Politics Ukraine / Russia (2 Viewers)

[SlyPokerDog]

That of course isn't an accurate portrayal of the situation in Ukraine, but suppose it was actually true of the southern US.
You would then think that Mexico should take a few US states, and the US should agree to that?

barfo

I'd be fine with trading a Dakota for the Yucatan.

 

[barfo]

Strawman. Russia never wanted all of Ukraine, only the eastern, ethnically Russian areas and for NATO to not expand to their doorstep.

How do you know what Russia does and doesn't want?

Nothing was ever presented to suggest otherwise aside from people loudly reiterating western propaganda points with no basis.

Loudly reiterating propaganda points with no basis? Hmm.


If what your bud Vlad wanted was for NATO not to expand on his doorstep, he sure fucked up, didn't he?

It's almost like that wasn't really what he was worried about. Or he's pretty stupid.

Either way, it should suggest loudly reiterating his propaganda is unwise.

barfo

 

[beast blazer]

No, it's not the same. johnnyboy was saying that Ukraine should just surrender because they are smaller/weaker.
The similar argument for Vietnam would be that South Vietnam should have surrendered because they were smaller/weaker.

That could be stated even if the USA didn't exist.

barfo

No one is telling Ukraine what to do, we just don't think the US needs to be involved.

How many of you were critical of Obama for not going to war with Russia took over Crimea?

What does it matter to the US who controls the Donbas region? (where most of the folks want to be part of Russia anyway).

How were you all so easily convinced that we should spend billions of dollars to support a war of carnage over eastern Ukraine? One that could even trigger a nuclear conflict. Did it become partisan because the Dems blamed Russia for 2020? I fear the reason may actually be that stupid.

 

[Phatguysrule]

No one is telling Ukraine what to do, we just don't think the US needs to be involved.

How many of you were critical of Obama for not going to war with Russia took over Crimea?

What does it matter to the US who controls the Donbas region? (where most of the folks want to be part of Russia anyway).

How were you all so easily convinced that we should spend billions of dollars to support a war of carnage over eastern Ukraine? One that could even trigger a nuclear conflict. Did it become partisan because the Dems blamed Russia for 2020? I fear the reason may actually be that stupid.

I would have certainly supported the US funding and supplying weapons to assist with Ukraine's defense of Crimea in 2014. Absolutely.

 

[beast blazer]

No, it's not the same. johnnyboy was saying that Ukraine should just surrender because they are smaller/weaker.
The similar argument for Vietnam would be that South Vietnam should have surrendered because they were smaller/weaker.

That could be stated even if the USA didn't exist.

barfo

At this point, the longer they fight, the more of them will die. So continuing to fight is only increasing the carnage because they have no possibility of victory. That's usually a good time to surrender.

 

[beast blazer]

If you see a dog snarling at you, does it make sense to get into a fist fight with it, under the rationale that it's better to kick it's ass now so it won't want to mess with you later? That seems to be the logic that is being employed with Russia.

If we don't fight them in Ukraine they are going to invade NATO, then we'll REALLY have a fight on our hands. When the idea that this will happen is absurd and there is no reason to believe Russia has any intention to invade NATO. Starting a fight with it is only greatly increasing the chance of what you're supposedly trying to avoid happening.

And now we have leaders in NATO countries openly talking about using NATO troops directly.

And we keep being told not to worry about the nuclear aspect of this...

 

[Phatguysrule]

At this point, the longer they fight, the more of them will die. So continuing to fight is only increasing the carnage because they have no possibility of victory. That's usually a good time to surrender.

Who is telling you this? Russia cannot mathematically hold a country the size of Ukraine by force. They don't have a large enough fighting force.

The only way Russia can hold Ukraine is if Ukraine gives up. As long as Ukraine keeps fighting Russia cannot win. Russia will bankrupt themselves first and fall into turmoil.

Ukraine can hold out for literally years at the current rate. Russia can't maintain the attack for that long.

