The off-season begins. Discuss.

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PtldPlatypus said:
No--what he's saying is that people who are in favor of trading Dame are so willing to do so that they'll convince themselves that an average player (Barnes) is actually a future all-star to justify that player being the centerpiece of a Dame trade.

You and @wizenheimer are on the same side of this discussion. I'm the one being unreasonable here.

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a platypus simply isn't logical..."I'm an otter!; no, I'm a beaver; or am I a nutria? wait, I might be a duck!"
 
Samuel said:
someone ELI5 please. How is the media clipping his comment ‘moving the goal post?’
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I mean, all the media does is move the goalposts on everything he says and then when he doesn't say something, they say it for him.
 
Teams i can remember w/o doing much digging that made a quick turn-around, something most of us want to see the bazers do this summer

2020 Suns caught fire late, missed the playoffs, added CP3, contended following year

2023 Kings, 17 years irrelevant, last season they were not good, had a great deadline and summer, now 3rd in west

2019 Raptors, made a big win-now move, rewarded with a chip *with good luck

2008 lakers, sucked 3 years prior with only kobe, got gasol, won 2 chip of next 3 years
 
inconceivable said:
Teams i can remember w/o doing much digging that made a quick turn-around, something most of us want to see the bazers do this summer

2020 Suns caught fire late, missed the playoffs, added CP3, contended following year

2023 Kings, 17 years irrelevant, last season they were not good, had a great deadline and summer, now 3rd in west

2019 Raptors, made a big win-now move, rewarded with a chip *with good luck

2008 lakers, sucked 3 years prior with only kobe, got gasol, won 2 chip of next 3 years
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Not THAT quick.

Suns - drafted Booker, Bridges, Ayton before adding Paul.

Kings - drafted Fox, Murray and Halliburton who they traded for Sabonis.

Raptors - drafted Siakam, Powell and DeRozan who they traded for Kawhi.

These were all teams who had spent a significant amount of time building their teams before making a trade for the final piece.

Our team is nowhere near ready to compete.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Suns - drafted Booker, Bridges, Ayton before adding Paul.
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Yeah I’ve seen the Suns used as an example of a team that went ‘all-in!’ frequently (vs build through the draft) and the comparison doesn’t work because of the years of lottery suckery that team went through first to build its asset pool—Ayton, Book, Bridges, Cam, etc.
 
Samuel said:
Yeah I’ve seen the Suns used as an example of a team that went ‘all-in!’ frequently (vs build through the draft) and the comparison doesn’t work because of the years of lottery suckery that team went through first to build its asset pool—Ayton, Book, Bridges, Cam, etc.
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The Suns, Kings, and Raptors took years to build. It took a long time to get them to the point where one move pushed them over the top. And we don’t even know how good the Kings will actually be.
 
sorry in advance for the length of this post but it's one of the 2-3 mornings a week I allow myself high-octane coffee....so I'm whacked out on false adrenaline....
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I suppose this disclaimer doesn't need to be made, but I'll do it anyway: all bets are off if Dame asks for a trade. It's pivot time for Portland and hopefully the Blazers aren't stupid enough to try and be a playoff team right away

that said, there is a pretty 'loud' narrative around here that the best path, and quickest path, for Portland building a contender is by trading Dame.
So how have other teams fared, especially smaller market teams after trading their franchise players?

Denver/Melo: they made it to the WCF with Melo and looked close to being a contender. A year and a half later, at the trade deadline in 2011, Melo forced his way to NY. The Nuggets spent the next 2 post seasons as 1st round exits; then they were in the lottery for 5 straight years. The only asset they got from the Melo trade that is on the current Nuggets team is Jamal Murray; and he was landed with a 1st round swap of pick in 2016, more than 5 years after the Melo trade. Finally, 12 seasons after trading Melo the Nuggets are contenders, but that's only because of perhaps the most fortunate 2nd round pick in modern NBA history when the Nuggets drafted Jokic with the 41st pick in 2014

Utah/Deron Williams: Utah had a 4 year playoff run including the WCF with Williams. He forced his way out of town. The Jazz traded him to the Nets. They got a couple of decent players in Devin Harris & Derrick Favors; and rookie Enes Kanter. But they spent 5 of the next 6 seasons in the lottery, and the one time they made the playoffs, they got swept. They were in the playoffs for 6 seasons; 3 first round exits but never sniffing the WCF; and lottery bound this year. So, more than 12 years after trading Deron, the Jazz have not really approached the neighboring zip-code of contention

Minny/KG: Garnett spent 12 years in Minny. He led them to the playoffs for 7 straight years and in the 8th straight year to the WCF. Two years later he was traded to the Celtics. Wolves spent 16 of the next 17 years in the lottery. Prior to last season Minny had won 1 playoff game in 17 years

Indiana/PG13: Paul George led Indiana to the playoffs in 6 of 7 seasons (the one year they missed was the one he sat out with a severely broken leg) and two straight trips to the ECF. After trading George, Pacers made it to the playoffs for 3 straight years, but were swept twice and only won 3 playoff games. After that, 3 straight years in the lottery and there sure doesn't seem to be a contending Pacer team anywhere on the horizon

