Politics Ukraine / Russia (2 Viewers)

[beast blazer]

Isn't that similar to what Russia is doing? They're clearing out prisons and sending them to fight with little training AND equipment. You want to see corruption, look at what the Russian Generals and Oligarchs have done, they've stripped the Russian military and sold it off. Russia is using weapons, MREs, and first aid supplies from the Korean War. They're going to North Korea for help.

NATO and the US have been giving Ukraine weapon systems that are 2 or 3 generations old and they've had devastating effects on Russian ground troops. Ukraine has battled the world's 3rd most powerful army to a standstill. That's amazing. That would be similar to Canada and England holding off the US if we attacked.

This war has turned a two-front military into a stalemate with Ukraine. This effectively keeps them out of conflicts in Africa and the Middle East.

You keep bashing Ukraine and singing Russia's praises but I see this as a very huge failure for Russia. They did not see this turning out this way. By Ukraine preventing Russia from taking over has stopped all further expansion plans by Russia. Russia was looking at Poland next, Poland, a member of NATO that if Russia had attacked would have required troops on the ground from the US.

The US and NATO are preventing wars and weakening a hostile actor.

Sounds like a win to me.

You're stuck in the old propaganda friend-o. Did you read the Time article? Ukraine is toast. Russia has firm control of Eastern Ukraine (well, what used to be eastern Ukraine). The idea that Ukraine was going to win has only ever been propaganda.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Isn't that similar to what Russia is doing? They're clearing out prisons and sending them to fight with little training AND equipment. You want to see corruption, look at what the Russian Generals and Oligarchs have done, they've stripped the Russian military and sold it off. Russia is using weapons, MREs, and first aid supplies from the Korean War. They're going to North Korea for help.

NATO and the US have been giving Ukraine weapon systems that are 2 or 3 generations old and they've had devastating effects on Russian ground troops. Ukraine has battled the world's 3rd most powerful army to a standstill. That's amazing. That would be similar to Canada and England holding off the US if we attacked.

This war has turned a two-front military into a stalemate with Ukraine. This effectively keeps them out of conflicts in Africa and the Middle East.

You keep bashing Ukraine and singing Russia's praises but I see this as a very huge failure for Russia. They did not see this turning out this way. By Ukraine preventing Russia from taking over has stopped all further expansion plans by Russia. Russia was looking at Poland next, Poland, a member of NATO that if Russia had attacked would have required troops on the ground from the US.

The US and NATO are preventing wars and weakening a hostile actor.

Sounds like a win to me.

A very well reasoned and factual account of what's is actually going on. But it begs the question; why have a debate with other posters who are deep in the throes of denial, willful ignorance and anti democracy/pro Russian sentiments??? Kinda like pissing into the wind, isn't it?

 

[jonnyboy]

Isn't that similar to what Russia is doing? They're clearing out prisons and sending them to fight with little training AND equipment. You want to see corruption, look at what the Russian Generals and Oligarchs have done, they've stripped the Russian military and sold it off. Russia is using weapons, MREs, and first aid supplies from the Korean War. They're going to North Korea for help.

NATO and the US have been giving Ukraine weapon systems that are 2 or 3 generations old and they've had devastating effects on Russian ground troops. Ukraine has battled the world's 3rd most powerful army to a standstill. That's amazing. That would be similar to Canada and England holding off the US if we attacked.

This war has turned a two-front military into a stalemate with Ukraine. This effectively keeps them out of conflicts in Africa and the Middle East.

You keep bashing Ukraine and singing Russia's praises but I see this as a very huge failure for Russia. They did not see this turning out this way. By Ukraine preventing Russia from taking over has stopped all further expansion plans by Russia. Russia was looking at Poland next, Poland, a member of NATO that if Russia had attacked would have required troops on the ground from the US.

The US and NATO are preventing wars and weakening a hostile actor.

Sounds like a win to me.

