The Ringer: CJ for Aaron Gordon

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CJ for Gordon

  • Total voters
    48
dviss1 said:
FTFY
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@TBpup asked for "smallish, very good offensively, below average defensively back-court that was very successful."

Obviously most SGs are around 6'5 and higher, so smallish is hard to find. But the guys I pointed out were all good offensively and generally shit defensively.
 
yuyuza1 said:
All these duos have made at least a conference finals
Kyrie and JR
Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter
Nash and JRich
Mo Williams and Delonte West
Jamaal Tinsley and Reggie Miller
Nash and Finley
Damon and Smitty?
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he said "smallish" which means CJ, and eliminates just about all those combos. If you add another qualification, that being both on near max-deals and both leading the team in usage, and both being options 1a, and 1b, there are no examples.

I can only think of two small back courts that had any real success. One was Thomas and Dumars. But c'mon, Thomas was a 12-time all-star. and 4 times was 1st team all-NBA, and twice more was 2nd team. He was also solid on defense on the best defensive team in the NBA. Dumars was a 6 time all-star and made 1st team defense all-NBA 5 times. It's laughable to even think Dame/CJ compare in any way

the other small back court, and they won a championship, is ironically a Blazer one: Dave Twardzick and Lionell Hollins. Of course, they were down the pecking order of a team with Walton and Lucas. And Hollins was an all-NBA defender; and finally, the NBA has changed over 40 years
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Agree to disagree. Our defense is not the problem. Our offense is the issue because of our forwards. Having two good on-ball players on the court at the same time is not a problem. Plus they both are good spot up shooters.

Look I agree there are a few other guards I would rather have matched up with Dame other than CJ. You get me one of those those FEW and I will be excited.
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I go back to our best lineup of the Dame Era:

Lillard
Matthews
Batum
Aldridge
Lopez

What made them so good? When they needed to lockdown on Defense they could, repeatedly. I want that again.
 
yuyuza1 said:
Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done. 60% of the starting lineup can be built to mitigate the guards' weaknesses. Hell, our defense last year wasn't that bad. We were 7th in defensive rating.

People used to say Golden State would never win as a 3pt shooting team until Curry went supernova. It takes an innovative mind to come up with solutions for these kinds of problems. Unfortunately for us, we don't really have that in our front office or on the bench.
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Agreed, just that it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't. But we've seen enough iterations of Dame/CJ not even approaching contender status that is seems very unlikey by this point, that will change.

As for GState, it wasn't so much an innovative mind as it was Curry becoming a mid-40% 3-pt shooter jacking up an average of over 10 '3's per game. Neither Dame nor CJ are anywhere close to that type of efficiency. Dame/CJ .523 and .512 respectively in eFG this year.....Curry is a staggering .625...and it is not just this year that there is a large gap.

It also took them getting rid of duo smallish guard Monta Ellis and replacing him with a 6'7" 3nD specialist.
 
yuyuza1 said:
@TBpup asked for "smallish, very good offensively, below average defensively back-court that was very successful."

Obviously most SGs are around 6'5 and higher, so smallish is hard to find. But the guys I pointed out were all good offensively and generally shit defensively.
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Exactly
 
Detroit is actually an interesting team for CJ. It sounds like their owner is still in win now mode and not willing to accept that he needs to blow it up. If that's the case they desperately need a lead guard to go with their Griffin/Drummond front line. They currently have the 9th pick in the draft. Looking at the standings they are going to land somewhere in the 6-10 range if they miss the playoffs or the 15-17 range if they make it. Getting that pick along with a Luke Kennard (admittedly horrible so far but could in theory have similar shooting numbers to CJ) would be something to consider. The only problem is they don't have big expiring contracts so we'd have to find a 3rd team for Reggie Jackson. Would Orlando take him and the lesser of our two 1sts for Gordon? Would Atlanta take him for Bazemore? Or would they do it for Bazemore, Prince, and our 2020 pick?
 
TBpup said:
Agreed, just that it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't. But we've seen enough iterations of Dame/CJ not even approaching contender status that is seems very unlikey by this point, that will change.

As for GState, it wasn't so much an innovative mind as it was Curry becoming a mid-40% 3-pt shooter jacking up an average of over 10 '3's per game. Neither Dame nor CJ are anywhere close to that type of efficiency. Dame/CJ .523 and .512 respectively in eFG this year.....Curry is a staggering .625...and it is not just this year that there is a large gap.

It also took them getting rid of duo smallish guard Monta Ellis and replacing him with a 6'7" 3nD specialist.
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If it weren't for Jerry West/Kerr, they would have Kevin Love instead of Klay Thompson with Monta Ellis as Steph's backcourt mate. Takes some vision. Back in 2011, no one saw this three point barrage coming. You just didn't win without legit post threats. Nash and D'Antoni tried damn hard in Phoenix but could never get over the hump. Who knew all you needed was more volume?

