Politics Venezuela

[Chris Craig]

Mexico and Brazil have expressed outrage in Trump crossing the line by this action. Trump continues to threaten to do the same in Mexico.

They don't have enough oil

 

[2Fluffy4U]

View attachment 79061

Just want to point out that in 2013, the World looked a lot different than today.
Russia was at Peak Power, Iran was at Peak power, The Middle East had Peak 'Muslim brotherhood' surge (Arab spring)..
Today - you have a weak Russia unable to win a war with Ukraine without US intervention, you have Iran at its lowest financial and military power, you have the Middle East reshaped by Qatar and Saudia Arabia (more western and pragmatic and religious zealots..
So all in all, probablity for WWIII IMO is actually lower these days, and that is why Trump allows himself these moves.. but that is just how I see it. And yes, most here will disagree with me.. just sharing other POV..

 

[Chris Craig]

The next Iraq

 

[Chris Craig]

My father came to this country from Venezuela. I still have family there. Venezuela has a long and proud history of being the leader of democracy in all of South America. It is truly one of the most beautiful places on earth. I hope this is about restoring democracy there and not just an oil grab.

Unfortunately, it appears to be an oil grab. We will see.

 

[2Fluffy4U]

So basically, might makes right.

We're stronger militarily than other sovereign nations, so that gives us the right to take their stuff? That's a fucked up world view, and short sighted.

If the U.S decides to do take Netanyahu and put him to trial in Hague / NY - would you consider it as reasonable? Would you agree or oppose to it?

 

[ehizzy3]

Why is that funny? A lot of people around the world think exactly like me..
So my view is just to be easily cancelled?
Or can you comment as to what is wrong with my logic. Or why you disagree.

it was a funny post

 

[2Fluffy4U]

Unfortunately, it appears to be an oil grab. We will see.

I think it is an oil grab targeted at Iran. Venezuela was feeding and funding the Iraninan regime.. taking it down would cascade and have impact on Iran..

 

[riverman]

Invading any sovereign nation that has not declared war on the US unless sanctioned by Congress to use military force is wrong. It's wrong for Russia, it's wrong for the US. Trump is trying to annex sovereign nations and has been since elected. Denmark is addressing this today. I don't for a second believe that imperialism is a natural human aftereffect of being a civilized nation. I call BS on that statement. Civilized nations should always use diplomacy to conduct foreign affairs. If Venezuela bombed the US or arrested US citizens living there, it would be different. This is not Osama Bin Laden, who had declared war on the US. The saving grace here is no civilians were killed in this kidnapping of Maduro and his wife.

 

[Chris Craig]

Invading any sovereign nation that has not declared war on the US unless sanctioned by Congress to use military force is wrong. It's wrong for Russia, it's wrong for the US. Trump is trying to annex sovereign nations and has been since elected. Denmark is addressing this today. I don't for a second believe that imperialism is a natural human aftereffect of being a civilized nation. I call BS on that statement. Civilized nations should always use diplomacy to conduct foreign affairs. If Venezuela bombed the US or arrested US citizens living there, it would be different. This is not Osama Bin Laden, who had declared war on the US.

We've done this for decades. Sent in the jackals, organized revolutions, executed coups, and installed US friendly leaders, all to pillage natural resources. Trump, just did it the fast way. Though, I guess threats, bribes, or the utilization of internal conflict wasn't going to work with Maduro.

Congress did not sanction this, and that has been the law, but the SC upended that when they gave Trump supreme power. Congress is now more ornamental than anything. Doesn't help that the republican majority is allowing for their power of checks and balances to be undermined and diluted.

Denmark has got to be shitting itself about now. If Trump will do this to Venezuela, he will do it to Greenland.

 

[riverman]

We've done this for decades. Sent in the jackals, organized revolutions, executed coups, and installed US friendly leaders, all to pillage natural resources. Trump, just did it the fast way. Though, I guess threats, bribes, or the utilization of internal conflict wasn't going to work with Maduro.