So as long as Ukraine has the drive to win and Russia doesn't use nukes (which would be suicide for Russia) then Ukraine will eventually win.

 

[Phatguysrule]

If you see a dog snarling at you, does it make sense to get into a fist fight with it, under the rationale that it's better to kick it's ass now so it won't want to mess with you later? That seems to be the logic that is being employed with Russia.

If we don't fight them in Ukraine they are going to invade NATO, then we'll REALLY have a fight on our hands. When the idea that this will happen is absurd and there is no reason to believe Russia has any intention to invade NATO. Starting a fight with it is only greatly increasing the chance of what you're supposedly trying to avoid happening.

And now we have leaders in NATO countries openly talking about using NATO troops directly.

And we keep being told not to worry about the nuclear aspect of this...

We're not fighting them. We're supporting Ukraine with weapons, supplies, and money.

Russia is weakening itself in Ukraine. Our support makes them weaker and less likely to succeed in Ukraine.

If Russia cannot take Ukraine they will not be able to take any other countries.

If Russia were to use nukes the whole world would support an overwhelming non-nuclear response which would eliminate Putin's power.

We don't need nukes to defeat Russia. Russia using nukes would be absolute suicide.

 

[jonnyboy]

How do you know what Russia does and doesn't want?

How do you? There’s more evidence and statements from the players involved to support my assertion than the counter narrative of “Russia is marching across Ukraine, then Europe, then the world!”

 

[jonnyboy]

Did it become partisan because the Dems blamed Russia for 2020? I fear the reason may actually be that stupid.

This is exactly it. They used this fake Russian boogeyman narrative to manufacture consent for supporting this current debacle, which is completely inconsequential to American life in any way. When you consider all those original Russiagate scandals were completely debunked it makes the situation even more ridiculous.

 

[Phatguysrule]

How do you? There’s more evidence and statements from the players involved to support my assertion than the counter narrative of “Russia is marching across Ukraine, then Europe, then the world!”

This is irrelevant. Russia is attacking a sovereign nation and when that nation didn't have our help to strongly resist the taking of Crimea it resulted in The Russian Kyiv convoy less than a decade later.

Helping Ukraine defend itself is the best strategic move for the US and it is also the right thing to do morally, and in all other ways.

 

[jonnyboy]

This is irrelevant. Russia is attacking a sovereign nation and when that nation didn't have our help to strongly resist the taking of Crimea it resulted in The Russian Kyiv convoy less than a decade later.

Helping Ukraine defend itself is the best strategic move for the US and it is also the right thing to do morally, and in all other ways.

There is absolutely no strategic benefit for the United States in any way whatsoever. Zero. It’s not even worth arguing because it’s so ridiculous.

As to your “moral” concerns…hundreds of thousands of dead kids while western contractors make billions is an interesting “moral” ground to stand on. The “poor little Ukraine” narrative has fallen apart. It’s a playground for western corruption and their government is complicit. They are sending kids to die for money. Wake up.

 

[barfo]

If you see a dog snarling at you, does it make sense to get into a fist fight with it, under the rationale that it's better to kick it's ass now so it won't want to mess with you later? That seems to be the logic that is being employed with Russia.

If you see a big dog attacking a little dog, do you just shrug and say "well, it's smaller, so it's gotta die, not my problem"? Or, if there's a way to break up the fight that doesn't put you in danger yourself, do you do something?

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

There is absolutely no strategic benefit for the United States in any way whatsoever. Zero. It’s not even worth arguing because it’s so ridiculous.

As to your “moral” concerns…hundreds of thousands of dead kids while western contractors make billions is an interesting “moral” ground to stand on. The “poor little Ukraine” narrative has fallen apart. It’s a playground for western corruption and their government is complicit. They are sending kids to die for money. Wake up.

The dead kids are on Russia. When you invade other countries people die. Including kids. Particularly when you target civilians. Russia should stop.

