Politics Ukraine / Russia (1 Viewer)

[beast blazer]

Yes, that's why we are not fighting it. It is Ukraine's war, and I'm pretty sure they have a better idea than you or I about the situation in Ukraine.

barfo

Who on earth has ever suggested that Ukraine not be allowed to fight back? We're fighting them via proxy, and you all reacted to the news that we'd be allowing our long range missiles to hit targets in Russia with glee. Those missiles are actually operated by the nations they come from, because they require the background surviellence and targeting technology to launch.

Do you understand the concept of escalation?

 

[beast blazer]

Yes, that's why we are not fighting it. It is Ukraine's war, and I'm pretty sure they have a better idea than you or I about the situation in Ukraine.

barfo

There is no other relevant perspective. It's Ukrainian land. Russia is invading and killing civilians.

The right thing to do is help Ukraine defend themselves as long as they are asking us to. These are the only facts that matter. This is actually very simple.

It might be simple for you, who only understands what the TV tells you. But Russia has a different perspective. When they were promised NATO would not expand to the east in exchange for allowing those states to be independent. Yet since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the policy of the US has been to increase it's dominance to the deteriment and without regard to any other nation.

George Kennan and many others warned back in 1997 that will provoke a violent response from Russia. So this isn't just spin-doctoring.

And you might think Russia is being stupid for feeling threatened, but they are the ones that were invaded 3 times via Ukraine.

 

[barfo]

Who on earth has ever suggested that Ukraine not be allowed to fight back? We're fighting them via proxy, and you all reacted to the news that we'd be allowing our long range missiles to hit targets in Russia with glee. Those missiles are actually operated by the nations they come from, because they require the background surviellence and targeting technology to launch.

Do you understand the concept of escalation?

I do. I've not heard of any nukes being fired off, have you? I mean, if we'd started WWIII as you seem to think, surely it would have been in the news?

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

It might be simple for you, who only understands what the TV tells you.

Since I don't watch TV shows or news you might have to rethink that line of insults.

But Russia has a different perspective. When they were promised NATO would not expand to the east in exchange for allowing those states to be independent. Yet since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the policy of the US has been to increase it's dominance to the deteriment and without regard to any other nation.

George Kennan and many others warned back in 1997 that will provoke a violent response from Russia. So this isn't just spin-doctoring.

And you might think Russia is being stupid for feeling threatened, but they are the ones that were invaded 3 times via Ukraine.

NATO-Russia Founding Act

Russia literally signed a treaty in 1997 saying they recognized the right of eastern bloc countries to join NATO. Part of doing that got them agreements from the US not to permanently station troops in those countries.

Which is why the US hasn't permanently stationed troops in those countries.

Russia is the only one violating treaties here.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Who on earth has ever suggested that Ukraine not be allowed to fight back? We're fighting them via proxy, and you all reacted to the news that we'd be allowing our long range missiles to hit targets in Russia with glee. Those missiles are actually operated by the nations they come from, because they require the background surviellence and targeting technology to launch.

Do you understand the concept of escalation?

Yes. And I support Ukrainian aggressive escalation until Russia withdraws. As soon as Russia withdraws from all of Ukraine and ceases all attacks on Ukraine I will withdraw support for Ukrainian aggression against Russians.

 

[beast blazer]

I do. I've not heard of any nukes being fired off, have you? I mean, if we'd started WWIII as you seem to think, surely it would have been in the news?

barfo

 

[beast blazer]

Since I don't watch TV shows or news you might have to rethink that line of insults.



NATO-Russia Founding Act

Russia literally signed a treaty in 1997 saying they recognized the right of eastern bloc countries to join NATO. Part of doing that got them agreements from the US not to permanently station troops in those countries.

Which is why the US hasn't permanently stationed troops in those countries.

Russia is the only one violating treaties here.

There was never a signed treaty that stated NATO would not enlarge. It was a verbal assurance given to the Russians shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union. The common retort is that it wasn't put to paper, but that's beside the point when we're talking about Russian perspective. The Russians at no point said, "Sure, yeah, expand to our border that's fine." But they have consistently stated how they feel about it, and that Ukraine was a red line.

And they publicly declared the intention of Ukraine to join NATO. And it's obvious Ukraine had become a puppet state of the West.

 

[beast blazer]

Also, let's not forget the fact that Russia and Ukraine were about to agree to a peace deal, in line with the Minsk accords, and the Boris Johnson torpedo'd it. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are now dead as a result. And we're pushing it further.

