The Official Around the NBA: March 2019 edition

[wizenheimer]

Oh, are we taking years from over a decade ago into consideration?

And that's why TS% is better. Driving 5 times and going 1-3 from the field and 5-6 on FTs is more efficient than going 2-5 from the field.

TS% is sort of a gold standard for shooting and/or scoring efficiency. Points/FGA is also a fair gauge. Williams is better at both

eFG% has always been a weird stat. Any stat that disregards FT's is an incomplete gauge and has limited use. But a lot of people seem to want to disregard FT's when they are trying to extol the virtues of a player that doesn't get to the foul line.

 

[blue9]

TS% is sort of a gold standard for shooting and/or scoring efficiency. Points/FGA is also a fair gauge. Williams is better at both

Williams and CJ are essentially equal at TS% - the difference is negligible. And because Williams gets to the line much more than CJ, that means CJ is a much better shooter.
The difference in PPS comes out to a little over 2 points per game. Surely with better coaching CJ could improve in this area.
Additionally, CJ is a starter and Lou is a 6th man - generally speaking CJ plays against better players than Lou does. This probably also figures into their PPS differential in some manner.

 

[wizenheimer]

Williams and CJ are essentially equal at TS% - the difference is negligible. And because Williams gets to the line much more than CJ, that means CJ is a much better shooter.

ok...this might just be semantics but to me, defining a shooter HAS to account for efficiency. FT's are shots too...part of shooting. So when you compare players saying one is a better shooter, and the other is better at TS% and PPS, it seems contradictory. But as I said, maybe that's just a matter of definitions, and those gauges of TS% and PPS are better labeled as components of being a scorer. I'd allow for somebody suggesting that CJ is a better shooter as long as they admitted Williams was a better scorer. I wouldn't agree with it but it's a minor quibble

but if the CJ/Williams comparison is an issue for you, then how about CJ and Dame? CJ has better 3pt and 2 pt percentages, but Dame crushes CJ in TS% and PPS. That makes Dame a better shooter in my book, and certainly a much better scorer. There are just better results when Dame shoots...that makes him a better shooter IMO. In fact, if there is a definition of shooter that only accounts for 2pFG% and 3ptFG%, and nothing else, then scoring is a hell of a lot more important than shooting

The difference in PPS comes out to a little over 2 points per game. Surely with better coaching CJ could improve in this area.

you could say that about everybody though. CJ is a 4 year starter who has more than 6500 FGA's. He's 27 years old in his 6th NBA season after a 4 year college career. I have no reason to believe his coaching has not been adequate. That's a portrait of he-is-what-he-is

Additionally, CJ is a starter and Lou is a 6th man - generally speaking CJ plays against better players than Lou does. This probably also figures into their PPS differential in some manner.

yeah, I mentioned that their roles are different. But Williams isn't an 18 minutes a game bench player. He's a 25-30 minutes a game 6th man; so I'm not sure how much either plays against starters vs 2nd unit players. Certainly CJ usually is in the game at the top of the 2nd Q and 4th Q, and that's generally when teams have more backups playing. And both CJ and Lou are usually on the floor in the last half of the 4th Q

 

[KingSpeed]

Damn Dallas almost beat Houston. Luka was awesome down the stretch but they should’ve called timeout on last play. Damnit.

 

[kjironman1]

Hes an even smaller and worse defender.

Thank you!

 

[DDolla]

There’s no easy game, look at Phoenix beating the Warriors.

 

[Hoopguru]

There’s no easy game, look at Phoenix beating the Warriors.

Ayton & Booker look had solid games.

 

[Hoopguru]

Perfect example of teams living and dying by the 3, works lagged in that area tonight.
Most NBA defenses have a tough time guarding the 3 line .