If you don't see the strategic advantages after they've been explained in this thread it's because you are wilfully choosing not to. That's on you.

 

[jonnyboy]

The dead kids are on Russia. When you invade other countries people die. Russia should stop.

If you don't see the strategic advantage after they've been explained in this thread it's because you are wilfully choosing not to. That's on you.

There’s nothing to defend or understand. What’s happening is blatant. It’s a tried and true neocon agenda.

 

[barfo]

There’s nothing to defend or understand. What’s happening is blatant. It’s a tried and true neocon agenda.

It's one thing to be anti-war. It's a whole other thing to think that a country should never fight back when attacked.

barfo

 

[barfo]

There is absolutely no strategic benefit for the United States in any way whatsoever. Zero. It’s not even worth arguing because it’s so ridiculous.

Do you think there is any strategic benefit for the United States in supporting any other country or countries if they are attacked? If so, which ones and why?

NATO is a mutual defense treaty. Should we pull out of NATO like Trump and Putin want? Do you see any possible downsides to that?

Let's hear the jonnyboy doctrine explicitly.

barfo

 

[oldfisherman]

There is clear evidence Putin planned for a war much larger than rolling over Ukraine in three days.

For decades, Russia has been one of the largest exporters of military equipment. That all changed a year before Putin invaded Ukraine. Instead of exporting weapons, Russia began buying them back.

One example is, a Russian factory that builds the SU 35 fighter, bought back 1/2 $billion worth of their SU 35s, a year before the war started. And about another 1/2 $billion worth since then.

It is clear, Putin planned ahead for a very large war.

 

[beast blazer]

We're not fighting them. We're supporting Ukraine with weapons, supplies, and money.

Russia is weakening itself in Ukraine. Our support makes them weaker and less likely to succeed in Ukraine.

If Russia cannot take Ukraine they will not be able to take any other countries.

If Russia were to use nukes the whole world would support an overwhelming non-nuclear response which would eliminate Putin's power.

We don't need nukes to defeat Russia. Russia using nukes would be absolute suicide.

Why do you think Russia wants to take other countries? It already has a massive landmass and a lot of natural resources.

Russia has been very open, about how it feels Ukraine is a red line, and how it felt about NATO expansion. This idea that we have to stop Putin from trying to take over the world is propaganda.

 

[beast blazer]

If you see a big dog attacking a little dog, do you just shrug and say "well, it's smaller, so it's gotta die, not my problem"? Or, if there's a way to break up the fight that doesn't put you in danger yourself, do you do something?

barfo

I'll tell you what not to do: if the little dog is on his belly submitting, let the violence end. Don't coach it to get up and attack the bigger dog, because that only ensures it'll be maimed killed. This is what happened when Boris Johnson intervened in the peace agreement Russia and Ukraine had. NATO wanted this little proxy war to happen.

https://europeanconservative.com/ar...son-forced-kyiv-to-refuse-russian-peace-deal/

 

[Phatguysrule]

Why do you think Russia wants to take other countries? It already has a massive landmass and a lot of natural resources.

Russia has been very open, about how it feels Ukraine is a red line, and how it felt about NATO expansion. This idea that we have to stop Putin from trying to take over the world is propaganda.

Because it needs young people. Russia is dying. It also feels it needs to control the natural passes so it can prevent invasion. Ukraine is a red line to them. As are their other neighbors.

 

[barfo]

This is what happened when Boris Johnson intervened in the peace agreement Russia and Ukraine had. NATO wanted this little proxy war to happen.

https://europeanconservative.com/ar...son-forced-kyiv-to-refuse-russian-peace-deal/

First off, Russia and Ukraine never had a peace agreement. They had talks, but didn't come to an agreement.
Since you like what this guy Arahamiya said about the peace talks, here's some more of what he said:

"There is no, and there was no, trust in the Russians that they would do it. That could only be done if there were security guarantees."
Arahamiya clarified that signing such an agreement without guarantees would have left Ukraine vulnerable to a second incursion.
“They would have come in more prepared, because they came in, in fact, unprepared for such resistance,” Arakhamia said.