So if the US/NATO had stayed out of it, the war would likely already be over. We're moving in the opposite direction of peace.

Do you think it's because we care about Ukraine? Lloyd Austin flat out said our purpose in the conflict was to drain the power of the Russian military. Biden said our purpose was regime change in Russia.

 

[Phatguysrule]

There was never a signed treaty that stated NATO would not enlarge. It was a verbal assurance given to the Russians shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union. The common retort is that it wasn't put to paper, but that's beside the point when we're talking about Russian perspective. The Russians at no point said, "Sure, yeah, expand to our border that's fine."

They literally signed the agreement that said exactly that.

But they have consistently stated how they feel about it, and that Ukraine was a red line.

You mean they consistently talked about how they wanted to break the treaty they signed regarding Ukraine, even though all of the other relevant parties were upholding their end of the deal.

And they publicly declared the intention of Ukraine to join NATO. And it's obvious Ukraine had become a puppet state of the West.

As is Ukraine's right to do, according to the deal Russia signed.

 

[beast blazer]

They literally signed the agreement that said exactly that.


You mean they consistently talked about how they wanted to break the treaty they signed regarding Ukraine, even though all of the other relevant parties were upholding their end of the deal.


As is Ukraine's right to do, according to the deal Russia signed.

It's pretty well documented. No one disputes these verbal assurances were made. The argument is that it doesn't matter because it wasn't official. The Russians refer back to this often though.

See book:
Not One Inch: America, Russia, and the Making of Post-Cold War Stalemate.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Also, let's not forget the fact that Russia and Ukraine were about to agree to a peace deal, in line with the Minsk accords, and the Boris Johnson torpedo'd it. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are now dead as a result. And we're pushing it further.

Doesn't matter. Russia violated many treaties they had signed, lied about their intentions then invaded Ukraine and began murdering, torturing and raping civilians.

So if the US/NATO had stayed out of it, the war would likely already be over. We're moving in the opposite direction of peace.

The invaded country doesn't want peace until the invading army is completely expelled, and I believe they still want restitution. Which means they are pissed.

As long as Ukraine feels that way I'm more than happy to support any and all efforts to help them.

Do you think it's because we care about Ukraine? Lloyd Austin flat out said our purpose in the conflict was to drain the power of the Russian military. Biden said our purpose was regime change in Russia.

Doesn't matter what anybody else's intentions are. I care about Ukraine and I'm glad we're helping them. I wish we were doing more.

 

[Phatguysrule]

It's pretty well documented. No one disputes these verbal assurances were made. The argument is that it doesn't matter because it wasn't official. The Russians refer back to this often though.

See book:
Not One Inch: America, Russia, and the Making of Post-Cold War Stalemate.

Ukraine was/is free to join NATO according to the NATO-Russia Founding Act , which Russia explicitly signed.

I've seen no evidence of anything that supercedes or releases Russia from the terms they agreed to in this agreement.

Russia can't just change their mind later and make the agreement they signed go away.

 

[beast blazer]

Ukraine was/is free to join NATO according to the NATO-Russia Founding Act , which Russia explicitly signed.

I've seen no evidence of anything that supercedes or releases Russia from the terms they agreed to in this agreement.

Russia can't just change their mind later and make the agreement they signed go away.

Ukraine is "free to" aside from that act. Again, we're not talking about treaties or international laws, but Russian perception. You're free to fuck another man's wife, but that will trigger a reaction would could be violent.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ukraine is "free to" aside from that act. Again, we're not talking about treaties or international laws, but Russian perception. You're free to fuck another man's wife, but that will trigger a reaction would could be violent.

There are documents that make another man's wife no longer his wife. Then you are legally allowed to fuck her all you and she want with no lawful backlash to either of you. The aformentioned agreement is the equivalent of that. Russia signed it. They don't get to un-sign. Ukraine doesn't want that relationship with Russia anymore and the US wants to support Ukraine, and even has obligations to do so.

You are wrong. You are 100% wrong. Russia is wrong, and has NO right. Ukraine is right, and well within their rights. And the US and NATO are well within their rights to help Ukriane.

Fuck Russia and anybody who supports them.

 

[noknobs]

There are documents that make another man's wife no longer his wife. Then you are legally allowed to fuck her all you and she want with no lawful backlash to either of you. The aformentioned agreement is the equivalent of that. Russia signed it. They don't get to un-sign. Ukraine doesn't want that relationship with Russia anymore and the US wants to support Ukraine, and even has obligations to do so.