And I disagree with the notion that we have tried multiple iterations with Dame/CJ. We've just done the same thing for three years. We don't know what someone outside of Neil/Terry can come up with.
 
TBpup said:
I completely agree that they may be their most effective in those situations....but that is not what their tendencies are. I didn't have too look through many box scores to see many 12-15 for 40+ shooting nights when other players were shooting much better but got less than 10 shots.
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I'm not opposed to trading CJ. I'm just opposed to trading him for an average PF.

Whether you (the general "you") like CJ or not, he's an above average SG. He's not being utilized effectively, which may make you think he's not - but he is. The league has always been dominated by wing talent (either SG or SF). We're already weak at SF. Weakening ourselves at SG (thus gutting all wing talent on the team) in order for a slight bump at PF - the least impactful position in the NBA - is not a good use of our assets.
 
yuyuza1 said:
Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done. 60% of the starting lineup can be built to mitigate the guards' weaknesses. Hell, our defense last year wasn't that bad. We were 7th in defensive rating.

People used to say Golden State would never win as a 3pt shooting team until Curry went supernova. It takes an innovative mind to come up with solutions for these kinds of problems. Unfortunately for us, we don't really have that in our front office or on the bench.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Who cares what happened in the past. This is a different NBA with more of an emphasis on 3 point shooting. (and different rules on D) Cleveland and GS have dominated the finals the last few years. Put either Durant or LeBron on the Blazers and I guarantee they would have just as good of a chance to win it all as anyone else.
But even then you still need two other starters and a bench. Their combined size is not the issue. Just fucking get a big guard who can play with both of them. 96 minutes per game is enough time to keep all three happy. I think that was Neil's hope with ET. Good idea, wrong guy.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Exactly. Who cares what happened in the past. This is a different NBA with more of an emphasis on 3 point shooting. (and different rules on D) Cleveland and GS have dominated the finals the last few years. Put either Durant or LeBron on the Blazers and I guarantee they would have just as good of a chance to win it all as anyone else.
But even then you still need two other starters and a bench. Their combined size is not the issue. Just fucking get a big guard who can play with both of them. 96 minutes per game is enough time to keep all three happy. I think that was Neil's hope with ET. Good idea, wrong guy.
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We need someone who can think long term. I said earlier today the NBA is gonna be dominated by big, versatile guards/forwards who can lead offenses. I would have given up nearly our whole team for Luka last summer. Ben Simmons is another. We need one of these guys.
 
blue9 said:
Wrong guy? Or wrongest guy?
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Yeah you have to be able to shoot from deep these days if you are a guard in the NBA. Not only for Terry but for most teams. So yeah....pretty wrong.
He is still not a bad player. Just a bad contract.
 
yuyuza1 said:
We need someone who can think long term. I said earlier today the NBA is gonna be dominated by big, versatile guards/forwards who can lead offenses. I would have given up nearly our whole team for Luka last summer. Ben Simmons is another. We need one of these guys.
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Guys Simmons, and Giannis need to be surrounded by outside shooters. So yeah they would fit great with CJ and Dame.
Atlanta was idiotic for passing on Luka. Anyone who watched his film could see that. But those guys are not in every draft. So how long term can you go?
And CJ is not going to get one of them in return. Teams who are in position to draft one already suck so an expensive vet does not do them any good. They need to go young.
 
All this Gordon talk is awesome and all but what about the Ross part, he’s not a scrub. However I completely agree adding a 1 would be stupid and a deal breaker.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Jake is 6'9" 215
Aaron is 6'9" 220

Granted Gordon has a longer wing (2" more) and I think you can play them together. But for you redundancy haters, aren't they basically the same player?
And for you who focus on contracts, isn't Jake a lot cheaper?
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Jake would honestly be a better PF than Gordon.
 
Were not going to trade CJ. Let's talk about ideas that could possibly happen?
 
I’ve decided I hate this trade idea, having a 0 and 00 on the floor together will look horrible.
 
LayneStaley said:
All this Gordon talk is awesome and all but what about the Ross part, he’s not a scrub. However I completely agree adding a 1 would be stupid and a deal breaker.
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Trading good starters for mediocre role players is a backwards step, no matter how many role players you include. Ross was terrible the 3 seasons prior to this one, so hes not a game-changer. I cant believe Blazer fans want this.
 
BonesJones said:
Trading good starters for mediocre role players is a backwards step, no matter how many role players you include. Ross was terrible the 3 seasons prior to this one, so hes not a game-changer. I cant believe Blazer fans want this.
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Isnt the common theme the team who gets the best player usually wins in the trade?

I wouldn't do this if we were a lottery team looking to shed salary even.
 
If Harkless and Layman continue to play like they are I am seeing Olshey not pulling any trades at the deadline. If they do it might be for upgrade for backup center or backup power forward. If they go after Prince you get more of spot or iso type of player where Harkless and Layman they little movement to get there points not saying Prince can't do things just I haven't seen it.
 
Yes! It would be a good risk and this team is on a treadmill anyway.
 
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