wasn't a lot of "tanking" going on back then.

You could argue they tanked the next year, as also part of their end goal of alienating the Seattle fanbase.

Also, I'd argue that Cronin did make the trades, but that he didn't have authority TO make big trades in a similar timeline as that of Presti trading George and Westbrook.

And honestly, only one of the players on the team was on par with those two anyways (Damian) and he got a decent haul for him.

Sure, not the haul that George or Westbrook got, but they were also younger than Damian was when they got traded.

(Westbrook) July 16, 2019: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder to the Houston Rockets for Chris Paul, a 2021 1st round draft pick, a 2024 1st round draft pick (Nikola Topić was later selected), a 2025 1st round draft pick and a 2026 1st round draft pick. 2024 pick is top-4 protected 2026 pick is top-4 protected, becomes $1MM and 2026 second-round pick 2021 1st-rd pick is right to swap, top-4 protected, did not convey 2025 1st-rd pick is right to swap with HOU, top-20 protected

(George) July 10, 2019: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder to the Los Angeles Clippers for Danilo Gallinari, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, a 2021 1st round draft pick (Tre Mann was later selected), a 2022 1st round draft pick (Jalen Williams was later selected), a 2023 1st round draft pick (Jaime Jaquez Jr. was later selected), a 2024 1st round draft pick (Dillon Jones was later selected), a 2025 1st round draft pick, a 2025 1st round draft pick and a 2026 1st round draft pick. 2021 1st-rd pick is MIA own 2023 1st-rd pick was top-14 protected but eventually returned unprotected to MIA via trade conditional 2023 1st-rd pick is MIA own; amended to 2025 pick in later MIA-OKC trade 2025 1st-rd pick is right to swap with LAC

I'd argue that Georges haul was better than Westbrooks. But so far, outside of SGA, they really haven't nailed any of those picks outside of Williams, who is good. But Tre Mann isn't on the team and they didn't get much for him. Dillon Jones is young enough that he doesn't have a track record yet. Jaquez isn't on their team either.

But if we're going to give him credit for those trades, we have to discredit him for getting jack shit for Durant.

Bottom line, you take SGA out of the George trade, and it's really nothing to get excited about. There's a lot of potential (similar with the Damian trade), but also a lot of potential misses too.
 
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dviss1 said:
It was a big swing and hindsight is 20/20, but let's not act like that is not arguably the WORST, most lopsided trade in NBA history. SGA was throw in on that trade.
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I'm not sure what you're saying, but it wasn't the worst trade...that's nuts

* Warriors trade Robert Parish and Kevin McHale for Joe Barry Carroll
* Nets trade 3 unprotected 1st's (Tatum-Brown) for KG & Pierce
* Bucks trade Dirk Novitski for Robert Traylor
* 76ers trade Wilt for Jerry Chambers and Darrall Imhoff
* Sonics trade Scottie Pippen for Olden Polynice and a pick

when OKC traded PG13, he was 29 and a 6-time all-star, a five time all-NBA selection, and a 4-time all-defense selection. SGA wasn't a throw-in either. He was the 'young prospect teams like OKC demand, and, he was required salary filler added to Gallinari making it a legal trade

yeah, just about all these are judged from hindsight, but that's the critical test of time
 
julius said:
Seattle won a whole 1 less game than Portland did the year leading up to the Oden/Durant pick (32 vs 31).
There really wasn't a lot of "tanking" going on back then.

You could argue they tanked the next year, as also part of their end goal of alienating the Seattle fanbase.

Also, I'd argue that Cronin did make the trades, but that he didn't have authority TO make big trades in a similar timeline as that of Presti trading George and Westbrook.

And honestly, only one of the players on the team was on par with those two anyways (Damian) and he got a decent haul for him.

Sure, not the haul that George or Westbrook got, but they were also younger than Damian was when they got traded.

(Westbrook) July 16, 2019: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder to the Houston Rockets for Chris Paul, a 2021 1st round draft pick, a 2024 1st round draft pick (Nikola Topić was later selected), a 2025 1st round draft pick and a 2026 1st round draft pick. 2024 pick is top-4 protected 2026 pick is top-4 protected, becomes $1MM and 2026 second-round pick 2021 1st-rd pick is right to swap, top-4 protected, did not convey 2025 1st-rd pick is right to swap with HOU, top-20 protected

(George) July 10, 2019: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder to the Los Angeles Clippers for Danilo Gallinari, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, a 2021 1st round draft pick (Tre Mann was later selected), a 2022 1st round draft pick (Jalen Williams was later selected), a 2023 1st round draft pick (Jaime Jaquez Jr. was later selected), a 2024 1st round draft pick (Dillon Jones was later selected), a 2025 1st round draft pick, a 2025 1st round draft pick and a 2026 1st round draft pick. 2021 1st-rd pick is MIA own 2023 1st-rd pick was top-14 protected but eventually returned unprotected to MIA via trade conditional 2023 1st-rd pick is MIA own; amended to 2025 pick in later MIA-OKC trade 2025 1st-rd pick is right to swap with LAC

I'd argue that Georges haul was better than Westbrooks. But so far, outside of SGA, they really haven't nailed any of those picks outside of Williams, who is good. But Tre Mann isn't on the team and they didn't get much for him. Dillon Jones is young enough that he doesn't have a track record yet. Jaquez isn't on their team either.

But if we're going to give him credit for those trades, we have to discredit him for getting jack shit for Durant.

Bottom line, you take SGA out of the George trade, and it's really nothing to get excited about. There's a lot of potential (similar with the Damian trade), but also a lot of potential misses too.
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first off, you may have missed my point. What I was saying, mainly, is that OKC has played the tanking game like most teams. And in this case, tank is just the handy term for having a shit record and getting top draft picks because of it

and I never said that Presti has been perfect; he's fucked up several times. It's just that his successes have been pretty spectacular
 
Thunder with George and Westbrook and a Buch of really good role players never won more than 49 games which is respectful but not outstanding. They have numerous Allstars, DPOY, MVP....Carmello Anthony, Chris Paul, Adams,Jeremy Grant etc. They were loaded during that period and couldnt win it all. Which is difficult to do, It not like they didnt have talent. To me what differentiates a great front office and team are those that take that next step. Boston, GS etc. Portland had great records and made it to two finals they lost but couldnt take the next step, they were close with excellent talent but just not good enough to beat Detroit and MJ. Then they blew the lead against lakers.....
 
dviss1 said:
It was a big swing and hindsight is 20/20, but let's not act like that is not arguably the WORST, most lopsided trade in NBA history. SGA was throw in on that trade.
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lol, sorry no. Dude was a late lotto pick coming off an impressive rookie season as a 20 year old where he started 73 games and played all 82. Dude was much more of a sure thing then any of the picks.

STOMP
 
SGA leads the league in FGA @ 21.8 per game. he took 30 plus shots last game.
He has the green light to shoot when ever and is effective, maybe let him take majority of the shots.
Man, if we allowed Shae to go put and average 22 shots a game I bet his shopping would improve big time over the season.
 
Hoopguru said:
SGA leads the league in FGA @ 21.8 per game. he took 30 plus shots last game.
He has the green light to shoot when ever and is effective, maybe let him take majority of the shots.
Man, if we allowed Shae to go put and average 22 shots a game I bet his shopping would improve big time over the season.
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autocorrect on a typo or are you pining for him to up his fashion game?

STOMP
 
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