This was the wildest re-framing of a loss into a win imaginable. But it was to be expected, the same justifications and blatant inversions of reality will be hitting the news cycle shortly. A million-ish people dead, absolutely nothing accomplished by either side, and leader of Ukraine, pockets turned out, begging for money from the superpower that pumped them up then abandoned them. They will ultimately sign the exact deal that was offered to them in the first place, ironically. Except being as they've lost the conflict, Russia will come away with more concessions than what would’ve originally been offered. Also, there’s nothing to suggest Russia needed to be stalemated into staying out of Africa or the Middle East. I think you’re confusing them with the good ol USA when it comes to meddling in those places. But hey, let’s play devils advocate and say your hypothetical Russia/Africa theory is true. At that point you’re still admitting 400,000 Ukrainians died for some silver lining small win side effect thousands of miles away. That’s your big win? That’s Ukraines big win? I don’t think that was the stated goal, or even in the same universe as the stated goal. This entire thing was a MASSIVE blunder instigated by the west.

 

[barfo]

This was the wildest re-framing of a loss into a win imaginable. But it was to be expected, the same justifications and blatant inversions of reality will be hitting the news cycle shortly. A million-ish people dead, absolutely nothing accomplished by either side, and leader of Ukraine, pockets turned out, begging for money from the superpower that pumped them up then abandoned them. They will ultimately sign the exact deal that was offered to them in the first place, ironically. Except being as they've lost the conflict, Russia will come away with more concessions than what would’ve originally been offered. Also, there’s nothing to suggest Russia needed to be stalemated into staying out of Africa or the Middle East. I think you’re confusing them with the good ol USA when it comes to meddling in those places. But hey, let’s play devils advocate and say your hypothetical Russia/Africa theory is true. At that point you’re still admitting 400,000 Ukrainians died for some silver lining small win side effect thousands of miles away. That’s your big win? That’s Ukraines big win? I don’t think that was the stated goal, or even in the same universe as the stated goal. This entire thing was a MASSIVE blunder instigated by the west.

The west forced Putin to invade Ukraine? How did that work, exactly? Did we use the Jewish Space Laser on him?

barfo

 

[riverman]

This was the wildest re-framing of a loss into a win imaginable. But it was to be expected, the same justifications and blatant inversions of reality will be hitting the news cycle shortly. A million-ish people dead, absolutely nothing accomplished by either side, and leader of Ukraine, pockets turned out, begging for money from the superpower that pumped them up then abandoned them. They will ultimately sign the exact deal that was offered to them in the first place, ironically. Except being as they've lost the conflict, Russia will come away with more concessions than what would’ve originally been offered. Also, there’s nothing to suggest Russia needed to be stalemated into staying out of Africa or the Middle East. I think you’re confusing them with the good ol USA when it comes to meddling in those places. But hey, let’s play devils advocate and say your hypothetical Russia/Africa theory is true. At that point you’re still admitting 400,000 Ukrainians died for some silver lining small win side effect thousands of miles away. That’s your big win? That’s Ukraines big win? I don’t think that was the stated goal, or even in the same universe as the stated goal. This entire thing was a MASSIVE blunder instigated by the west.

When your homeland is invaded bombed, and your neighbors killed get back to me about this "silver lining" Ukranian people are pulling over on their allies. I don't think you understand what happened when Russia invaded Ukraine. Also don't think you realize that Russia has now established military liaisons in Venezuela, Central America and African nations such as the Congo and Sudan as well as the middle east in Syria. Geopolitical landscape and history don't seem to be your field of expertise but America's commitments to NATO and the Pacific Rim seem to be outside your understanding as well. Fortunately, we have friends around the globe again who are not fascist dictators unlike the previous administration. Russia instigated this problem, not the US or our European allies. Sweden didn't join NATO because of American political pressure, they did it in response to a dictator invading a sovereign nation.

 

[jonnyboy]

The west forced Putin to invade Ukraine? How did that work, exactly? Did we use the Jewish Space Laser on him?

barfo

They had been warned not to encroach but did it anyway. A peace deal was in place but was scrapped at the behest of western actors like Victoria Nuland, who also happened to hand pick the current Ukrainian cabinet ironically. Zelensky ran on signing the Minsk accords and then didn’t when elected. All this while Russia warned them time and time again to stop provocations and opt for a peace deal or they would attack. This was not like a surprise thing. The US absolutely eased Ukraine into a war they couldn’t ever win by offering support and making promises they couldn’t keep. The contractors cashed out and that was intended purpose of the war. Funneled directly into their pockets via the American tax payer. The media turned it into a Marvel good versus evil movie and the average binary thinking American jumped on board to support it because they are stupid and would rather see a million dead than a boring show.

