Unarmed South Florida man with hands up shot by police while calming autistic patient

[Hobbesarable]

I can only speculate that, from a distance (it didn't appear that there was a cop closer than 60 feet), the shiny long object in the man's hand MAY have given the police suspicion that it might have been a firearm.

I wonder if the officers were in possession of police issue binoculars and used them to fully understand the situation by locating the possible suspects and potential objects/weapons involved. I think that would be one of the first logical steps in their mind before putting themselves into a potential threatening confrontation.

 

[Jade Falcon]

I wonder if the officers were in possession of police issue binoculars and used them to fully understand the situation by locating the possible suspects and potential objects/weapons involved. I think that would be one of the first logical steps in their mind before putting themselves into a potential threatening confrontation.

Completely agree. IMO, every department should have at least one pair per shift, per precinct. With the option to supply your own and keep them in your kit as necessary.

The more tools that police have at their disposal to make sure that BOTH sides go home safe, the better. Whether it be a TAZER or a pair of binoculars. Everyone wins when nobody dies.

 

[Nikolokolus]

8, not 5. And I hope you aren't making light of tensions among police after such tragedies by stating "itchy trigger finger"?

I'm starting to lose count. And making light? How do you figure? I honestly believe that in the wake of all the violence cops are going to be even more on-edge and aggressive.

 

[Natebishop3]

Stop hiring former military.

Just stop.

I understand that those guys don't have many options once they get out of the service because their trade is killing people, but this is not the right job for them. Police are supposed to save lives.... not take them. It's completely counter intuitive to what military are trained for.

 

[barfo]

Stop hiring former military.

Just stop.

I understand that those guys don't have many options once they get out of the service because their trade is killing people, but this is not the right job for them. Police are supposed to save lives.... not take them. It's completely counter intuitive to what military are trained for.

We don't have a lot of other openings for jobs involving killing people, though.

Maybe the military should be like the Hotel California?

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

 

[Nikolokolus]

Stop hiring former military.

Just stop.

I understand that those guys don't have many options once they get out of the service because their trade is killing people, but this is not the right job for them. Police are supposed to save lives.... not take them. It's completely counter intuitive to what military are trained for.

Precisely. Armies are good at one thing, breaking things and taking/holding territory. About the only MOS that makes any sense as a translatable skill is an MP.

 

[Jade Falcon]

I'm starting to lose count. And making light? How do you figure? I honestly believe that in the wake of all the violence cops are going to be even more on-edge and aggressive.

It was nothing personal. I just thought the term "itchy trigger finger" was said as a form of sarcasm. And there's nothing sarcastic or funny about what's going on right now; either from the perspective of the police or the civilians. And if you ask me, losing 8 officers in the deadliest week for Police in this country since 9/11, they have a right to be on edge, and I can't blame them for being so.

Stop hiring former military.

Just stop.

I understand that those guys don't have many options once they get out of the service because their trade is killing people, but this is not the right job for them. Police are supposed to save lives.... not take them. It's completely counter intuitive to what military are trained for.

At the same time, however, former military members bring a mindset and discipline to Law Enforcement that is much needed. Not to mention that much of their training can transfer to Law Enforcement very effectively.....when used appropriately.

Folks, I want to invite you to check out a man who's work I've followed for many years. I have many of his books, and I've had the pleasure of corresponding with him through the forum GlockTalk. That man is Massad Ayoob.

From his website:

Massad Ayoob has been handgun editor of GUNS magazine and law enforcement editor of AMERICAN HANDGUNNER since the 1970s, and has published thousands of articles in gun magazines, martial arts publications, and law enforcement journals. He is the author of more than a dozen books on firearms, self-defense, and related topics, including “In the Gravest Extreme,” widely considered to be the authoritative text on the topic of the use of lethal force.

The winner of the Outstanding American Handgunner of the Year Award in 1998, Mas has won several state and regional handgun shooting championships. Ayoob is one of approximately ten Five Gun Masters among the 10,000-member International Defensive Pistol Association, and was the first to earn that title. He served 19 years as chair of the Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, and several years as a member of the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association. In addition to teaching for those groups, he has also taught for the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors and the International Homicide Investigators seminars.