Congress did not sanction this, and that has been the law, but the SC upended that when they gave Trump supreme power. Congress is now more ornamental than anything. Doesn't help that the republican majority is allowing for their power of checks and balances to be undermined and diluted.

Not sure about that CC...we didn't take over Pakistan when we killed bin Laden nor Iraq when we toppled Hussein. Denmark is preparing for war over Greenland.....anybody see that over the past decades or the threat to annex Canada? These are uncharted waters in American history. We've always had black ops under the guise of the DEA that fed uprisings, etc but this is the president saying we're going to run their country.....no president has done that or we'd own Germany and Japan, Nicauragua and El Salvador today.

 

[2Fluffy4U]

Invading any sovereign nation that has not declared war on the US unless sanctioned by Congress to use military force is wrong. It's wrong for Russia, it's wrong for the US. Trump is trying to annex sovereign nations and has been since elected. Denmark is addressing this today. I don't for a second believe that imperialism is a natural human aftereffect of being a civilized nation. I call BS on that statement. Civilized nations should always use diplomacy to conduct foreign affairs. If Venezuela bombed the US or arrested US citizens living there, it would be different. This is not Osama Bin Laden, who had declared war on the US. The saving grace here is no civilians were killed in this kidnapping of Maduro and his wife.

And what happens in case one civilised entity (Russia, Turkey, Israel, Qatar, Venezuela, China and so on) does not agree with you and decide not to use diplomacy to conduct foreign affairs?
For example, business is not diplomacy, but what happens if someone decide to sell / buy weapons? Buy/ sell drugs? You are going to solve it via diplomacy alone?
Because I can assure you, that behind the preety word of 'diplomacy', lay the actual matter which is as stated here - Oil, Drugs, Weapons - which bottom line translates to money and Power.

 

[Chris Craig]

Not sure about that CC...we didn't take over Pakistan when we killed bin Laden nor Iraq when we toppled Hussein. Denmark is preparing for war over Greenland.....anybody see that over the past decades or the threat to annex Canada? These are uncharted waters in American history. We've always had black ops under the guise of the DEA that fed uprisings, etc but this is the president saying we're going to run their country.....no president has done that or we'd own Germany and Japan, Nicauragua and Costa Rico today.

No president has straight up kidnapped a sovereign countries leader and straight up taken it over. Trump is in that alone. I agree.

In the past it had been more so about putting poor countries in our debt by going in and bribing leaders, commencing building projects and then asked for resources in return. This is far far different, though same result. Its about the resources.

 

[crandc]

Ideologically speaking, I am not for Imperialism. However, the world is not pink. So I rather have USA as strongest power in the world, over other countries that are seeking power these days.
Living in the US and enoying its privilges is not a bad thing at all, and promoting ties (power) with other regions of the world that can share values and interests that allign is a win-win IMO.

Venezuela under Maduro is not a country leading towards global peace and quiet for all mankind..

Edit - following futher thinking, I amend my inital take - I think Imperalism is Fact. Humanity trait. Historically speaking the minute Humans led socializing lives - Imperialism became a constant fact. So Ideologically speaking - I am not for or against it - it is just intrinsic to being human in societies. (Power=Empire)

Promoting ties? By invasion? Trump already declared he will run Venezuela until they install a government he likes. How does he get to decide what government other countries have? He threatened Canada and Greenland. Left Ukraine hanging. Quarreled with European allies. Ended US Agency for International Development, in just one year hundreds of thousands have died from hunger and disease as a result. Turned his back on allies. Groveled before Putin.
Imperialism isn't human nature it is a social construct of late stage capitalism. Which is another topic.
Maduro isn't a nice guy. Should the US invade and conquer every country whose leadership isn't nice? Trump has 34 felony convictions. He has threatened to annex Canada. Should Canada come kidnap him by force and install a government more to their liking? Life in US would probably improve!