 

[joeBlazers]

I wouldn't trade CJ. I would force the coach to limit hit crappy shots. I would cap his shots attempts and bench him, once he goes wild ... like 8 - 24 ? I would challenge him to get more assists, rebound more and get more to the free throw line. In other words, I would challenge him to stop being a black hole at times ... I want CJ to make the team better. PERIOD.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I wouldn't trade CJ. I would force the coach to limit hit crappy shots. I would cap his shots attempts and bench him, once he goes wild ... like 8 - 24 ? I would challenge him to get more assists, rebound more and get more to the free throw line. In other words, I would challenge him to stop being a black hole at times ... I want CJ to make the team better. PERIOD.

CJ came out of college with the rep of being an unselfish, high IQ player. I don't know what changed him into the player he is, but I can't say I am thrilled with the transformation!

 

[SIeepwalker]

CJ came out of college with the rep of being an unselfish

really ? I remember an article in one of the first years of CJ that has this quote from Stotts: "passing didn't come naturally to CJ"

 

[THE HCP]

One of the nastiest ally oops this season. Crazy thing is he didn't even actually dunk it!

 

[blue9]

ok...this might just be semantics but to me, defining a shooter HAS to account for efficiency. FT's are shots too...part of shooting. So when you compare players saying one is a better shooter, and the other is better at TS% and PPS, it seems contradictory. But as I said, maybe that's just a matter of definitions, and those gauges of TS% and PPS are better labeled as components of being a scorer. I'd allow for somebody suggesting that CJ is a better shooter as long as they admitted Williams was a better scorer. I wouldn't agree with it but it's a minor quibble

but if the CJ/Williams comparison is an issue for you, then how about CJ and Dame? CJ has better 3pt and 2 pt percentages, but Dame crushes CJ in TS% and PPS. That makes Dame a better shooter in my book, and certainly a much better scorer. There are just better results when Dame shoots...that makes him a better shooter IMO. In fact, if there is a definition of shooter that only accounts for 2pFG% and 3ptFG%, and nothing else, then scoring is a hell of a lot more important than shooting



you could say that about everybody though. CJ is a 4 year starter who has more than 6500 FGA's. He's 27 years old in his 6th NBA season after a 4 year college career. I have no reason to believe his coaching has not been adequate. That's a portrait of he-is-what-he-is



yeah, I mentioned that their roles are different. But Williams isn't an 18 minutes a game bench player. He's a 25-30 minutes a game 6th man; so I'm not sure how much either plays against starters vs 2nd unit players. Certainly CJ usually is in the game at the top of the 2nd Q and 4th Q, and that's generally when teams have more backups playing. And both CJ and Lou are usually on the floor in the last half of the 4th Q

IMO, there's a major difference between being a good shooter and being a good scorer. Both are good things, but different. Being a good shooter means being able to put the ball in the basket off a jump shot during the flow of the game and is best measured by raw FG%. That's CJ. Being a good scorer is putting points on the board in any fashion, measured by TS%. The leaders is TS% are never the best shooters in the league - I would venture a guess that the top 20 are all Cs and PFs. They get high percentage shots and lots of fouls, but are probably shit once you push them more than 5' from the hoop - certainly not good shooters. As you said, maybe it's semantics but I think it's an important distinction. I want a bit of both in my offense. Personally I prefer wings who can shoot to wings who can't, and I hate when wings just try to get fouled and get points at the FT line (Harden) - it's a bastardization of the game. On the flip, I like bigs who take high percentage, and high foul rate, shots.

Back to CJ/Lou. Again, their TS% is essentially the same. One gets more at the FT line, one gets more in the flow of the game. I don't see how swapping the two makes us better. Putting CJ in a 6th man role would be great, but trading him for a 6th man would not.

 

[illmatic99]

The team that's concerning to me is Houston. They've taken full advantage of OKC's recent slide by winning 8 straight. CP is rounding into form and their role players are playing well again.

 

[THE HCP]

The team that's concerning to me is Houston. They've taken full advantage of OKC's recent slide by winning 8 straight. CP is rounding into form and their role players are playing well again.