Mas has received judicial recognition as an expert witness for the courts in weapons and shooting cases since 1979, and has been a fully sworn and empowered, part time police officer for over three decades. Ayoob founded the Lethal Force Institute in 1981 and served as its director until 2009, and now trains through Massad Ayoob Group. He has appeared on CLE-TV delivering continuing legal education for attorneys, through the American Law Institute and American Bar Association, and has been retained to train attorneys to handle deadly force cases through the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Ayoob served for two years as co-vice chair of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He also appeared in each episode of Personal Defense TV (Sportsman’s Channel).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

His personal blog, which he updates regularly:

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/
His experience speaks for itself. He's far from just an armchair commando author. He's studied these cases in person for about 40 years, including autopsies and trauma-room experience. He's also defended both civilians and police officers in court, as well as provided key evidence as an Expert Witness in numerous cases.

He follows these incidents very carefully, and is a bastion of wisdom when it comes to them. You may not always agree with what he says, but he DOES know what he's talking about. Give his blog a read when you get a chance. He takes emotion out of the equation and approaches things with logic and reason.

If anyone can answer the questions of how we can better police work in this country, it's him. And if it's anyone who admits that Law Enforcement needs to constantly be evolving for the better.....it's him.

If you would like to email him personally:

mas@massadayoob.com

 

[Minstrel]

The bad policemen are getting the good ones shot. Perhaps if more police departments looked at it that way, they'd be more interested in holding the murderous ones accountable, getting them out of the police force and into jail.

 

[oldfisherman]

Stop hiring former military.

Just stop.

I understand that those guys don't have many options once they get out of the service because their trade is killing people, but this is not the right job for them. Police are supposed to save lives.... not take them. It's completely counter intuitive to what military are trained for.

Your post begs the question. Did you serve in the any branch of the armed forces?

To be honest, it does not sound like it. If you did, it probably was with an MOS that required little to no training of firearms. I strongly disagree with your post, for several reasons.

Military personnel going into harms way receive extensive training to properly identify hostile targets. This also includes training to identify armed military personnel that are our allies, as well as identifying civilians. They are taught to identify a threat BEFORE FIRING their weapon.

During my 6 years in the Marines, I was placed on temporary duty with their MPs. Their training was similar to civilian police training, but with a stronger emphasis on shooting accuracy. Every Marine must qualify with their weapon on a regular basis. Marines that do not qualify are not given promotions and often drummed out of the service. That includes every Marine from cooks to the Commandant.

Any retired military MP would make an excellent LE officer in civilian life. And so would soldiers with ground combat experience.



One of the problems with our civilian police is they do not receive enough training in shooting situations. Also, too many of them are not very good shooters. The accuracy rating for the average LE officer is way below acceptable standards, and not even close to military standards.

It is the under trained LE officers that make mistakes.

 

[blue32]

Not a lot of hoopla from BLM going on about this unarmed black person getting shot.....Why? My thoughts are probably because it was a Hispanic police officer that shot him...


Edit: and LOL the officer was a member of SWAT... wow that guy needs to resign.

 

[Denny Crane]

Not a lot of hoopla from BLM going on about this unarmed black person getting shot.....Why? My thoughts are probably because it was a Hispanic police officer that shot him...


Edit: and LOL the officer was a member of SWAT... wow that guy needs to resign.

The guy wasn't killed.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't? (Protest)

 

[blue32]

The guy wasn't killed.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't? (Protest)

Got it. Seemed weird to me. Being selective on the protesting. But I guess with as much black on black crime in Chicago for example, they have to be kinda picky.

 

[Denny Crane]

Got it. Seemed weird to me. Being selective on the protesting. But I guess with as much black on black crime in Chicago for example, they have to be kinda picky.

I thin they're seriously protesting in general. Especially in D.C. where they can lobby the feds to make sure the states and municipalities get their acts together.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Fucking autistic people. Them fuckers and people with other mental illnesses are taking away our excuses.

Like, don't drive with your taillights out and cops won't kill you.

Or don't sell loose cigarettes and be fat and you won't die.

Now there isn't any rule to follow. Hands up? Bang
Unarmed? Bang

I wouldn't expect anything from people who are trained to shoot dogs just for shits and grins, but I didn't think I could have less respect for cops than I already did. Between that moronic woman cop getting that crazy little guy shot in the face and this.....jeeeez.

 

[blue32]

Fucking autistic people. Them fuckers and people with other mental illnesses are taking away our excuses.