 

[riverman]

And what happens in case one civilised entity (Russia, Turkey, Israel, Qatar, Venezuela, China and so on) does not agree with you and decide not to use diplomacy to conduct foreign affairs?
For example, business is not diplomacy, but what happens if someone decide to sell / buy weapons? Buy/ sell drugs? You are going to solve it via diplomacy alone?
Because I can assure you, that behind the preety word of 'diplomacy', lay the actual matter which is as stated here - Oil, Drugs, Weapons - which bottom line translates to money and Power.

Actually if you are a student of history, diplomacy is more than a "pretty word" See McArthur's handling of the surrender of Japan or the US handling of Germany post WWII.....we have granted many former 'territories" independence from US rule stopping us from building empires because we were civilized and respected sovereign nation status. That's gone with this administration. Has never been our policy to abuse power for annexation of weaker countries.The biggest exception would be the Native American tribes when we carved out this country and formed it.

 

[riverman]

And what happens in case one civilised entity (Russia, Turkey, Israel, Qatar, Venezuela, China and so on) does not agree with you and decide not to use diplomacy to conduct foreign affairs?
For example, business is not diplomacy, but what happens if someone decide to sell / buy weapons? Buy/ sell drugs? You are going to solve it via diplomacy alone?
Because I can assure you, that behind the preety word of 'diplomacy', lay the actual matter which is as stated here - Oil, Drugs, Weapons - which bottom line translates to money and Power.

I wanted to ask you how you feel Israel is justified in denying Doctors without borders into Gaza or any other humanitarian organizations? Do you find that justifiable?

 

[Chris Craig]

And what happens in case one civilised entity (Russia, Turkey, Israel, Qatar, Venezuela, China and so on) does not agree with you and decide not to use diplomacy to conduct foreign affairs?
For example, business is not diplomacy, but what happens if someone decide to sell / buy weapons? Buy/ sell drugs? You are going to solve it via diplomacy alone?
Because I can assure you, that behind the preety word of 'diplomacy', lay the actual matter which is as stated here - Oil, Drugs, Weapons - which bottom line translates to money and Power.

You can solve a lot with diplomacy. You can't solve everything with it. War is sometimes necessary, but should always be the last resort and it should always be executed through the proper channels, i.e with the approval of congress. But, alas the three branches of government are really just one now.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Why is that funny? A lot of people around the world think exactly like me..
So my view is just to be easily cancelled?
Or can you comment as to what is wrong with my logic. Or why you disagree.

Bibi? Is that you...??

 

[2Fluffy4U]

You can solve a lot with diplomacy. You can't solve everything with it. War is sometimes necessary, but should always be the last resort and it should always be executed through the proper channels, i.e with the approval of congress. But, alas the three branches of government are really just one now.

I agree 100%

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I think it is an oil grab targeted at Iran. Venezuela was feeding and funding the Iraninan regime.. taking it down would cascade and have impact on Iran..

Venezuela was not feeding and funding the Iranian regime. That's just silly. They've not even been able to help Cuba these last few years. They don't have anything to give Iran that Iran doesn't have itself or can get elsewhere.

 

[2Fluffy4U]

I wanted to ask you how you feel Israel is justified in denying Doctors without borders into Gaza or any other humanitarian organizations? Do you find that justifiable?

Yes I do. This is a good example for information being portrayed 'half baked'.
Read this article via google translate:

העימות בין ישראל ל"רופאים ללא גבולות" אחרי שנאסרה פעילותו בעזה: "בארגון יש מחבלים"

ישראל דורשת מארגונים בינלאומיים הפועלים ברצועת עזה להשלים את הליך הרישום שלהם, אחרי שהתברר כי בגופים יש עובדים שמעורבים בטרור. רישיון הפעילות של ארגון "רופאים ללא גבולות" נשלל, והוא מסר שהוא ממתין לחידוש. במתפ״ש טוענים שהארגון סירב למסור את רשימת העובדים, ופרסם שקרים על פעילותו ברצועה: "לא צירוף...

