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I'm sure most of y'all would hate this as not being enough return for CJ, but I wouldn't be mad at a deal like this (maybe could also include a pick swap with NY?). If Randle is capable of returning to the perimeter shooting he showed last year in New Orleans, I think he could be an excellent 4 alongside Nurkic. An 8 man rotation of Dame/Trent/Ariza/Randle/Nurk with Payton/Collins and whatever wing we might be able to sign with the MLE would be pretty decent.
 
RR7 said:
Cj for randle? Good God no. They'd be happy to move Randle for free.
Click to expand...
I'd probably be happy to move CJ for free, but that's beside the point. IMO, this is more CJ for a starting PF, a solid backup PG who can defend (he's been a starter, but he really shouldn't be), and a move up to #8. 'Course, if they'd be that happy to part with Randle, then maybe we'd need the 8 without giving up our 16 to make the compensation reasonable.

All I know is that it balances the lineup, strengthens the bench, and provides a ton of financial flexibility after next year.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
View attachment 33818

I'm sure most of y'all would hate this as not being enough return for CJ, but I wouldn't be mad at a deal like this (maybe could also include a pick swap with NY?). If Randle is capable of returning to the perimeter shooting he showed last year in New Orleans, I think he could be an excellent 4 alongside Nurkic. An 8 man rotation of Dame/Trent/Ariza/Randle/Nurk with Payton/Collins and whatever wing we might be able to sign with the MLE would be pretty decent.
Click to expand...
I've been thinking we ought to do something similar to this.
Here is my ideal trade:
upload_2020-10-1_9-53-49.png
Knicks do this to get the 'face of the franchise' player. CJ would likely get an all-star selection being in NYC (whether deserved or not)...
Bulls do this to 'go young' and to cut salary. If Knox can figure it out, he'd be a good piece with their core. If not, I doubt the Bulls would keep Porter long term anyways.
Portland does this to shore up both Forward positions & have flexibility for the future.


Then in the draft, get Halliburton (#8) & Jalen Smith (#16)

In FA, we get Cousins (BAE - 2 @ $3.5M), and resign Gabriel (2 @ Minimum), and find the best wing MLE player available
We just cut Mario...

Roll with the roster of:

PG: Dame, Halliburton, Simons
SG: Hood, Trent, (Simons)
SF: Porter, MLE Wing, Little
PF: Randle, Collins, Gabriel, Smith
C: Nurk, Cousins, (Collins)
 

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tester551 said:
I've been thinking we ought to do something similar to this.
Here is my ideal trade:
View attachment 33820
Knicks do this to get the 'face of the franchise' player. CJ would likely get an all-star selection being in NYC (whether deserved or not)...
Bulls do this to 'go young' and to cut salary. If Knox can figure it out, he'd be a good piece with their core. If not, I doubt the Bulls would keep Porter long term anyways.
Portland does this to shore up both Forward positions & have flexibility for the future.


Then in the draft, get Halliburton (#8) & Jalen Smith (#16)

In FA, we get Cousins (BAE - 2 @ $3.5M), and resign Gabriel (2 @ Minimum), and find the best wing MLE player available
We just cut Mario...

Roll with the roster of:

PG: Dame, Halliburton, Simons
SG: Hood, Trent, (Simons)
SF: Porter, MLE Wing, Little
PF: Randle, Collins, Gabriel, Smith
C: Nurk, Cousins, (Collins)
Click to expand...

Hmm. I actually don't hate this idea at all. Not sure if the Boogie piece is likely, but there will be plenty of other guys that could be obtained for a vet's min contract. Nice job!
 
tester551 said:
I've been thinking we ought to do something similar to this.
Here is my ideal trade:
View attachment 33820
Knicks do this to get the 'face of the franchise' player. CJ would likely get an all-star selection being in NYC (whether deserved or not)...
Bulls do this to 'go young' and to cut salary. If Knox can figure it out, he'd be a good piece with their core. If not, I doubt the Bulls would keep Porter long term anyways.
Portland does this to shore up both Forward positions & have flexibility for the future.


