The Ringer: CJ for Aaron Gordon

[illmatic99]

"CJ needs to be traded, he's so inefficient"

Olshey trades CJ for Gordon.

"Great trade!" (Ignoring that Gordon is less efficient)

I think that's oversimplifying this.

CJ is a lead guard who is not being maximized here because he plays with Dame. Orlando has a massive void for a guy with his skills.

Gordon is a forward who is not being maximized there because of the glut of players in his position and the million different coaches he's had (along with the general stupidity and ineptitude that is Orlando). We too have a massive void for a player like him.

It makes more sense than you think.

It's not a horrible trade thought, but Gordon scares me. He is a bit of a tweener

yes, the good kind. Not the Tyrus Thomas kind. Tweeners are all the rage in the current NBA.

 

[tlongII]

I think that's oversimplifying this.

CJ is a lead guard who is not being maximized here because he plays with Dame. Orlando has a massive void for a guy with his skills.

Gordon is a forward who is not being maximized there because of the glut of players in his position and the million different coaches he's had (along with the general stupidity and ineptitude that is Orlando). We too have a massive void for a player like him.

It makes more sense than you think.

No it doesn't. Gordon is an elite athlete, but he's not an elite basketball player. CJ is an elite basketball player.

 

[illmatic99]

No it doesn't. Gordon is an elite athlete, but he's not an elite basketball player. CJ is an elite basketball player.

He's also four years younger and on a better contract.

 

[TBpup]

No it doesn't. Gordon is an elite athlete, but he's not an elite basketball player. CJ is an elite basketball player.

I would submit CJ is a very good offensive player but not elite. He's not shooting nearly well enough from '3' for his position to be elite and he doesn't get to the foul line much either. Then throw in his defense (or lack thereof) and "elite" starts to get farther away.

Tremendous offensive player and even better when he is 'the man', but that won't happen here in Portland so we end up with version B of him here.

 

[hoopsjock]

I think that's oversimplifying this.

CJ is a lead guard who is not being maximized here because he plays with Dame. Orlando has a massive void for a guy with his skills.

Gordon is a forward who is not being maximized there because of the glut of players in his position and the million different coaches he's had (along with the general stupidity and ineptitude that is Orlando). We too have a massive void for a player like him.

It makes more sense than you think.

Or it's just as likely that Gordon just isn't that good and that people are making excuses for him not putting in the work to be better.

The coaches are the reason he doesn't shoot well? The front office is to blame for his below average rebounding percentage despite having probably top-10 NBA athleticism and leaping ability?

 

[hoopsjock]

If CJ is going to be really good with his own team, why are we the ones having to pay Orlando a pick to add a bad contract?

 

[TBpup]

If CJ is going to be really good with his own team, why are we the ones having to pay Orlando a pick to add a bad contract?

I don't see anyone advocating the Blazers sending a pick other than the author advocating getting CJ to Orlando. CJ is the best offensive player of the group so no sending a pick. The CJ/Harkless for Gordon/Ross I do find intriguing enough to at least consider. Starting with, the Dame/CJ (regardless of how good they can be individually) have amounted to zero/zip/nada in terms of even a single Playoff victory in the last 2 seasons.

 

[oldfisherman]

CJ/Hark for Gordon/Ross

So much going on with this trade.

1) Olshey adding a first kills this deal.

2) What is the plan for Aminu? If we re-sign him, how much will he cost? If we let him go, is Gordon an upgrade? By how much?

3) This trade will help our luxury tax issue

4) Gordon is not elite, but he is versatile, on both ends of the floor. More versatile than CJ.

5) Gordon is not the guy, and did not play well in that role. But we have Dame for that role.

While the talent level may be close, this trade may balance our roster. Think building a roster more like the Bucks than trying to build a Warriors roster.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Tremendous offensive player and even better when he is 'the man', but that won't happen here in Portland so we end up with version B of him here.

If you had 5 good offensive players on one team, you would most likely end up with version B for all of them. and I would have no problem with that.
In my mind the only time redundancy is an issue is when one player is regulated to the bench because there is not enough time for him. Not the case here.

I am all for improving the team and if trading CJ is the way to do it.... fine. But this theory about how he and Dame are redundant is ridiculous. They don't play the same position! CJ's D is not the reason we struggle at times. True there is only one ball but we are not even close to that being a problem for the Blazers. They need more scorers not less. I would take Gordon on this team, but not for CJ.

 

[GDiama]

I don't think Gordon solves our issues, I don't believe he is worth his contract, but I also don't believe we can get anything better than that for CJ.

