Ukraine conflict

[Eastoff]

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldn...kraine-20140305,0,5215300.story#axzz2vB6xrJ7C

An anti-submarine boat may have been the first casualty of the Russian incursion into Crimea, but it was hardly an act of violence, much less war: The Russian navy sank one of its own, junked vessels to create an obstacle, a Ukrainian official said Wednesday.

 

[Eastoff]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/obam...an-extraordinary-threat-to-national-security/

No military action is being requested.

The order allows the administration to impose visa restrictions on Russians and Crimeans which are identified as threats to Ukraine’s security or territorial integrity. The order also paves the way for the imposition of sanctions on individuals the government determines are responsible for “undermining democratic processes or institutions in Ukraine.”

 

[Eastoff]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/06/us-ukraine-crisis-obama-china-idUSBREA2508E20140306

- China agrees with the United States that the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine must be respected in its dispute with Russia, the White House said in statement on Wednesday after top-level contacts between the two countries.

That is different information than I had previously heard about China's stance.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm no fan of Putin, but he's so clearly in the right on this one.

There's a coup, overthrowing the rightful government that was there. For who knows what reason, we jump all over the new regime as if it's legit, and we didn't waste any time really thinking about what the consequences of that are.

What I'd like to see is the UN send in guys to assure any voting that goes on is on the up and up. I bet Putin would go for that.

 

[BlazerWookee]

I'm no fan of Putin, but he's so clearly in the right on this one.

There's a coup, overthrowing the rightful government that was there. For who knows what reason, we jump all over the new regime as if it's legit, and we didn't waste any time really thinking about what the consequences of that are.

What I'd like to see is the UN send in guys to assure any voting that goes on is on the up and up. I bet Putin would go for that.

"UN," lol...

 

[Denny Crane]

"UN," lol...

OK, send in Jimmy Carter. He's "competent." LOL

 

[Eastoff]

What I'd like to see is the UN send in guys to assure any voting that goes on is on the up and up. I bet Putin would go for that.

This seems like a good course of action. There are probably other reasons why this isn't the simplest solution, but I hope it would work!

 

[Denny Crane]

This seems like a good course of action. There are probably other reasons why this isn't the simplest solution, but I hope it would work!

http://www.un.org/wcm/content/site/undpa/main/issues/elections/types_of_assistance

#2

https://www.cartercenter.org/peace/democracy/observed.html

 

[Paxil]

I'm no fan of Putin, but he's so clearly in the right on this one.

There's a coup, overthrowing the rightful government that was there. For who knows what reason, we jump all over the new regime as if it's legit, and we didn't waste any time really thinking about what the consequences of that are.

What I'd like to see is the UN send in guys to assure any voting that goes on is on the up and up. I bet Putin would go for that.

A coup is taking over a government by force, which isn't what happened. There were protests, the president fled, and their *existing* government voted overwhelmingly to impeach the president and place someone else in charge.

What else is interesting is that in the 1990's when Ukraine broke off, as part of a deal for them to send their nuclear arsenal to Russia, we among others, signed a treaty to defend them from threats.

 

[Eastoff]

I'm not sure if this is directly relevant.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/russia-today-anchor-resigns-live-on-air

 

[Eastoff]

It sounds like the Russians have pulled back.

http://translate.google.com/transla..._-russiske-styrker-trekker-tilbake-1.11586942

 

[Denny Crane]

A coup is taking over a government by force, which isn't what happened. There were protests, the president fled, and their *existing* government voted overwhelmingly to impeach the president and place someone else in charge.

What else is interesting is that in the 1990's when Ukraine broke off, as part of a deal for them to send their nuclear arsenal to Russia, we among others, signed a treaty to defend them from threats.

They have a term for it. Bloodless Coup.

 

[Eastoff]

They have a term for it. Bloodless Coup.

Except the blood was shed by the protesters.

 

[Eastoff]

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/opinions_107743.htm

Nato is weighing in on the side of Ukraine:

We have suspended the planning for our first NATO-Russia joint mission. The maritime escort for the U.S. ship Cape Ray, which will neutralise Syria’s chemical weapons. Let me stress, this will not affect the destruction of chemical weapons, but Russia will not be involved in the escort of the US vessel.
We have also decided that no staff-level civilian or military meetings with Russia will take place for now.
We have put the entire range of NATO-Russia cooperation under review. NATO Foreign Ministers will take decisions on this in early April.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

I'm no fan of Putin, but he's so clearly in the right on this one.