Then in the draft, get Halliburton (#8) & Jalen Smith (#16)

In FA, we get Cousins (BAE - 2 @ $3.5M), and resign Gabriel (2 @ Minimum), and find the best wing MLE player available
We just cut Mario...

Roll with the roster of:

PG: Dame, Halliburton, Simons
SG: Hood, Trent, (Simons)
SF: Porter, MLE Wing, Little
PF: Randle, Collins, Gabriel, Smith
C: Nurk, Cousins, (Collins)
Click to expand...
So the difference between mine and yours is that instead of getting Payton to back up Dame, we also give up Ariza and get Porter? I don't see the benefit.
 
upload_2020-10-1_9-58-22.png
upload_2020-10-1_9-54-23.png porter
upload_2020-10-1_9-55-37.pngariza

most glaring difference to me is the 3pt% and EFg%
edit and age
editX2 probably should have just tried to trade for porter straight across young whiteside @ deadline. acquisition costs would have been less
PtldPlatypus said:
So the difference between mine and yours is that instead of getting Payton to back up Dame, we also give up Ariza and get Porter? I don't see the benefit.
Click to expand...
 
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lawai'a said:
View attachment 33829
View attachment 33827 porter
View attachment 33828ariza

most glaring difference to me is the 3pt% and EFg%
edit and age
editX2 probably should have just tried to trade for porter straight across young whiteside @ deadline. acquisition costs would have been less
Click to expand...
The problem with Porter is that his salary is huge, and he's missed a ton of games due to a string of injuries the past couple years. Ariza may be older, but at least he's reliable.

tester551 said:
When you look at the advanced stats, Porter exceeds Ariza in most of the important ones.
View attachment 33830
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I don't think anyone doubts Porter is a better player when healthy, but would he be better enough--and play often enough--to be worth $27M to this squad?
 
PtldPlatypus said:
The problem with Porter is that his salary is huge, and he's missed a ton of games due to a string of injuries the past couple years. Ariza may be older, but at least he's reliable.

I don't think anyone doubts Porter is a better player when healthy, but would he be better enough--and play often enough--to be worth $27M to this squad?
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The trade I proposed increased Portland's payroll by ~$5M. So the question should be: Is Porter worth $5M more than Ariza. Given his age and the opportunity to re-sign him (to a lower $), I think the answer is yes.
 
tester551 said:
The trade I proposed increased Portland's payroll by ~$5M. So the question should be: Is Porter worth $5M more than Ariza. Given his age and the opportunity to re-sign him (to a lower $), I think the answer is yes.
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I wasn't analyzing your trade in a vacuum--I was contrasting it with mine directly above, which would net us Elfrid Payton as a backup PG, and lower our payroll by $2M. So essentially I'm asking, is Otto Porter over Ariza worth $7M and a legit backup for Dame?
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Not endorsing, just reporting:

View attachment 33800

Sixers could throw a pick to the Pacers, too.

Blazers starters: Dame, Oladipo, Trent, Harris, Nurk.
Blazers bench: pretty threadbare.
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I don't think this trade has to leave our bench too bad because our MLE, Hood coming back, Nas and Wenyen will all be able to contribute and a lot of people in here think Melo is going to come back for the min. However I don't know if we get Oladipo for Zach, Ariza, Ant and the 21st pick. If we were going to do a trade with the Sixers for CJ and get Harris back I still think we would could and should just go with:

CJ and Ariza

for

Harris, Richardson and the 21st pick.

I honestly think both teams do that and we wouldn't have to give up as much. I realize that Richardson isn't as flashy of a pickup as Oladipo but I think he fits better on the perimeter with Dame and Gary. I think we would then just use our MLE on a PG and then if we get a good enough backup PG for part of the MLE, get a big with the rest. I don't think we need two or three rookies and I think future picks wouldn't be great, so I would try to package picks together to move up to a place in the draft where we get a player that has more potential to make an impact in the future maybe someone who has slid down the draft quite a bit.