www.ynet.co.il

"Israel is demanding that international organizations operating in the Gaza Strip complete their registration process, after it emerged that the organizations have employees involved in terrorism. The operating license of the organization "Doctors Without Borders" was revoked, and it said it was waiting for its renewal. The IDF claims that the organization refused to provide a list of employees, and published lies about its activities in the Gaza Strip: "It is no coincidence that it refused to cooperate"

So sure, they can say they are not allowed in (and most will defenitly choose to not believe anything the comes from Israeli media/IDF). But I can justify not wanting foul play by those organisations.
I would allow American Media outlet or any outlet the passed this licensing procedure in easily, but I would very much oppose Al Jazeera to enter.
It is Justifiable IMO. But I understand it sounds harsh..

 

[2Fluffy4U]

Venezuela was not feeding and funding the Iranian regime. That's just silly. They've not even been able to help Cuba these last few years. They don't have anything to give Iran that Iran doesn't have itself or can get elsewhere.

Iran–Venezuela relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'Iran's petroleum exports hit a new high in early 2023 due to increased shipments to Venezuela and China. Iran had supported Venezuela's oil exports, and its navy established a presence in Panama Canal for the first time ever. The two countries also announced direct flights between Tehran and Caracas starting in August 2023.
Or
A naval base option in 2022, among other listed in link.

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Yes, Venezuela has the world's largest oil reserves. But let's look into that a little more....

The oil there is very thick. Very tar-like. It's very expensive to extract, and it is very expensive to process into usable and exportable products. It is not honey-colored crude like we have in Texas.

The US oil companies were able to refine it. They had refineries in Venezuela and one in the US that could process it.

Venezuela ended its leases and refining agreements with the US oil companies. Some of the agreements were ended prematurely, some were not. But Trump is using this as the basis for THIS IS OUR OIL AND OUR LAND BS. (The US has ended business agreements with foreign companies in the US. Other countries have the same right.)

Anyway, back to the oil...

Venezuela took back the oil processing, and it didn't go well. Remember, this is very thick sludge that requires a lot of refining. It's very hard on the refineries. And... it just so happens that the US produces the refinery parts needed to fix the refineries. Those companies would not sell the needed parts to Venezuela.

As the refineries shut down and/or reduced capacity, it immediately sent their economy into a meltdown.

So Venezuela cut a deal with China-based oil companies. They would take over the refining. Long story short, it hasn't gone well. Turning that thick tar into sweet crude is difficult.

Meanwhile, I can't remember the reason, but the one refinery in the US that can process V's oil is no longer working/or set up to do that.


So IMO, here is the problem. Trump just said he is turning over V's oil production and processing to US oil companies. That's going to mean a complete rebuild of V's oil infrastructure. Which is needed, but at what cost? It's not like this will be a fair bidding process. Also, this will not do anything to benifit the US consumer. We have enough oil on the market.

Also this will do little to fix the corruption in V's government.

 

[2Fluffy4U]

Actually if you are a student of history, diplomacy is more than a "pretty word" See McArthur's handling of the surrender of Japan or the US handling of Germany post WWII.....we have granted many former 'territories" independence from US rule stopping us from building empires because we were civilized and respected sovereign nation status. That's gone with this administration. Has never been our policy to abuse power for annexation of weaker countries.The biggest exception would be the Native American tribes when we carved out this country and formed it

Well, these examples are IMO fortification for understanding how strong of an Empire the US was post WWII.
I would reckon that thinking that the US was a 'respected sovereign nation' due to being nice and not annexing- is a miss- but in actuallity it is due to dropping two atom bombs and obliterating the Nazi army forces.
My bottom line point is - the world works very similiarly to Maslow's Pyramide..
Resources are the base for everything. 'Meaning and Values' are at the top.
The complex dynamic between nations that struggle for resources vs those that do not is what we are seeing playing at hand here in my mind.