Like, don't drive with your taillights out and cops won't kill you.

Or don't sell loose cigarettes and be fat and you won't die.

Now there isn't any rule to follow. Hands up? Bang
Unarmed? Bang

I wouldn't expect anything from people who are trained to shoot dogs just for shits and grins, but I didn't think I could have less respect for cops than I already did. Between that moronic woman cop getting that crazy little guy shot in the face and this.....jeeeez.

I am pretty positive its A) their training, and B) the people doing it as a job get so fucking edgy after dealing with shit bags day in and day out that any normal person would have quit.

No excuses for the shit policing here and I really think they need to start reforming their training. It's just hard when you have places like Chicago and DC poppin' off with gun crime constantly.

If you can't hear the person on the ground like the cop said, then how the fuck do you think they can hear you? sofa king dumb.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

The police need to stop assuming the worst about people. They don't need to go into every situation with guns drawn. They certainly don't need to point guns at a guy who's laying in the street with his hands up and in plain view.

The cops brought guns to a toy truck fight.

The only way to stop a bad guy with a concealed toy truck is a good guy with a gun.

 

[Sinobas]

If I were a police officer, I'd be so irrate at a cop that would do something like this, especially at this juncture. Oh man....there wasn't even a struggle going on here, just a guy laying on the ground with his hands up and they shot him??? They should shoot that cop in the leg.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I'm wondering if the person taking the video stopped before the shooting or edited out the shooting? We don't know if the autistic kid aimed his truck at the police and started going, "Pew.. Pew... Pew Pew Pew!"

 

[Sinobas]

Even though he wasn't killed, this is the most clear cut case of the police being waaaay out of line that we've seen in awhile. This shooting is outrageous beyond belief. The officer that did this should go to prison really.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

I am pretty pro police when it comes to all these things, but seriously? That cop needs to be terminated immediately and brought up on attempted murder charges.

Killings last week or not, his job is to protect and to serve. That man had his hands up and was in absolutely no position to cause harm to the police

my thoughts exactly. im very pro police but somethings are just inexcusable. i've sided with cops on most of these recent issues but this just isnt one of them. someone needs to be fired.

the conspiracy theorist in me has me thinking mind control or psyop shit. i just dont want to believe these cops are this poorly trained.

 

[Chris Craig]

The guy wasn't killed.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't? (Protest)

He just became a millionaire

 

[Jade Falcon]

my thoughts exactly. im very pro police but somethings are just inexcusable. i've sided with cops on most of these recent issues but this just isnt one of them. someone needs to be fired.

the conspiracy theorist in me has me thinking mind control or psyop shit. i just dont want to believe these cops are this poorly trained.

When I was with our local Explorer post (1997-2004), the Vancouver Police Department did Rapid Deployment Training about every 3 months or so. They would use Schools on the weekend, as well as the Fort Vancouver Barracks. These were regular beat cops; the Clark County Regional SWAT Team had their own thing going on elsewhere, IIRC.

And range training, IIRC, was required every 6 months. I knew an Officer with the Traffic Division, who became a mentor of mine who I still speak with occasionally by email, who had some sort of training every month, whether it be range time, Motorcycle Pursuit Tactics (being close to PIR has its advantages), or classroom time at the local training facility. I'm not sure if his training regimen depended on being a Motorcycle Officer or the fact that he just wanted to keep up on his training.

I'm not sure if, in this case, you can call it a "lack of training". Perhaps more required training per month is what's needed?

I happen to know that this gentleman went through about 3 relationships (including 2 marriages) in the time that I knew him. And I have a feeling the job played a big factor in that. When you work 12+ hours a day, and then are called in at random for special assignments and training, it probably adds up to not having much of a home-life.

 

[Chris Craig]

Thank you. So pretty much what we already suspected: someone called 9-1-1 worried that someone had a gun and was a danger to themselves and/or the public.

I can only speculate that, from a distance (it didn't appear that there was a cop closer than 60 feet), the shiny long object in the man's hand MAY have given the police suspicion that it might have been a firearm.

Obviously, again: better communication could have avoided all of this nonsense.

Unfortunately, many police officers are going to be wound up after last week's murders in Dallas and Baton Rouge. But I think they went quite a bit extreme here. But I would encourage the public to understand that, when the police show up to situations involving guns, that they are taking extra caution and measures. It's all too easy after these ambushes to see that a 9-1-1 caller could lead responding police into an ambush.