 

[riverman]

They had been warned not to encroach but did it anyway. A peace deal was in place but was scrapped at the behest of western actors like Victoria Nuland, who also happened to hand pick the current Ukrainian cabinet ironically. Zelensky ran on signing the Minsk accords and then didn’t when elected. All this while Russia warned them time and time again to stop provocations and opt for a peace deal or they would attack. This was not like a surprise thing. The US absolutely eased Ukraine into a war they couldn’t ever win by offering support and making promises they couldn’t keep. The contractors cashed out and that was intended purpose of the war. Funneled directly into their pockets via the American tax payer. The media turned it into a Marvel good versus evil movie and the average binary thinking American jumped on board to support it because they are stupid and would rather see a million dead than a boring show.

You trust a Putin peace deal? That's rich.All the former soviet states witnessed Russia invade Crimea before Ukraine....you need to go further back and also understand the double agents Russia installed in Crimea and Ukraine to influence allegiance to the motherland. America did not promote this geopolitical landscape but Obama dropped the ball in Crimea. Joe didn't drop the ball in Ukraine. Fool me once Putin. Hillary Clinton warned of Putin's intentions when she was secretary of state. Should have listened then. I've jumped on board our support of Taiwan as well as Ukraine but it has nothing to do with "stupid binary thinking" but I'll refrain from insulting your choice of targets because your talking points are in my view parroting some very bad right wing editorialists who are definitely not worried about your tax dollars or military budgets. For what it's worth, Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon and MTG all agree with your take on Ukraine.

 

[jonnyboy]

You trust a Putin peace deal? That's rich.All the former soviet states witnessed Russia invade Crimea before Ukraine....you need to go further back and also understand the double agents Russia installed in Crimea and Ukraine to influence allegiance to the motherland. America did not promote this geopolitical landscape but Obama dropped the ball in Crimea. Joe didn't drop the ball in Ukraine. Fool me once Putin. Hillary Clinton warned of Putin's intentions when she was secretary of state. Should have listened then. I've jumped on board our support of Taiwan as well as Ukraine but it has nothing to do with "stupid binary thinking" but I'll refrain from insulting your choice of targets because your talking points are in my view parroting some very bad right wing editorialists who are definitely not worried about your tax dollars or military budgets. For what it's worth, Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon and MTG all agree with your take on Ukraine.

Million dead. Zero accomplished. Keep trying to justify it. You can’t.

 

[riverman]

Million dead. Zero accomplished. Keep trying to justify it. You can’t.

Russia is not occupying Ukraine...if Canada invades Wyoming and kills your wife and children, you won't be worrying about dead invaders and you will grieve your lost ones. Modern warfare 101...people die. I don't justify war, but I understand what it does to people and why they respond. I'm just not as Gandi like as you profess to be.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Aren't most of you guys Democrats? The anti-war party? You're sure buying the propaganda.

Only a registered democrat so I can voice my preference in the primaries... But I don't like democrats a whole lot more than most republicans.

I support any country defending their borders. I even support Israel striking back to a point. But they are creating more enemies than they are killing. And losing support world wide.

 

[beast blazer]

Only a registered democrat so I can voice my preference in the primaries... But I don't like democrats a whole lot more than most republicans.

I support any country defending their borders. I even support Israel striking back to a point. But they are creating more enemies than they are killing. And losing support world wide.

Ukraine does have the right to defend it's borders. But the part Russia has essentially taken over is the side that over-whelmingly supported the president that was overthrown in the military coup in 2014 and the West instigated. And Ukraine has been bombing that region for years, and the citizens there want to join with Russia.

So I think in this case, allowing them to succeed would have been better than the bloodbath the US helped create and foster. Our leaders even stated out in the open, that our goal was to weaken Russia and Putin, and we used the Ukrainians as cannon fodder. It's totally disgusting beyond belief. The death of 1 is a tragedy, the death of a million is just a statistic.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ukraine does have the right to defend it's borders. But the part Russia has essentially taken over is the side that over-whelmingly supported the president that was overthrown in the military coup in 2014 and the West instigated. And Ukraine has been bombing that region for years, and the citizens there want to join with Russia.