Second, do you really think Boris Johnson has the power to force another country to fight a war, simply by saying they should?
If Zelensky and Ukraine were really that weak-willed, wouldn't they have given up on the war by now, given that Boris is no longer even in office?

barfo

 

[beast blazer]

First off, Russia and Ukraine never had a peace agreement. They had talks, but didn't come to an agreement.
Since you like what this guy Arahamiya said about the peace talks, here's some more of what he said:



Second, do you really think Boris Johnson has the power to force another country to fight a war, simply by saying they should?
If Zelensky and Ukraine were really that weak-willed, wouldn't they have given up on the war by now, given that Boris is no longer even in office?

barfo

It was widely reported that Boris Johnson, as a representative of NATO intervened and convinced Ukraine to back out of a peace agreement they were close to signing. I can think of many reasons why the Ukrainian power structure would have liked that move. Think of the billions of dollars that are flowing into their country, much of which is unaccounted for.

But in the end, they were just used as puppets. The blood of those who have died since is on the hands of those who sabotagued the peace deal.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

OK, now I'm confused. @jonnyboy says that Russia only wants the ethnically-Russian eastern portion of Ukraine, and the war would be over if Ukraine let Russia have that land, but @beast crnjo says that Russia only wants Ukraine to stay out of NATO, and doesn't actually care about annexing Ukrainian land at all. Which one is true?

 

[Hoopguru]

Obama didnt seem to want to apply pressure against going into Crimea.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Obama didnt seem to want to apply pressure against going into Crimea.

2008: Russia invades Georgia. Muted reaction from US and Europe. 20% of Georgia is still under Russian military occupation.

2014: Russia invades Crimea. Muted reaction from US and Europe. Crimea is still under Russian military occupation.

2022: Russia invades the rest of Ukraine, with a convoy of military vehicles reaching within 20 miles of Kyiv. Targeting civilians with military weapons, as well as raping and torturing civilians. Russian military is still occupying Ukraine attempting to take more and more.

Why do you think Russia wants to take other countries?

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I really hate that guy. Also that old pervert French actor.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Ukraine war latest: Kyiv strikes Russian oil facilities, Germany to buy 3 HIMARS for Ukraine

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine...cilities-germany-to-buy-3-himars-for-ukraine/

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Here is a good fact check on nutjob RFK Jr's take on Ukraine. I'll add a few notes of my own. Did all this for my nutjob kid brother.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...on-russias-invasion-ukraine-flunks-fact-test/