Dame, Gary, Richardson, Harris, Nurk, Zach, Backup PG, hopefully Hood, with Nas, a re-signed Wenyen, whatever rookie we get, and Ant competing for minutes after that. I really think especially if Hood is healthy, that is a contending lineup/rotation. Some might ask who our second guy who can get their own shot is and I would say that both Harris and Richardson are capable of doing that although Harris would be the guy with that role on this team. On offense Dame would do even more than he does now probably getting more assists not necessarily having to score more and then Nurk and Harris would be options 2a and 2b. On defense we would be worlds better our perimeter would no longer be a weakness but a strength and Harris is much better suited to defend the 4 than the three... he would be good and Nurk would be really good. Zach, a solid PG and Hood off the bench would be a stronger bench than we had this season, plus I know that Wenyen and Nas are going to be ready to contribute and if we can trade up for the right guy who falls that player might be ready to contribute too. Obviously after the trade we would try and get extensions done with Gary and Richardson.
 
Ok, here's my contribution to trade talk involving Blazers.
New York needs star scoring power in the garden, so I think CJ would be the perfect match in New York. He would probably be an all star in NYC and he's also a media disciple, what better place for him to be? Fans there would love CJ and he would leverage the market to the max and not have to be in Dames shadow anymore.

CJ & Little for Randle, Ellington, & Smith or Nit
 
Hoopguru said:
Ok, here's my contribution to trade talk involving Blazers.
New York needs star scoring power in the garden, so I think CJ would be the perfect match in New York. He would probably be an all star in NYC and he's also a media disciple, what better place for him to be? Fans there would love CJ and he would leverage the market to the max and not have to be in Dames shadow anymore.

CJ & Little for Randle, Ellington, & Smith or Nit
Click to expand...
I want Payton in any CJ for Randle+ deal.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
View attachment 33818

I'm sure most of y'all would hate this as not being enough return for CJ, but I wouldn't be mad at a deal like this (maybe could also include a pick swap with NY?). If Randle is capable of returning to the perimeter shooting he showed last year in New Orleans, I think he could be an excellent 4 alongside Nurkic. An 8 man rotation of Dame/Trent/Ariza/Randle/Nurk with Payton/Collins and whatever wing we might be able to sign with the MLE would be pretty decent.
Click to expand...
You are correct, sir.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
And if the #8 accompanied (without the 16 outgoing)?
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See, I think the Knicks would give up Payton, Randle and #8 for CJ. They would then have CJ and Barrett in the back court and over 30 million to spend on free agents. If they started Bobby Portis at PF they could probably add a guy like Jerami Grant to start at SF and still have enough cash to get one of the bigger name Cs on the market like Gasol, Drummond or even our former guy Hassan. If it was McCollum, Barrett, Grant, Portis, Drummond, MLE, and either Smith or Ntilikina stepped up the Knicks would be a big time team in the East. We would have an opportunity to trade the 8th and 16th pick to go up and get someone higher that could make a difference on this team. Then we'd still have our full MLE to get another rotation player or two. I think we would be a far better team than we were this season and a better team than we were in the bubble. Dame, Gary, Ariza, Randle, Nurk, Payton, Zach, Hoodie, #4 pick, MLE, Little. That's a better starting lineup in my opinion and by far a better bench than we've ever had with a Dame led team.

For the record I would still rather trade CJ and Ariza for Harris, Richardson and the 21st pick but that's a completely different trade.
 
blazerkor said:
See, I think the Knicks would give up Payton, Randle and #8 for CJ.
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I'd love that if it were possible. Honestly, that seems super imbalanced for us, but maybe I'm just undervaluing CJ.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
And if the #8 accompanied (without the 16 outgoing)?
Click to expand...
Still no. I think that those two players are actually subtraction by addition. Randle's a me-first, no-defense stat-chaser, and Payton can't shoot, which is a deathknell in the NBA now.
 