So I think in this case, allowing them to succeed would have been better than the bloodbath the US helped create and foster. Our leaders even stated out in the open, that our goal was to weaken Russia and Putin, and we used the Ukrainians as cannon fodder. It's totally disgusting beyond belief. The death of 1 is a tragedy, the death of a million is just a statistic.

From my perspective it's up to Ukraine to figure out if they want to cede territory to Russia. I will not support Russia making that choice for Ukraine. I will support Ukraine defending that territory until they want to give it up.

 

[Hoopguru]

The war in Ukraine is similar to ww1 as trench warfare seems to be a big part.

 

[jonnyboy]

From my perspective it's up to Ukraine to figure out if they want to cede territory to Russia.

I agree. But they needed to make that decision without US tax dollars being part of the equation and us fighting a proxy war on their behalf. If Ukraine was left to its own devices they would’ve made a very different decision, they would signed the deal and it would’ve been over. That is what’s going to happen anyway now. Despite the media’s psychotic ramblings, there was never anything to indicate Putin was going to take the whole of Ukraine.
You sign the deal then go from there, not throw a million men in the meat grinder and say “oh well fuck it we tried” only to sign the deal anyway. Ukraines leadership throughout this is unparalleled in sheer stupidity.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I agree. But they needed to make that decision without US tax dollars being part of the equation and us fighting a proxy war on their behalf. If Ukraine was left to its own devices they would’ve made a very different decision, they would signed the deal and it would’ve been over. That is what’s going to happen anyway now. Despite the media’s psychotic ramblings, there was never anything to indicate Putin was going to take the whole of Ukraine.
You sign the deal then go from there, not throw a million men in the meat grinder and say “oh well fuck it we tried” only to sign the deal anyway. Ukraines leadership throughout this is unparalleled in sheer stupidity.

I disagree. I want US tax dollars to be spent helping countries defend their borders. Especially when against countries with evil rulers like Russia has.

It needs to be incredibly hard for Russia to expand their borders by force.

 

[beast blazer]

I disagree. I want US tax dollars to be spent helping countries defend their borders. Especially when against countries with evil rulers like Russia has.

It needs to be incredibly hard for Russia to expand their borders by force.

We don't even defend our own borders....and we don't get involved in military conflicts unless it's serving some interest to the elite.

There are some terrible things going on you may not have heard of, like the genocide in Burma, the media doesn't talk about it, because the US has no interest in going to War there. If they did, it would be all over the news.

Also we already spend more on defense than many other countries combined, I think countries should look after their own defense, we shouldn't have to defend the whole world.

 

[Phatguysrule]

We don't even defend our own borders....and we don't get involved in military conflicts unless it's serving some interest to the elite.

There are some terrible things going on you may not have heard of, like the genocide in Burma, the media doesn't talk about it, because the US has no interest in going to War there. If they did, it would be all over the news.

Also we already spend more on defense than many other countries combined, I think countries should look after their own defense, we shouldn't have to defend the whole world.

The US defending shipping lanes around the world has been the best thing that any country has pretty much ever done for the world. Our influence and protecting our interests have lifted more people out of poverty than anything else in the history of the world, and will possibly help the 3rd world industrialize largely with renewables rather than fossil fuels. Which could be a huge benefit to the whole world, including the US.

We should certainly be better. And there is certainly more we could do. But the fact that our wealthy get in the way of perfection doesn't make me wish we did less.

 

[oldfisherman]

Russian military strategy is so bad, it borders on war crimes against their own people.

How can they rationalize an attack plan will work, when the same plan has not only failed 20 times before, but resulted in huge loses in both troops and equipment?

Here is a partial list of estimated Russian loses since the war started.

More than 300,000 troops killed
More than 5,000 tanks destroyed
More than 10,000 armored personnel vehicles destroyed.
More than 7,000 artillery systems destroyed, including 58 yesterday.

How long can this insanity last?

 

[jonnyboy]

Russian military strategy is so bad, it borders on war crimes against their own people.