Zelenskyi was raised in a pro-russian family. He spent a lot of his adult life working in russia, He didn't even know how to speak Ukrainian until he ran for office. Putin really screwed up not trying to work with him.
Talking about Minsk agreements again. Ukraine probably saved the country by signing it (and making sure the terms were very ambiguous). Putin made another tactical error, thinking he could control Ukraine without having to occupy it,. If he had brought in more troops at that time and gone all the way to Kyiv, he would have faced almost no military or political opposition.
One addition. Zelensky's party controls the parliament. far right groups about 5%, (in response to Kennedy saying far right groups controlled the parliament)
First , Zelensky has never refused to negotiat; he has just said that russia needs to first withdraw from all Ukrainian territory, then negotiations begin. Many people point out that Putin has never honored any agreement he has ever made so feel as if negotiation is fruitless. They don't want even a ceasefire or any settelement, because for Putin it would just be to give him time to rebuild his army.
Can anyone see a logical connection between Hitler killing one of 7 soviets (not russians; in fact between 40 and 45 % of soviet casualties in WW II were Ukrainian) and Ukraine wanting to join NATO?. The fact that kennedy doesn't distinguish between soviet and russian seems to indicate a ignorant man.
As far as russian fear of NATO? Let's remember that all NATO military exercises practice defense while all russian exercises practice offense. Why?
And what about Prigozhin, who was very close to Putin. on video saying that fear of NATO and destroying Nazis in Ukraine were fake reasons; He said they were there as a resource grab by russian oligarchs. Who is the richest russian oligarch? Putin.
One note on yanukovych. yes, the parliament voted for a temporary replacement for him while at the same time scheduling an election. What they didn;t say is that they did this after Yanukovych fled the country.
Crimea. The reason Ukraine didn't resist russia militarily is because they didn't really have an army at the time. Yanukovych had purposely run the army down with lack of funding and neglect. Ukraine also realized the West was not going to help so they chose a course that would save lives.BTW, this is another example of how Putin, the guy Trump so admires, keeps making decisions that actually threaten russia. His takeover of Crimea and Donbass led to a major and lengthy buildup of the Ukrainian army and alienated the Ukrainian populace against russia.. His 2022 invasion of Ukraine led to Finland and Sweden joining NATO.
They don't mention that the Crimean parliament was forced at gunpoint to call for a referendum.
Totally ridiculous to talk about in 2014 Ukraine beginning to kill citizens of Donbass. Does that make any sense at all? Why would they do that?
Not only Prigozhim, but also Girkin and a defector from russian military intelligence have revealed that russia instigated, supplied, and brought russians into Donbass to lead the socalled insurrection.This was planned well in advance. Then when Ukrainian volunteer military tried to take back their territory, Putin sent in regular russian military. It was at this point that Ukraine feared that russia would drive all the way to Kyiv against their largely non-existent army and so they signed the Minsk accords. The Minsk accords, if implemented as russia wished, would have given autonomy (russian control) to the Donbass but at the same time allowing them to elect parliament members so that they could sabotage ukraine's move to the EU. So I think it;s important to understand that Ukraine signed them literally at the barrel of a gun.
BTW, there were several ceasefires agreed to by both sides over the years but the russian controlled side would never honor them. Ukraine was under a permanent order to never initiate shell fire, only to retaliate.
Why does he bring up that Zelensky was an actor? This is a russian tactic constantlhy used by paid russian trolls to try to demaean him. It doesn't have substance.
Claiming that Zelensky did a turnaround because he was afraid of death threats from far right? What? Does he seem like th kind of guy easily intimidated? I believe he came in to office trul believing he could negotiate a fair agreement with Putin, but quickly found out Putin was not interested. Putin would never agree to pull out his own military and para-military before free electiosn in Donbass.
No one disputes that Putin sent at least 175.000 troops into Ukraine in 2022, from the north, east and south. So Kennedy again just seems nutso.
Do you really think Boris Johnson or anyone from the West has much influence in Ukraine? Do they listen when USA constantly urges them not to attack russian oil refinereies?
On the last point the fact checker seems confused by Kennedy using term "kids". he is obviously talking about soldier casualties. And no western intelligence agency thinks that Ukraine is losing nearly as many soldiers as russia, much lest 5-8 times as many/ Thse figures could only come directly from russia. Thre are hundreds of russian videos talking about being sent into a meatgrinder,

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Here is a good fact check on nutjob RFK Jr's take on Ukraine. I'll add a few notes of my own. Did all this for my nutjob kid brother.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...on-russias-invasion-ukraine-flunks-fact-test/