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PtldPlatypus said:
I'd love that if it were possible. Honestly, that seems super imbalanced for us, but maybe I'm just undervaluing CJ.
Click to expand...

Rastapopoulos said:
Still no. I think that those two players are actually subtraction by addition. Randle's a me-first, no-defense stat-chaser, and Payton can't shoot, which is a deathknell in the NBA now.
Click to expand...

This is the hallmark of a deal that should happen. One guy in here thinks the Knicks get screwed, another guy in here thinks we get screwed and I think both teams get better. @Rastapopoulos I see your complaints and think there is some validity to them but I do think you need to watch some film. Randle is incredibly capable as a defender on the perimeter and in the paint, he also has the athleticism to transition from one to the other. He has really good hands defensively and doesn't foul a lot. He's also a rebound machine. On offense the guy is very good... again I know his numbers don't show it but he has a really nice jumper with three point range, he just can't shoot them contested. He can handle the ball but shouldn't as much as he has had to on both the Knicks and Lakers. He is a good passer when he keeps the play in front of him. He scores in the paint like an athletic ZBo. The problem with him this last season was the team he was playing on. He was their first option and he's just not that. If Dame is initiating the offense and Nurk is our primary inside scorer Randle will be able to do a lot of good things for us offensively. I think that Randle would be a huge upgrade from Zach at PF and that makes Zach a monumental upgrade from anything we had on the bench at PF and C last season. In this trade our front court gets much better. As far as Payton is concerned we don't need another shooter, we need a play maker and defender off the bench. We have Dame, Gary, Ariza and Hoodie who all play on the perimeter and can all hit the three, we can afford to have a legitimate backup PG that doesn't shoot well... he's not starting. We also get the 8th pick in a less than spectacular draft but it's still the 8th pick.

I know I just made your argument for you @PtldPlatypus but I really believe that the Knicks need perimeter scoring, I think they need someone who will run their offense, they will have the cap space to add another major piece to CJ and all of their young talent. I do think if CJ was given the Knicks as his team, he would lead them to the playoffs consistently. I think CJ has the offensive game and mindset to handle leading the Knicks. If a few of their young players develop, CJ does what I think he is capable of and they get the right complementary piece in free agency they could really make some noise. That's more than what they look like they will do with their current roster even if you add one of the free agents in their price range that are out there.
 
blazerkor said:
This is the hallmark of a deal that should happen. One guy in here thinks the Knicks get screwed, another guy in here thinks we get screwed and I think both teams get better. @Rastapopoulos I see your complaints and think there is some validity to them but I do think you need to watch some film. Randle is incredibly capable as a defender on the perimeter and in the paint, he also has the athleticism to transition from one to the other. He has really good hands defensively and doesn't foul a lot. He's also a rebound machine. On offense the guy is very good... again I know his numbers don't show it but he has a really nice jumper with three point range, he just can't shoot them contested. He can handle the ball but shouldn't as much as he has had to on both the Knicks and Lakers. He is a good passer when he keeps the play in front of him. He scores in the paint like an athletic ZBo. The problem with him this last season was the team he was playing on. He was their first option and he's just not that. If Dame is initiating the offense and Nurk is our primary inside scorer Randle will be able to do a lot of good things for us offensively. I think that Randle would be a huge upgrade from Zach at PF and that makes Zach a monumental upgrade from anything we had on the bench at PF and C last season. In this trade our front court gets much better. As far as Payton is concerned we don't need another shooter, we need a play maker and defender off the bench. We have Dame, Gary, Ariza and Hoodie who all play on the perimeter and can all hit the three, we can afford to have a legitimate backup PG that doesn't shoot well... he's not starting. We also get the 8th pick in a less than spectacular draft but it's still the 8th pick.