OKC and Houston worry me. They both have multiple superstars on their team that will get the benefit of call from the refs. I hope we end up playing Utah to be honest for that exact reason.

 

[illmatic99]

CJ came out of college with the rep of being an unselfish, high IQ player.

Not really.

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/cj-mccollum

Weaknesses: McCollum will need to further cultivate his lead guard and team running skills at the next level ... At this point, he profiles as more of a natural scoring, combo guard ... At 6’3, his primary position will need to be at the point ... 2.7:2.4 collegiate assist: turnover ratio spotlights his weaknesses in facilitating for teammates (as well as lack of a potent surrounding cast) ... His most popular media comparison, Damian Lillard, averaged 4 assists per game his senior year ...

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/C.J.-McCollum-5860

...McCollum has a true weakness on paper in this limited sample of games, it is that his profile reinforces that the role he filled was more aligned with playing off the ball than those of his peers. He did less creating for his teammates on the pick and roll than any player other than Lorenzo Brown at 2.6 pass outs to possessions per-game, well below the average of 6.1, and used screens without the ball to get open for 12% of his possessions, almost double the next closest player in this group.

 

[illmatic99]

OKC and Houston worry me. They both have multiple superstars on their team that will get the benefit of call from the refs. I hope we end up playing Utah to be honest for that exact reason.

Harden has consistently NOT gotten the whistle in the playoffs. Wes manhandled him a few yrs back and always got the benefit of the doubt. Same with OKC guys. Refs allow for more physicality in the playoffs. Same reason why Ricky and CP worry me defensively against Dame. Rubio shut down Russell last year in the playoffs. I don't think Westbrook is nearly as good of a defender as he's credited as.

 

[handiman]

I don't think Westbrook is nearly as good of a defender as he's credited as.

He was pretty tenacious earlier in his career, but he puts all that energy into the offensive side of the ball now that he's chasing a triple double every night.

 

[THE HCP]

Harden has consistently NOT gotten the whistle in the playoffs. Wes manhandled him a few yrs back and always got the benefit of the doubt. Same with OKC guys. Refs allow for more physicality in the playoffs. Same reason why Ricky and CP worry me defensively against Dame. Rubio shut down Russell last year in the playoffs. I don't think Westbrook is nearly as good of a defender as he's credited as.

I'll take your word for it. Just the thought of those guys complaining to the refs nonstop worries me.

 

[THE HCP]

He was pretty tenacious earlier in his career, but he puts all that energy into the offensive side of the ball now that he's chasing a triple double every night.

And remind me since the Boobie-Doctor isn't around anymore......him putting up historic numbers is a BAD thing right?

 

[THE HCP]

 

[THE HCP]

Uh oh, Klay calling out the fans? Never a good thing.......

 

[blue9]

Uh oh, Klay calling out the fans? Never a good thing.......

That dude is such a booger.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The team that's concerning to me is Houston. They've taken full advantage of OKC's recent slide by winning 8 straight. CP is rounding into form and their role players are playing well again.

They're not done either. Their schedule is soft, and Denver's is tough. Rockets will be the 2 seed when all is said and done.

Portland-OKC 4/5 matchup is a virtual certainty, unless the Blazers go on an absolute tear to close the season.

 

[Strenuus]

And remind me since the Boobie-Doctor isn't around anymore......him putting up historic numbers is a BAD thing right?

Has he won a championship? That's the only qualifer. If not, then yes, it's a bad thing.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Not really.

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/cj-mccollum


http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/C.J.-McCollum-5860

A player can be unselfish without being a great passer. The article you quote refers to him playing off the ball...not being the black hole/hero ball/iso addicted player he has become.

 

[hoopsjock]

A player can be unselfish without being a great passer. The article you quote refers to him playing off the ball...not being the black hole/hero ball/iso addicted player he has become.

I still remember CJ's first summer league. They started off trying to make him the primary ball handler and he wilted every time he got pressured and had a high turnover rate when he got trapped. It wasn't really until his MIP season that he vastly improved his handles and started breaking people off the dribble.