Zelenskyi was raised in a pro-russian family. He spent a lot of his adult life working in russia, He didn't even know how to speak Ukrainian until he ran for office. Putin really screwed up not trying to work with him.
Talking about Minsk agreements again. Ukraine probably saved the country by signing it (and making sure the terms were very ambiguous). Putin made another tactical error, thinking he could control Ukraine without having to occupy it,. If he had brought in more troops at that time and gone all the way to Kyiv, he would have faced almost no military or political opposition.
One addition. Zelensky's party controls the parliament. for right groups abour 5%,
First , Zelensky has never refused to negotiat; he has just said that russia needs to first withdraw from all Ukrainian territory, then negotiations begin. Many people point out that Putin has never honored any agreement he has ever made so feel as if negotiation is fruitless. They don't want even a cesefire or any settelement, becasue for {Putin it would just be to give him time to rebuild his army.
Can anyone see a logical connection between Hitler killing one of 7 soviets (not russians; in fact between 40 and 45 % of soviet casualties in WW II were Ukrainian) and Ukraine wanting to join NATO?. The fact that kennedy doesn't distinguish between soviet and russian seems to indicate a ignorant man.
As far as russian fear of NATO? Let's remember that all NATO military exercises practice defense while all russian exercises practice offense. Why?
And what about Prigozhin, who was very close to Putin. on video saying that fear of NATO and destroying Nazis in Ukraine were fake reasons; He said they were there as a resource grab by russian oligarchs. Who is the richest russian oligarch? Putin.
One note on yanukovych. yes, the parliament voted for a temporary replacement for him while at the same time scheduling an election. What they didn;t say is that they did this after Yanukovych fled the country.
The reason Ukraine didn't resist russia militarily is because they didn't really have an army at the time. Yanukovych had purposely run the army down with lack of funding and neglect. Ukraine also realized the West was not going to help so they chose a course that would save lives.BTW, this is another example of how Putin, the guy Trump so admires, keeps making decisions that actually threaten russia. His takeover of Crimea and Donbass led to a major and lengthy buildup of the Ukrainian army and alienated the Ukrainian populace against russia.. His 2022 invasion of Ukraine led to Finland and Sweden joining NATO.
They don't mention that the Crimean parliament was forced at gunpoint to call for a referendum.
Totally ridiculous to talk about in 2914 Ukraine beginning to kill citiens of Donbass. Does that make any sense at all? Why would they do that?
Not only Prigozhim, but also Girkin and a defector from russian military intelligence have revealed that russia instigated, supplied, and brought russians into Donbass to lead the socalled insurrection.This was planned well in advance. Then when Ukrainian volunteer military tried to take back their territory, Putin sent in regular russian military. It was at this point that Ukraine feared that russia would drive all the way to Kyiv against their largely non-existent army and so they signed the Minsk accords. The Minsk accords, if implemented as russia wished, would have given autonomy (russian control) to the Donbass but at the same time allowing them to elect parliament members so that they could sabotage ukraine's move to the EU. So I think it;s important to understand that Ukraine singed them literally at the barrel of a gun.
BTW, there were several ceasefires agreed to by both sides over the years but the russian controlled side would never honor them. Ukraine was under a permanent order to never initiate shell fire, only to retaliate.
Why does he bring up that Zelensky was an actor? This is a russian tactic constantlhy used by paid russian trolls to try to demaean him. It doesn't have substance.
Claiming that Zelensky did a turnaround because he was afraid of death threats from far right? What? Does he seem like th kind of guy easily intimidated? I believe he came in to office trul believing he could negotiate a fair agreement with Putin, but quickly found out Putin was not interested. Putin would never agree to pull out his own military and para-military before free electiosn in Donbass.
No one disputes that Putin sent at least 175.000 troops into Ukraine in 2022, from the north, east and south. So Kennedy again just seems nutso.
Do you really think Boris Johnson or anyone from the West has much influence in Ukraine? Do they listen when USA constantly urges them not to attack russian oil refinereies?
On the last point the fact checker seems confused by Kennedy using term "kids". he is obviously talking about soldier casualties. And no western intelligence agency thinks that Ukraine is losing nearly as many soldiers as russia, much lest 5-8 times as many/ Thse figures could only come directly from russia. Thre are hundreds of russian videos talking about being sent into a meatgrinder,

If anyone doesn't have access let me know, I can paste it here.