I know I just made your argument for you @PtldPlatypus but I really believe that the Knicks need perimeter scoring, I think they need someone who will run their offense, they will have the cap space to add another major piece to CJ and all of their young talent. I do think if CJ was given the Knicks as his team, he would lead them to the playoffs consistently. I think CJ has the offensive game and mindset to handle leading the Knicks. If a few of their young players develop, CJ does what I think he is capable of and they get the right complementary piece in free agency they could really make some noise. That's more than what they look like they will do with their current roster even if you add one of the free agents in their price range that are out there.
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I think you articulated all my thoughts on that proposal pretty much perfectly.
 
blazerkor said:
How the fuck can you value a stat that shows that CJ's contributions are equal on defense and offense? Surely you recognize that CJ is a far superior offensive player than he is a defensive player, right? So that stat has to be garbage, right?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call it garbage, but for CJ it's definitely an outlier. ESPN's calculations of RPM have become real noisy since John Hollinger left

it's the only stat that makes CJ look good. All the others, PER, TS%, Ast%, winshares, BPM, VORP show CJ as only a little above average. And the play-type stats at NBA.com show the same thing

so when about a dozen different kinds of stats show a player as a little or a bit more above average, and one stat shows him well above average, you have to be skeptical about that one stat

CJ thrives off of volume opportunity; dominating the ball, burning shot clock, and taking lots of shots. But he's not an efficient player at all

by the way, RPM says these guys are better than Dame:

Kyle Lowry, PG Jayson Tatum, PF Duncan Robinson, SG Joel Embiid, C Russell Westbrook, PG Khris Middleton, SF Christian Wood, PF Zion Williamson, SF Kristaps Porzingis, PF
 
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blazerkor said:
How the fuck can you value a stat that shows that CJ's contributions are equal on defense and offense? Surely you recognize that CJ is a far superior offensive player than he is a defensive player, right? So that stat has to be garbage, right?
Click to expand...
Wow, with a single insight you have destroyed an entire stat!
 
blazerkor said:
This is the hallmark of a deal that should happen. One guy in here thinks the Knicks get screwed, another guy in here thinks we get screwed and I think both teams get better. @Rastapopoulos I see your complaints and think there is some validity to them but I do think you need to watch some film. Randle is incredibly capable as a defender on the perimeter and in the paint, he also has the athleticism to transition from one to the other. He has really good hands defensively and doesn't foul a lot. He's also a rebound machine. On offense the guy is very good... again I know his numbers don't show it but he has a really nice jumper with three point range, he just can't shoot them contested. He can handle the ball but shouldn't as much as he has had to on both the Knicks and Lakers. He is a good passer when he keeps the play in front of him. He scores in the paint like an athletic ZBo. The problem with him this last season was the team he was playing on. He was their first option and he's just not that. If Dame is initiating the offense and Nurk is our primary inside scorer Randle will be able to do a lot of good things for us offensively. I think that Randle would be a huge upgrade from Zach at PF and that makes Zach a monumental upgrade from anything we had on the bench at PF and C last season. In this trade our front court gets much better. As far as Payton is concerned we don't need another shooter, we need a play maker and defender off the bench. We have Dame, Gary, Ariza and Hoodie who all play on the perimeter and can all hit the three, we can afford to have a legitimate backup PG that doesn't shoot well... he's not starting. We also get the 8th pick in a less than spectacular draft but it's still the 8th pick.

I know I just made your argument for you @PtldPlatypus but I really believe that the Knicks need perimeter scoring, I think they need someone who will run their offense, they will have the cap space to add another major piece to CJ and all of their young talent. I do think if CJ was given the Knicks as his team, he would lead them to the playoffs consistently. I think CJ has the offensive game and mindset to handle leading the Knicks. If a few of their young players develop, CJ does what I think he is capable of and they get the right complementary piece in free agency they could really make some noise. That's more than what they look like they will do with their current roster even if you add one of the free agents in their price range that are out there.
Click to expand...
There are some guys who can put up stats but nobody (but terrible franchises) wants. Randle is one of them. Maybe he'll work it out - Zach Randolph did. We'll see. All I know is that he hasn't yet.
 
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