Chicago/Butler: Chicago made it to the playoffs 5 of 6 years with Butler. After he was traded, Bulls were in the lottery 5 of 6 seasons and their one playoff appearance resulted in 1 win. Back in the lottery this season and no contention in sight

Spurs/Kawhi: the last time Kawhi actually participated in the Spurs team was the 2016/17 season and the Spurs made it to the WCF. He essentially sat out the next season forcing a trade. The Spurs were then in the playoffs for two years with two 1st round exits. After that, the lottery for 4 straight years. And obviously, no end of not contending in sight, even with elite management and coaching

OKC/PG13: well, 4 years ago Dame shot the shit out of the Thunder and they disintegrated. It's not really a good comparison because OKC has Westrbrook too and they have amassed a giant collection of draft picks from trading PG13, Westbrook, CP3, Steven Adams, and any other veteran with a pulse. Now, they do have a hopeful young team, but they are still in the lottery and you have to squint real hard and turn your head at an angle to see that team competing any time soon

Pelicans/AD: not sure how comparative it is because the Pels only made it to the playoffs in 2 of AD's 7 seasons in New Orleans. Pels did get Ingram from the trade; and they parlayed Hart into CJ, which isn't really an upgrade, IMO. The only other assets they got from the trade was Dyson Daniels and another 1st from the Lakers nest season. They are light years away from being a contender and their wagon is hitched to the health of Zion...who they got from just being in the lottery and getting lucky/unlucky

Boston/KG/Pierce: this is the example I've seen used the most in a trade-Dame argument. There are a lot of significant differences though. To start with, KG was 37 and Pierce was 36; Dame is 32. And Ainge completely suckered a stupid Russian owner and a dumb GM. It's nearly impossible to find an owner/GM combo that fucking gullible unless you have Minny on speed dial (which Ainge obviously does). And the Celtics were trading two NBA legends, not one. And of course, the Celtics got an almost perfect set of results from the trade by drafting Brown with one of the picks, and picking Fultz and suckering Philly into trading for Tatum for him. It's also worth pointing out that even though the Celtics have looked like a contender for 2 or 3 seasons, it took 9 years after the trade to play in the NBA finals. And wouldn't you just know it: looks like Brown is disgruntled and wants out
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now, I could easily be forgetting some other examples. And maybe I've mischaracterized the above trades or omitted important context. And again, if Dame asks out the Blazers have no choice

but I just don't see much in the history of small market teams (who can't sign elite free-agents) demonstrating that flipping a franchise player results in contention. Looks like the opposite It appears that at best, there may be an exception like Boston, but the general rule is it doesn't work

now I've seen 2 or 3 or 4 of the people who are strong advocates for trading Dame admit that Portland is very unlikely, for years, to be a contender after the trade. They just want a different direction. That's fine. I don't want to give up on Dame but Portland may not have a choice at this point. And I blame all that on Olshey and the ownership that enabled that idiot
 
Natebishop3 said:
Not THAT quick.

Suns - drafted Booker, Bridges, Ayton before adding Paul.

Kings - drafted Fox, Murray and Halliburton who they traded for Sabonis.

Raptors - drafted Siakam, Powell and DeRozan who they traded for Kawhi.

These were all teams who had spent a significant amount of time building their teams before making a trade for the final piece.

Our team is nowhere near ready to compete.
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Blazerd still have Dame.

Blazers drafted Simons, he has some value we can use with other pieces for trades.

Blazers drafted Sharpe, SG of now and the future.

Blazers acquire Grant

Blazers acquire Thybulle

Blazers obtain draft lottery: land lottery pick, acquired another rd 1 pick and multiple 2nd rd picks

. . .

The thing is the things I mentioned above seem laughable until the Blazers make it. Then we'll talk about them in that sense (the stuff that was done before the big leap) we just can't see it until we make the BIG move that will allow the team to contend.

No one talked about Ayton until the Suns went to WCF

No one talked about Brunson until Mavs went to WCF

No one talked about Adebayo until Heat went to ECF

. . .

The smaller moves are unnoticed until the BIG move propels the blazers to contention
 
PtldPlatypus said:
No--what he's saying is that people who are in favor of trading Dame are so willing to do so that they'll convince themselves that an average player (Barnes) is actually a future all-star to justify that player being the centerpiece of a Dame trade.

You and @wizenheimer are on the same side of this discussion. I'm the one being unreasonable here.

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Inner awareness to acknowledge an unreasonable take seems like fairly reasonable behavior to me.
 
inconceivable said:
Blazerd still have Dame.

Blazers drafted Simons, he has some value we can use with other pieces for trades.

Blazers drafted Sharpe, SG of now and the future.

Blazers acquire Grant

Blazers acquire Thybulle

Blazers obtain draft lottery: land lottery pick, acquired another rd 1 pick and multiple 2nd rd picks

. . .

The thing is the things I mentioned above seem laughable until the Blazers make it. Then we'll talk about them in that sense (the stuff that was done before the big leap) we just can't see it until we make the BIG move that will allow the team to contend.