I think, therefore, that we have to acknowledge that they just aren't taking any chances, and that it's REALLY not the time to fuck around with them. I am NOT saying that's what happened here. But if it's something I could say to the public, it would be this: cooperate COMPLETELY, do NOT play SJW with them while they have their guns drawn on you, and be vigilant.

There is a difference between extra caution and measures and running in guns blazing...just because cops were killed by some mentally ill dudes( and no I'm not making light of it) does not give them right to just shoot people and say oh I thought it was an ambush...these kind of tactics will further damage police/civilian relations. Extra caution and measures is falling back till the situation can be figured out...this was murder and the cop who fired his gun should be locked up...so too should the person who phoned in a false 911 call

 

[rasheedfan2005]

When I was with our local Explorer post (1997-2004), the Vancouver Police Department did Rapid Deployment Training about every 3 months or so. They would use Schools on the weekend, as well as the Fort Vancouver Barracks. These were regular beat cops; the Clark County Regional SWAT Team had their own thing going on elsewhere, IIRC.

And range training, IIRC, was required every 6 months. I knew an Officer with the Traffic Division, who became a mentor of mine who I still speak with occasionally by email, who had some sort of training every month, whether it be range time, Motorcycle Pursuit Tactics (being close to PIR has its advantages), or classroom time at the local training facility. I'm not sure if his training regimen depended on being a Motorcycle Officer or the fact that he just wanted to keep up on his training.

I'm not sure if, in this case, you can call it a "lack of training". Perhaps more required training per month is what's needed?

I happen to know that this gentleman went through about 3 relationships (including 2 marriages) in the time that I knew him. And I have a feeling the job played a big factor in that. When you work 12+ hours a day, and then are called in at random for special assignments and training, it probably adds up to not having much of a home-life.

Trust me i know the hours and training make for a horrible home life. Which is a major factor ill be 30 in december and still single with no kids. That and i cant stand women who have no sense which eliminates 99% of american women.

 

[Jade Falcon]

There is a difference between extra caution and measures and running in guns blazing...just because cops were killed by some mentally ill dudes( and no I'm not making light of it) does not give them right to just shoot people and say oh I thought it was an ambush...these kind of tactics will further damage police/civilian relations. Extra caution and measures is falling back till the situation can be figured out...this was murder and the cop who fired his gun should be locked up...so too should the person who phoned in a false 911 call

I agree that this could have been handled a LOT better. I'm very thankful the guy just received a non-mortal leg wound rather than a fatal injury.

Trust me i know the hours and training make for a horrible home life. Which is a major factor ill be 30 in december and still single with no kids. That and i cant stand women who have no sense which eliminates 99% of american women.

I worked graveyard for 6 strait years with 1 vacation in all that time. I know what you mean: it makes for a shit home life. I'm 33, still single, and no kids.

Just curious: are you Sworn? I believe someone on this forum works as a Police Officer, but I can't remember whom.....

 

[rasheedfan2005]

I agree that this could have been handled a LOT better. I'm very thankful the guy just received a non-mortal leg wound rather than a fatal injury.



I worked graveyard for 6 strait years with 1 vacation in all that time. I know what you mean: it makes for a shit home life. I'm 33, still single, and no kids.

Just curious: are you Sworn? I believe someone on this forum works as a Police Officer, but I can't remember whom.....

I cant talk about it on a public forum much, especially with how much of an ass hole i am.

I dont think ive had a true vacation ever. Just periods of unemployment where i didnt do anything but fill out apps. Lol

 

[Jade Falcon]

I cant talk about it on a public forum much, especially with how much of an ass hole i am.

I dont think ive had a true vacation ever. Just periods of unemployment where i didnt do anything but fill out apps. Lol

lol, I hear ya bro. Thanks for the hard work you've done for our community.

 

[Denny Crane]

He just became a millionaire

As he should. They should take it out of the police department's firearms budget.

 

[Jade Falcon]

As he should. They should take it out of the police department's firearms budget.

So.....take it out of the budget that also supplies their firearms training......which they clearly need?

Explain that one to me.

It doesn't make sense to punish the department for the actions of one dumbass. The likelihood of them needing those firearms to perform their duties and to defend themselves far outweigh the risk that they will either be abused or mishandled by negligence or incompetence.