 

[hoopsjock]

I don't see anyone advocating the Blazers sending a pick other than the author advocating getting CJ to Orlando. CJ is the best offensive player of the group so no sending a pick. The CJ/Harkless for Gordon/Ross I do find intriguing enough to at least consider. Starting with, the Dame/CJ (regardless of how good they can be individually) have amounted to zero/zip/nada in terms of even a single Playoff victory in the last 2 seasons.

The article says we would "have" to include a 1st.

Why would it take CJ to get Gordon? The Magic traded Tobias Harris to Detroit for Ilyasova and Brandon Jennings. I know that was a different GM but my point is if someone is struggling it shouldn't take that much to get him.

 

[calvin natt]

No it doesn't. Gordon is an elite athlete, but he's not an elite basketball player. CJ is an elite basketball player.

Then why trade him?

 

[rotary111]

Add Vucevic to the trade and go big. There has been some rumors of him being moved at the trade deadline to open up time for their young bigs to develop. Nurk and Vucevic would dominate teams in the paint and Vucevic has an outside game so they could be on the court at the same time. Another year for Collins to develop without huge pressure. Boogie comes back today so there's that.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I think it's important to decipher made up trades and actual rumors. This one is just a made up trade (thus why it has been discussed ad nauseam already in the other threads).

It's a big no from me. Gordon is super overrated and not good enough to warrant giving up CJ, let alone adding a 1st round pick too (and I say this as someone who is now pro trading CJ). He's one of those super athletes who basically wastes their talent by not putting in the work to be great and just gets by on his gifts. Ross would be okay, especially compared to his mediocre career so far, but do you trust that these 44 games are his true self and not the prior 7 seasons? He's another player with all the tools to be great who didn't work hard enough. I don't like adding two of those guys.

I guess I wouldn't hate if it was CJ and Leonard/Harkless for Gordon and Ross but definitely not having to add more from our side. I'd rather explore other trades than take on Gordon.

I'd also rather explore other trades for CJ but if this is the best they could find, I would do it.

 

[oldfisherman]

I don't think Gordon solves our issues, I don't believe he is worth his contract, but I also don't believe we can get anything better than that for CJ.

And I do not believe CJ is worth his contract. The differance is.

Next season, CJ will cost us $8.2 million more than Gordon. $11.2 million more the following season.

 

[Propagandist]

There needs to be more "hell no" votes. If we are going to upgrade at PF, it needs to be an actual upgrade.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...minu&y2=2019&player_id2=aminual01&idx=players

This trade would be a recipe for more frustration. We need: compelling prospect or established player. I'd argue, and frankly the numbers would argue, that Aaron Gordon is neither.

 

[TBpup]

If you had 5 good offensive players on one team, you would most likely end up with version B for all of them. and I would have no problem with that.
In my mind the only time redundancy is an issue is when one player is regulated to the bench because there is not enough time for him. Not the case here.

I am all for improving the team and if trading CJ is the way to do it.... fine. But this theory about how he and Dame are redundant is ridiculous. They don't play the same position! CJ's D is not the reason we struggle at times. True there is only one ball but we are not even close to that being a problem for the Blazers. They need more scorers not less. I would take Gordon on this team, but not for CJ.

Dame and CJ are redundant in that they are both better when they are controlling the ball, both scoring guards and neither are very good defensive players. One smallish poor defensive guard you can hide. (Curry) 2 smallish poor defensive guards...that is much tougher. Add to it they are both better on-ball than off-ball and that creates an issue for the rest of the team if they tend towards their specific tendencies. Again, one player doing it is fine but if you have them both doing the same, it is problematic.

The article says we would "have" to include a 1st.

Yes, the article...which I promptly mentioned in my post as the author was the only one advocating it.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Dame and CJ are redundant in that they are both better when they are controlling the ball, both scoring guards and neither are very good defensive players. One smallish poor defensive guard you can hide. (Curry) 2 smallish poor defensive guards...that is much tougher. Add to it they are both better on-ball than off-ball and that creates an issue for the rest of the team if they tend towards their specific tendencies. Again, one player doing it is fine but if you have them both doing the same, it is problemati.

Agree to disagree. Our defense is not the problem. Our offense is the issue because of our forwards. Having two good on-ball players on the court at the same time is not a problem. Plus they both are good spot up shooters.

Look I agree there are a few other guards I would rather have matched up with Dame other than CJ. You get me one of those those FEW and I will be excited.

 

[calvin natt]

Gordon is 23, Aminu 28. Just thought people need to understand this.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Jake is 6'9" 215
Aaron is 6'9" 220

Granted Gordon has a longer wing (2" more) and I think you can play them together. But for you redundancy haters, aren't they basically the same player?
And for you who focus on contracts, isn't Jake a lot cheaper?