 

[wizenheimer]

IMO, there's a major difference between being a good shooter and being a good scorer. Both are good things, but different. Being a good shooter means being able to put the ball in the basket off a jump shot during the flow of the game and is best measured by raw FG%. That's CJ. Being a good scorer is putting points on the board in any fashion, measured by TS%. The leaders is TS% are never the best shooters in the league - I would venture a guess that the top 20 are all Cs and PFs. They get high percentage shots and lots of fouls, but are probably shit once you push them more than 5' from the hoop - certainly not good shooters. As you said, maybe it's semantics but I think it's an important distinction. I want a bit of both in my offense. Personally I prefer wings who can shoot to wings who can't, and I hate when wings just try to get fouled and get points at the FT line (Harden) - it's a bastardization of the game. On the flip, I like bigs who take high percentage, and high foul rate, shots.

it's true that if you count down the top-50 in TS%, a majority are bigs. But their are several wings and guards on the list

but if you want an apples-to-apples comparison, CJ is 51st among PG's and SG's and if you add SF's to the list, he's 84th. So, even when you eliminate bigs and confine to perimeter players, he's 84th out of 230; above average but a long way from elite. That wouldn't matter much except for the fact he's 15th out of 230 in salary. Elite salary for non-elite production. Of course, that's common in the NBA I guess

if you have a problem with TS%. how about points/shot?

Lillard 1.363
Layman 1.31
Aminu 1.307
Curry 1.228
Hood 1.202
CJ 1.186
Harkless 1.167 (1.296 last year)
Turner 1.09 (yeeeeesh)

Back to CJ/Lou. Again, their TS% is essentially the same. One gets more at the FT line, one gets more in the flow of the game. I don't see how swapping the two makes us better. Putting CJ in a 6th man role would be great, but trading him for a 6th man would not.

well, I did say I wouldn't trade CJ for Lou; but that's because I'm holding out the faint hope that CJ will be traded for a better return. And of course, the argument can be broadened to include salary. Lou as an 8M a year super sub is a bargain; CJ as and undersized non-all-star 28M/year SG is not a bargain

as for the other, sorry blue, but I don't buy this "flow of the game" stuff. When Lillard gets to the FT line it's almost always because he was fouled within the flow of the game. Sure, Harden is an extreme example, but drawing fouls has always been an important factor...and it will always be

it just seems like in order to prop up CJ you're trying to reduce the parameters of judgement to a narrow enough set of gauges he looks better than he is. I mean, as I said, CJ shoots better percentages than Dame and it's practically irrelevant. The object of shooting is to score points. Dame shooting yields much better results than CJ shooting. Fact. To me, that makes Dame a better shooter

 

[blue9]

it just seems like, in order to prop up CJ you're trying to reduce the parameters of judgement to a narrow enough set of gauges he looks better than he is.

And on the flip it seems like you broaden the parameters in order to make him look worse than he is. I compare a player to other players who are the same position - doesn't make sense to me to compare CJ to PGs and SFs. But hey, whatever. I think we're basically in agreement - Lou and CJ are similar players.

CJ is not even close to being a major problem. His salary could be argued to be detrimental, but I would venture that man, most (or even all?) teams have similar or worse contracts. CJ got overpaid coming off a rookie contract. That seems to be what happens in the NBA - teams pay for potential. Lou was a known commodity and got paid based what an old dude with no untapped potential should get paid.

Just as an aside since CJ's passing has been mentioned, not in response to you: CJ has averaged 5.3 APG in games Dame has sat out over the past two seasons. Not amazing, but not terrible.

 

[illmatic99]

They're not done either. Their schedule is soft, and Denver's is tough. Rockets will be the 2 seed when all is said and done.

Portland-OKC 4/5 matchup is a virtual certainty, unless the Blazers go on an absolute tear to close the season.

I just don't want us to drop to 6 or 7.