How can they rationalize an attack plan will work, when the same plan has not only failed 20 times before, but resulted in huge loses in both troops and equipment?

Here is a partial list of estimated Russian loses since the war started.

More than 300,000 troops killed
More than 5,000 tanks destroyed
More than 10,000 armored personnel vehicles destroyed.
More than 7,000 artillery systems destroyed, including 58 yesterday.

How long can this insanity last?

You realize Ukraine’s losses rival those numbers right? And they have 100 million less people. Per capita Ukraine’s losses are infinitely worse.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You realize Ukraine’s losses rival those numbers right? And they have 100 million less people. Per capita Ukraine’s losses are infinitely worse.

And as long as Ukraine wants to keep defending itself I'll continue to support them with my vote.

 

[barfo]

We don't even defend our own borders....

I don't think we've lost any territory to a military invasion lately.

and we don't get involved in military conflicts unless it's serving some interest to the elite.

Seems like a sensible policy. Why would we want to get involved in military conflicts that only some random plumber in Des Moines cares about?

There are some terrible things going on you may not have heard of, like the genocide in Burma, the media doesn't talk about it, because the US has no interest in going to War there. If they did, it would be all over the news.

Yes. And traffic accidents on I-95 get more coverage here than traffic accidents in Kenya.

Also we already spend more on defense than many other countries combined, I think countries should look after their own defense, we shouldn't have to defend the whole world.

We don't defend the whole world. We defend countries where we have an interest, be it economic, political, cultural, or otherwise.

If you tell your friends to go fuck themselves when they need your help, you can't expect them to help you when you need it.

barfo

 

[oldfisherman]

You realize Ukraine’s losses rival those numbers right? And they have 100 million less people. Per capita Ukraine’s losses are infinitely worse.

Wrong on all counts.

There has never been a war like this one, with so much quality intel equipment. There are drones with cameras recording everything. Supported by numerous satalites whose intel is analyzed by numerous agencies and governments. Most intel specialist estimate Ukranian loses at about 30% of Russia's.

Russia does has a larger population, so what! How many want to fight in Ukraine? Latest report has 17,000 Russian soldiers surrendering without a fight. They are kept in facilities seperated from captured soldiers, and given extras such as more phone calls home.

As far as USA help. Russia would not have been able to start this war without the help and support from Belarus. And would have run out of ammo and equipment without help from numerous countries, such as but not limited to, North Korea and Iran.

 

[Hoopguru]

I don't think we've lost any territory to a military invasion lately.



Seems like a sensible policy. Why would we want to get involved in military conflicts that only some random plumber in Des Moines cares about?



Yes. And traffic accidents on I-95 get more coverage here than traffic accidents in Kenya.



We don't defend the whole world. We defend countries where we have an interest, be it economic, political, cultural, or otherwise.

If you tell your friends to go fuck themselves when they need your help, you can't expect them to help you when you need it.

barfo

We don't defend the whole world. We defend countries where we have an interest, be it economic, political, cultural, or otherwise.

That has been true since post ww2 as we sold world shipping security with our Navy for political/democratic favors in the region. Wasn't so much commerce. It appears now with de-globalization possibly picking up steam we won't be the Sea Police for the world trade sea routes as much.
Shipping companies will have a much harder time getting insurance.

 

[jonnyboy]

Wrong on all counts.

There has never been a war like this one, with so much quality intel equipment. There are drones with cameras recording everything. Supported by numerous satalites whose intel is analyzed by numerous agencies and governments. Most intel specialist estimate Ukranian loses at about 30% of Russia's.

Russia does has a larger population, so what! How many want to fight in Ukraine? Latest report has 17,000 Russian soldiers surrendering without a fight. They are kept in facilities seperated from captured soldiers, and given extras such as more phone calls home.

As far as USA help. Russia would not have been able to start this war without the help and support from Belarus. And would have run out of ammo and equipment without help from numerous countries, such as but not limited to, North Korea and Iran.

Propaganda works. Soon Ukraine will have lost this war by every logical and historical measure, like every rational adult has said would happen since the beginning. You may want to join the others and start preparing your loose justifications for how Ukraine losing half a million people, billions of dollars spent and the eastern part of the country being lost to Russia is “actually a win if you think about it”.