There's a coup, overthrowing the rightful government that was there. For who knows what reason, we jump all over the new regime as if it's legit, and we didn't waste any time really thinking about what the consequences of that are.

What I'd like to see is the UN send in guys to assure any voting that goes on is on the up and up. I bet Putin would go for that.

Good post.

 

[Eastoff]

I might be reading this wrong. Maybe this is the same thing as before, but this says the G8 has now actually suspended Russia. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-suspended-from-g8-france-says/496399.html

The leaders of the Group of Eight have suspended Russia's participation in the body over Moscow's activities in Ukraine, the French foreign minister said Tuesday.

 

[jlprk]

Western media pretends Putin is the problem, but all alternative Russian leaders agree with him, like his critic Gorbachev. Getting Putin out won't change the fact that he's right on the Ukraine and Syria.

http://news.msn.com/world/gorbachev-crimean-referendum-happy-event

 

[riverman]

It's not like the US has ever gone into a country with troops and ousted a government....just sayin' Oil and a natural seaport are like vodka and caviar to Putin.

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

Good thread at reddit to follow latest developments:

http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi

Putin will never withdraw from Ukraine, he took over Crimea because he could, just like the US could go into Iraq and Afghanistan. What is Putin supposed to do; politley withdraw all of his military assets from Ukraine, as Ukraine drifts closer to the West, the Euorpean Union, and possibly NATO?

The Russians are staying! The Russians are staying!

 

[DaLincolnJones]

I wonder if obama will treat Scotland the same as he has handled this Russian situation...http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26612193

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

I wonder if obama will treat Scotland the same as he has handled this Russian situation...http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26612193

Don't be silly dude.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Don't be silly dude.

Silly is all of the bullshit and bluster from the white house. So explain to me how this is so different? After 300 years, Scotland wants to be independent from the EU....guess we should sanction them..pffftt

 

[Natebishop3]

It's not like the US has ever gone into a country with troops and ousted a government....just sayin' Oil and a natural seaport are like vodka and caviar to Putin.

This is a little different than Afghanistan or Iraq. We weren't trying to annex those nations. Russia intends to make Crimea and probably Ukraine a part of their country again. It would be the equivalent of the US going down into Mexico to "stop the drug trade" and then making Mexico a permanent part of our country.

 

[Denny Crane]

This is a little different than Afghanistan or Iraq. We weren't trying to annex those nations. Russia intends to make Crimea and probably Ukraine a part of their country again. It would be the equivalent of the US going down into Mexico to "stop the drug trade" and then making Mexico a permanent part of our country.

Or equivalent to the USA confiscating the land of the Hawaiians, ending their government, and when enough white people can vote it a state it was annexed.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Obama really doesn't have a lot of options- sanctions, freezing money, expulsion from G3 (or whatever the hell it's called) and strengthening ties with other former Soviet countries is about all he can do.

 

[riverman]

Or equivalent to the USA confiscating the land of the Hawaiians, ending their government, and when enough white people can vote it a state it was annexed.

exactly!

 

[riverman]

I think the silliest of all the cold wars is the Taiwan-China standoff where we totally play both sides against the middle.

 

[Eastoff]

Silly is all of the bullshit and bluster from the white house. So explain to me how this is so different? After 300 years, Scotland wants to be independent from the EU....guess we should sanction them..pffftt

I agree that there are a lot of similarities. But there is also some big differences. Scotland, to my knowledge, was not a severely corrupt country like Ukraine was before their revolution. Ukraine is a major oil export stop for Russia to Europe, so I understand why Putin is worried. There are a lot of differences in their heritage of Crimea much like Scotland has a very different heritage from Britain. It is not an easy issue; You and Riverman both raise good point about our own past.

 

[Eastoff]

Or equivalent to the USA confiscating the land of the Hawaiians, ending their government, and when enough white people can vote it a state it was annexed.

This is a very good equivalence. It was about 55 years ago, that it joined the US. How far back to we consider American actions relevant to current decision making?

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

Silly is all of the bullshit and bluster from the white house. So explain to me how this is so different? After 300 years, Scotland wants to be independent from the EU....guess we should sanction them..pffftt

Independent from the "EU" after 300 years? You know the EU isn't even remotely close to that old, and besides that, they are not voting on weather to "leave the EU", but on whether or not Scotland is to remain a part of the United Kingdom or become an independent country. Actually Scotland might have to adopt the Euro if they leave the UK.

Silly.