 

[TBpup]

Jake is 6'9" 215
Aaron is 6'9" 220

Granted Gordon has a longer wing (2" more) and I think you can play them together. But for you redundancy haters, aren't they basically the same player?
And for you who focus on contracts, isn't Jake a lot cheaper?

Not both ball dominant and not both such poor defenders. So yes, some similarities but I would submit they are in more positive ways.

I'm still trying to find the smallish, very good offensively, below average defensively back-court that was very successful. The most obvious is Thomas/Dumars but Joe was a top defender so that is a massive difference. Other than that, perhaps someone else can thing of more solid examples.

 

[illmatic99]

Not both ball dominant and not both such poor defenders. So yes, some similarities but I would submit they are in more positive ways.

I'm still trying to find the smallish, very good offensively, below average defensively back-court that was very successful. The most obvious is Thomas/Dumars but Joe was a top defender so that is a massive difference. Other than that, perhaps someone else can thing of more solid examples.

All these duos have made at least a conference finals
Kyrie and JR
Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter
Nash and JRich
Mo Williams and Delonte West
Jamaal Tinsley and Reggie Miller
Nash and Finley
Damon and Smitty?

 

[dviss1]

Not to derail the thread, but there is no way Nurkic and Vucevic can share the floor without being on opposite teams.

Let's just kill that notion.

 

[hoopsjock]

There needs to be more "hell no" votes. If we are going to upgrade at PF, it needs to be an actual upgrade.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Aaron Gordon&player_id1_select=Aaron Gordon&player_id1=gordoaa01&y1=2019&player_id2_hint=Al-Farouq Aminu&player_id2_select=Al-Farouq Aminu&y2=2019&player_id2=aminual01&idx=players

This trade would be a recipe for more frustration. We need: compelling prospect or established player. I'd argue, and frankly the numbers would argue, that Aaron Gordon is neither.

Exactly this. If we aren't getting an established star (probably unlikely) for CJ, I'd rather have a prospect that is still on his rookie deal and/or a potential lottery pick.

 

[blue9]

Not just no, but hell no.

 

[blue9]

Dame and CJ are redundant in that they are both better when they are controlling the ball...

I suspect this is not true. My suspicions tell me both are most effective shooting off the catch rather than off the dribble. Unfortunately, until we get a new coach we won't find out.

 

[TBpup]

All these duos have made at least a conference finals
Kyrie and JR
Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter
Nash and JRich
Mo Williams and Delonte West
Jamaal Tinsley and Reggie Miller
Nash and Finley
Damon and Smitty?

Kyrie and JR (JR is 6'6")
Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter (Carter is 6'6")
Nash and JRich (Richardson is 6'6")
Mo Williams and Delonte West (this is by far the closest)
Jamaal Tinsley and Reggie Miller (Miller is 6'7")
Nash and Finley (Finley is 6'7")
Damon and Smitty? (Steve Smith is 6'8")

Thank you for helping to prove the point. The only smallish duo on there is Mo Williams and Delonte West who were very similar in size to Dame/CJ.

Two big differences:

• Neither of them was the go to guy
• They played with perhaps the greatest or 2nd greatest player of all time.

Without LeBron, that smallish duo was complete trash. Still open to suggestions or examples.

 

[dviss1]

All these duos have made at least a conference finals
Kyrie and JR (LeBron??)
Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter (Carter not ball dominant and is a solid defender)
Nash and JRich (Jrich played very well off ball)
Mo Williams and Delonte West (you coulda had something here... but... LEBRON??)
Jamaal Tinsley and Reggie Miller (Reggie Miller is the best off the ball player in NBA history)
Nash and Finley (Finley was a post up guard who played great off ball)
Damon and Smitty (Smitty was like a less athletic Finley)

FTFY

 

[TBpup]

I suspect this is not true. My suspicions tell me both are most effective shooting off the catch rather than off the dribble. Unfortunately, until we get a new coach we won't find out.

I completely agree that they may be their most effective in those situations....but that is not what their tendencies are. I didn't have too look through many box scores to see many 12-15 for 40+ shooting nights when other players were shooting much better but got less than 10 shots.

 

[illmatic99]

Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done. 60% of the starting lineup can be built to mitigate the guards' weaknesses. Hell, our defense last year wasn't that bad. We were 7th in defensive rating.

People used to say Golden State would never win as a 3pt shooting team until Curry went supernova. It takes an innovative mind to come up with solutions for these kinds of problems. Unfortunately for us, we don't really have that in our front office or on the bench.