You are wrong. You are 100% wrong. Russia is wrong, and has NO right. Ukraine is right, and well within their rights. And the US and NATO are well within their rights to help Ukriane.

Fuck Russia and anybody who supports them.

Why waste your time on someone clearly incapable of grasping even the most simple of concepts? It's like arguing with a rock that learned how to use a computer.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Why waste your time on someone clearly incapable of grasping even the most simple of concepts? It's like arguing with a rock that learned how to use a computer.

It just feels like allowing it to stay up there uncontested is harmful to humanity.

Like it seemed harmless when Bill Clinton allowed US media to be bought up by Rupert Murdock and Baine capital and then push Fox News and all of the AM radio propaganda to the old people and blue collar workers... It seemed harmless because what kind of fucking idiot would believe that bullshit without verifying it?

Then, we got Dubya and Donald Fucking Trump dropped on our laps. And what's the best we're able to come up with to counter that kind of evil? Joe Biden.

I don't know man... It just seems wrong to allow that ignorance to go unchallenged...

 

[barfo]

Why waste your time on someone clearly incapable of grasping even the most simple of concepts? It's like arguing with a rock that learned how to use a computer.

Speaking of rocks... probably everyone needs a game where a pizza and a falcon play rock paper scissors outside a warehouse, right?

barfo

 

[oldfisherman]

It appears Russia is moving what remains of their air defense systems out of Crimea. And placing them on the northern front, to protect Russian land.

Putin is doing everything he can to not declare a full blown draft, to refill the ranks.

First he emptied the prisons.

Then he recruited from foreign countries. Loses of these new troops were so high. Several countries made it illegal for their citizens to join the Russian army.

Next he recruited heavily in African countries. Offering factory jobs to the wives of any husband that joined the Russian army.

In need of more troops. Putin is doing the unthinkable. Forcing foreign migrant workers to join his army. There are even reports of foreign students studying in Russian universities being force to join the army, or give up their education, and go home.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

It appears Russia is moving what remains of their air defense systems out of Crimea. And placing them on the northern front, to protect Russian land.

Putin is doing everything he can to not declare a full blown draft, to refill the ranks.

First he emptied the prisons.

Then he recruited from foreign countries. Loses of these new troops were so high. Several countries made it illegal for their citizens to join the Russian army.

Next he recruited heavily in African countries. Offering factory jobs to the wives of any husband that joined the Russian army.

In need of more troops. Putin is doing the unthinkable. Forcing foreign migrant workers to join his army. There are even reports of foreign students studying in Russian universities being force to join the army, or give up their education, and go home.

Why is Ukraine being so cruel to Putin? Damn Obama!

 

[Shaboid]

It appears Russia is moving what remains of their air defense systems out of Crimea. And placing them on the northern front, to protect Russian land.

Putin is doing everything he can to not declare a full blown draft, to refill the ranks.

First he emptied the prisons.

Then he recruited from foreign countries. Loses of these new troops were so high. Several countries made it illegal for their citizens to join the Russian army.

Next he recruited heavily in African countries. Offering factory jobs to the wives of any husband that joined the Russian army.

In need of more troops. Putin is doing the unthinkable. Forcing foreign migrant workers to join his army. There are even reports of foreign students studying in Russian universities being force to join the army, or give up their education, and go home.

Recruiting and also sending weapons to Sudan. There should probably be a thread for that war too as I think the loss of human life there may be greater than both Ukraine and Gaza combined. It's bad.

 

[beast blazer]

There are documents that make another man's wife no longer his wife. Then you are legally allowed to fuck her all you and she want with no lawful backlash to either of you. The aformentioned agreement is the equivalent of that. Russia signed it. They don't get to un-sign. Ukraine doesn't want that relationship with Russia anymore and the US wants to support Ukraine, and even has obligations to do so.

You are wrong. You are 100% wrong. Russia is wrong, and has NO right. Ukraine is right, and well within their rights. And the US and NATO are well within their rights to help Ukriane.

Fuck Russia and anybody who supports them.

The point went over your head. Adultry is not illegal in this country. I thought everyone knew that. You keep harping on a point that no one is contesting. No treaty, no law would be violated by Ukraine joining NATO, and no law or official treaty was violated by NATO expanding eastward. That is not the point.

"Fuck Russia" ok. Brilliant.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The point went over your head. Adultry is not illegal in this country. I thought everyone knew that. You keep harping on a point that no one is contesting. No treaty, no law would be violated by Ukraine joining NATO, and no law or official treaty was violated by NATO expanding eastward. That is not the point.