The complete inversion of reality and the way people accept without pushback is astounding and frightening.

We’re not at war with Eurasia anymore, we’re at war with Eastasia. We were never at war with Eurasia.

 

[oldfisherman]

Propaganda works. Soon Ukraine will have lost this war by every logical and historical measure, like every rational adult has said would happen since the beginning. You may want to join the others and start preparing your loose justifications for how Ukraine losing half a million people, billions of dollars spent and the eastern part of the country being lost to Russia is “actually a win if you think about it”.

The complete inversion of reality and the way people accept without pushback is astounding and frightening.

We’re not at war with Eurasia anymore, we’re at war with Eastasia. We were never at war with Eurasia.

Agree, propaganda is a weapon used by all sides, and you are right to question every war report, but from both sides, not just one.

My favorite report out of Russia was how they destroyed almost 50 Abrahms tanks. Which is very impressive, especially since we only sent 31 tanks. More impressive, all of these American tanks were reported destroyed more than a month before the first batch of 10 tanks arrived in Ukraine. Russia must have a secret time machine, which means Ukraine does not stand a chance.

 

[barfo]

They had been warned not to encroach but did it anyway.

Who is 'they'? And encroach upon what?

A peace deal was in place but was scrapped at the behest of western actors like Victoria Nuland, who also happened to hand pick the current Ukrainian cabinet ironically. Zelensky ran on signing the Minsk accords and then didn’t when elected.

Your history is incorrect. The Minsk accords were signed in 2014 and 2015. Zelensky became president in 2019.

barfo

 

[beast blazer]

The US defending shipping lanes around the world has been the best thing that any country has pretty much ever done for the world. Our influence and protecting our interests have lifted more people out of poverty than anything else in the history of the world, and will possibly help the 3rd world industrialize largely with renewables rather than fossil fuels. Which could be a huge benefit to the whole world, including the US.

We should certainly be better. And there is certainly more we could do. But the fact that our wealthy get in the way of perfection doesn't make me wish we did less.

Defending shipping lanes is one thing. I'm talking about bombing the crap out of Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, our CIA organizing bloody coups....we've killed millions and it doesn't even register in the minds of most ignorant Americans.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Defending shipping lanes is one thing. I'm talking about bombing the crap out of Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, our CIA organizing bloody coups....we've killed millions and it doesn't even register in the minds of most ignorant Americans.

Most Americans can't do anything about it. Stressing about it will just negatively impact their lives and help nobody.

I wish I could be more like that.

Here is the reality though. After WW2 we could have literally taken over the world. Legitimately. Nobody could have done anything to stop it.

But instead we helped rebuild countries and made a deal in which everyone involved prospered and lead to a period of incredible growth and relative peace that improved billions of lives.

It doesn't excuse the bad things. But it does kind of put them into perspective.

Hopefully we can do better in the future.

 

[beast blazer]

Most Americans can't do anything about it. Stressing about it will just negatively impact their lives and help nobody.

I wish I could be more like that.

Here is the reality though. After WW2 we could have literally taken over the world. Legitimately. Nobody could have done anything to stop it.

But instead we helped rebuild countries and made a deal in which everyone involved prospered and lead to a period of incredible growth and relative peace that improved billions of lives.

It doesn't excuse the bad things. But it does kind of put them into perspective.

Hopefully we can do better in the future.

I"m not one of those anti-america lets flagellate ourselves people. I think America overall is one of the best nations/societies ever. But when we talk about how America has been hijacked, and the corrupt elite leading to corrupt wars and corrupt policies, we're only talking about how America has been lead to behave in the same way pretty much all civilizations have behaved once they get a certain level of power.

After the cold war ended, we were supposed to get a peace dividend. But instead military spending continued to ramp up and new conflicts were found.

JFK was the last good president we had, he wanted to make peace, and concentrate on fostering good relations with other nations, and they blew his head off.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Late stage capitalism rears it's ugly head... It has cost us investment in our well being, education, STEM, and R&D, thus pushing us more toward a very monopolistic predatory economy with a population that isn't educated enough to fight back.