No one talked about Ayton until the Suns went to WCF

No one talked about Brunson until Mavs went to WCF

No one talked about Adebayo until Heat went to ECF

. . .

The smaller moves are unnoticed until the BIG move propels the blazers to contention
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This is a fair rebuttal in terms of precipice of the big move. I get both sides of this.
 
Post from another board - Lillard just could be a target of Jazz if true.

"Word is the Jazz don't view the '24 draft class as a strong one, so they're not going to be worried about their pick conveying to OKC. Given that, and both Ainge and Zanik saying this offseason was going to be fun, it seems like they're about to get crunk with all those picks. Hoo boy.ost from "
 
Blazinaway said:
Post from another board - Lillard just could be a target of Jazz if true.

"Word is the Jazz don't view the '24 draft class as a strong one, so they're not going to be worried about their pick conveying to OKC. Given that, and both Ainge and Zanik saying this offseason was going to be fun, it seems like they're about to get crunk with all those picks. Hoo boy.ost from "
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if Dame is traded, and that's a long way from reality at this point, I don't think there's any chance he's traded within the division forcing the Blazers to face him 4 times a year. I'd bet he goes to the Eastern Conference.

Utah? Why would they go for Dame? The only players the Blazers would really want would be Markkanen and Kessler, and Utah wouldn't be trading those guys away for somebody like Dame when the goal would be adding Dame to them....even though they'd still be miles away from contending
 
wizenheimer said:
if Dame is traded, and that's a long way from reality at this point, I don't think there's any chance he's traded within the division forcing the Blazers to face him 4 times a year. I'd bet he goes to the Eastern Conference.

Utah? Why would they go for Dame? The only players the Blazers would really want would be Markkanen and Kessler, and Utah wouldn't be trading those guys away for somebody like Dame when the goal would be adding Dame to them....even though they'd still be miles away from contending
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Honestly the two places dame may force a trade (again, STRONG EMPHASIS ON THE NOTION THAT THIS IS FAR FROM REALISTIC) , It'd be to GSW or Utah. Brand wise it makes the most sense (national pundits are too stupid to understand).
 
Strenuus said:
Honestly the two places dame may force a trade (again, STRONG EMPHASIS ON THE NOTION THAT THIS IS FAR FROM REALISTIC) , It'd be to GSW or Utah. Brand wise it makes the most sense (national pundits are too stupid to understand).
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I feel like the NYK would be a really cool destination for him to get to. NYK becomes more attractive of a destination if they can beat CLE. They also have so many picks and some young guys that could be interesting.

The DAL future 1st is getting increasingly more attractive and future unprotected NYK 1sts look a lot better once Dame retires. At the same time, Dame would be a huge star in the biggest market.
 
BankTeller said:
I feel like the NYK would be a really cool destination for him to get to. NYK becomes more attractive of a destination if they can beat CLE. They also have so many picks and some young guys that could be interesting.

The DAL future 1st is getting increasingly more attractive and future unprotected NYK 1sts look a lot better once Dame retires. At the same time, Dame would be a huge star in the biggest market.
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I doubt dame moves to anywhere but Utah or Oakland.
 
For Reference:

All NBA, All Star, All Defense players (some only vote getters / honorable mention) from last 3 years (in no particular order):

PF:
Markannen
Sabonis
JJJ
Siakam
Randle
Simmons
Zion
Davis
Dray

C:
Antetokounmpo
Embiid
Jokic
Adebayo
Ayton
Anthony-Towns
Gobert
Allen
Mobley
Claxton
Lopez
Adams
RB3
Wood
Vucevic
Valanciunas

SF:
Tatum
PG13
Butler
Kawhi
Wiggins
Herb Jones
Finney-Smith
Middleton
Giddey
Durant
Lebron

SG:
Brown
SGA
DeRozan
Dejounte
Edwards
Haliburton
Booker
Mitchell
Beal

PG:
Doncic
Holiday
Fox
Morant
Trae
CP3
Curry
Kyrie
 
Last edited:
My ideal off season. A story by MM

1. Portland lands Wemby
2. Dame asks out
3. Portland trades Dame to Philly for Maxey, Milton, Harris who expires the following year, and picks
4. Portland trades Nurk and Ant for youth or picks
5. DO NOT re-sign Grant

Build around

Maxie 23
Sharpe 20
Wemby 19


That team would compete for a title in a few years. Especially given the assets and cap space
 
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Mediocre Man said:
My ideal off season. A story by MM

1. Portland lands Wemby
2. Dame asks out
3. Portland trades Dame to Philly for Maxey, Milton, Harris who expires the following year
4. Portland trades Nurk and Ant for youth or picks
5. DO NOT re-sign Grant

Build around

Maxie 23
Sharpe 20
Wemby 19


That team would compete for a title in a few years. Especially given the assets and cap space
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Biggest problem with this:

We trading Dame and getting no picks back? Lol.

And we have a 89.5% chance of not getting Wemby so it should be assumed we don't get him AND no one should be mad about it. If someone is, I'll laugh.
 
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