"Fuck Russia" ok. Brilliant.

That actually is the point. Because the US didn't break any treaties or do anything they agreed not to do. Neither did Ukraine. Russia broke all the treaties did things they specifically said they would not and were not doing and attacked civilians in an attempt at empire building.

Russia is wrong. You are wrong. Any way you want to look at it.

*Edit* And yes, adultery can be held against you in divorce proceedings (which is a legal proceeding). And it is generally considered acceptable to sleep with somebody after their divorce is final. So anybody upset that the ex-wife they signed a paper to legally divorce is sleeping with somebody else, Russia (being upset Ukraine divorced them and is sleeping with the whole NATO varsity team if it wants) is in the wrong.

 

[oldfisherman]

New report just in.

Ukraine started the day with large numbers of drones taking out air defenses along the northern front.

This was followed by a huge HIMARS barage, of probably more than 300 rockets.

Then the Ukraine airforce went to work with attack jets and helicopters, attacking along the Russian front.

Not to be outdone, the artillery cleaned up what was left.

No reports yet of Russian casualties and equipment lost. But it was a bad day to be a Russian soldier along their northern front.

Just guessing, but Ukraine maybe preparing the battlefield to start a counter attack soon. Taking back their northern land.

 

[oldfisherman]

The northern front is heating up.

A Ukrainian special forces unit crossed the border into Russia. They were not detected, and manage to travel to, then enter the heavily guarded Russian airforce base in Belgorod.

Their main target was to take out the ballistic missiles. This target was too risky, so they destroyed a secondary target. The main hanger with 4 SU35 fighter jets, and lots of fuel, ammo and other equipment.

It is believed they escaped without casualties.

Keep in mind, these are very early reports.

 

[beast blazer]

New report just in.

Ukraine started the day with large numbers of drones taking out air defenses along the northern front.

This was followed by a huge HIMARS barage, of probably more than 300 rockets.

Then the Ukraine airforce went to work with attack jets and helicopters, attacking along the Russian front.

Not to be outdone, the artillery cleaned up what was left.

No reports yet of Russian casualties and equipment lost. But it was a bad day to be a Russian soldier along their northern front.

Just guessing, but Ukraine maybe preparing the battlefield to start a counter attack soon. Taking back their northern land.

You guys are still talking about Ukraine's fantasy airforce? The "Ghost of Kyiv"....

 

[oldfisherman]

Very quiet this morning, no new news, yet. Not sure what that means?

An update on Ukraine's airforce part of yesterdays attacks.

For the first time since the start of this war. Ukraine aircraft entered Russian territory. The jets attacked a Russian military headquarters building near Belgorod. They reported direct hits.

Video leaked out of Russia confirms the entire building in huge flames. Anything inside the building was not only destroyed. It was incinerated.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Very quite this morning, no new news, yet. Not sure what that means?

An update on Ukraine's airforce part of yesterdays attacks.

For the first time since the start of this war. Ukraine aircraft entered Russian territory. The jets attacked a Russian military headquarters building near Belgorod. They reported direct hits.

Video leaked out of Russia confirms the entire building in huge flames. Anything inside the building was not only destroyed. It was incinerated.

Don't forget that Ukrainian fired ATACMs destroyed three air defense systems in Crimea.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Oh, wow! she really tells it like it is. Probably talking fast in the hope she gets her message out before her arrest. I hope she is already out of the country or on her way.

 

[oldfisherman]

Ukraine has been very busy for several weeks attacking Russia's S300 & S400 air defense missile units. Ukraine has destroyed so many, I have lost count.

These Russian air defense systems were advertised to be far better than anything the USA has. Not so. They can not even defend themselves against the very air threats they were designed to take down. They have destroyed some air threats, but, not a high %.

It appears Ukraine wants to remove as many Russian air defense systems as possible. Probably to make it safer for F16 fighter jets to opperate.

 

[beast blazer]

There is still no sign that the US or NATO want to bring an end to the conflict. A sampling of statements made by various leaders. Not that this is surprising, given the way they are ramping up military involvement.

The Senate also passed a bill which would make registration for the draft automatic. And the ACLU is pushing to make females be included in the draft.

I have a serious problem with the draft, seeing as how the US hasn't fought a defensive war since 1942. They use kids as pawns in their games of world domination. How many of you would like to see your kids drafted to go fight the Russians in Ukraine?