 

[riverman]

Yes I do. This is a good example for information being portrayed 'half baked'.
Read this article via google translate:

העימות בין ישראל ל"רופאים ללא גבולות" אחרי שנאסרה פעילותו בעזה: "בארגון יש מחבלים"

ישראל דורשת מארגונים בינלאומיים הפועלים ברצועת עזה להשלים את הליך הרישום שלהם, אחרי שהתברר כי בגופים יש עובדים שמעורבים בטרור. רישיון הפעילות של ארגון "רופאים ללא גבולות" נשלל, והוא מסר שהוא ממתין לחידוש. במתפ״ש טוענים שהארגון סירב למסור את רשימת העובדים, ופרסם שקרים על פעילותו ברצועה: "לא צירוף...

www.ynet.co.il

"Israel is demanding that international organizations operating in the Gaza Strip complete their registration process, after it emerged that the organizations have employees involved in terrorism. The operating license of the organization "Doctors Without Borders" was revoked, and it said it was waiting for its renewal. The IDF claims that the organization refused to provide a list of employees, and published lies about its activities in the Gaza Strip: "It is no coincidence that it refused to cooperate"

So sure, they can say they are not allowed in (and most will defenitly choose to not believe anything the comes from Israeli media/IDF). But I can justify not wanting foul play by those organisations.
I would allow American Media outlet or any outlet the passed this licensing procedure in easily, but I would very much oppose Al Jazeera to enter.
It is Justifiable IMO. But I understand it sounds harsh..

This to me sounds suspiciously like IDF propaganda at work. Doctors without borders named their organization without borders for a reason...Israel is clearly wanting to establish borders. I'm sure there are people working with humanitarian organizations that have bias against Israeli policy but that is a needle in the haystack more than a political norm. This is what happens when a miliary targets a civilian population and the doctors that protect them become politicized because they sew up someone who is wounded from the opposition. I don't think Israel has any right to determine what war correspondents can or cannot report on the war there as it's a conflict in their own geopolitical sphere. Nor do they have a right to refuse entrance to medical volunteers for fear one may have Palestinian sympathies.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Iran–Venezuela relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'Iran's petroleum exports hit a new high in early 2023 due to increased shipments to Venezuela and China. Iran had supported Venezuela's oil exports, and its navy established a presence in Panama Canal for the first time ever. The two countries also announced direct flights between Tehran and Caracas starting in August 2023.
Or
A naval base option in 2022, among other listed in link.

Yes, Iran was sending oil to Venezuela. See my above post about the reasons behind that.

You said V was "feeding and funding the Iranian regime." They had no such resources or finances to do that and like you just pointed out, it was Iran that was supporting V.

And yes, Iran was having to send refined petroleum to the country with the largest oil reserves.

 

[riverman]

Well, these examples are IMO fortification for understanding how strong of an Empire the US was post WWII.
I would reckon that thinking that the US was a 'respected sovereign nation' due to being nice and not annexing- is a miss- but in actuallity it is due to dropping two atom bombs and obliterating the Nazi army forces.
My bottom line point is - the world works very similiarly to Maslow's Pyramide..
Resources are the base for everything. 'Meaning and Values' are at the top.
The complex dynamic between nations that struggle for resources vs those that do not is what we are seeing playing at hand here in my mind.

The US is hardly struggling for resources

 

[2Fluffy4U]

The US is hardly struggling for resources

Exactly.
That is why ideation among people are 'top of the pyramide' oriented.
There is poverty in the US, but as a society - people here struggle with student loans, or if they eat at McDonalds or Taco bell.
In Iran or Venezuella the question the people ask themself is not how they can make their lives better, but if they would actually be able to live under these conditions for so long..
Why is Venezuela so poor if they have so much Oil? (And yes, apparently a thick not so friendly oil)..
If you take American capitalist values and democracy and have a society live in this land - should it prosper? But it doesn't. Why is that?
Tyrany and Dictatorship. Methods of ruling and power.
So now we have alligning interests - Help the world by removing a tyrant while gaining power by doing to them what was done to Japan.. (Japan is happy today?)

 

[2Fluffy4U]

This to me sounds suspiciously like IDF propaganda at work. Doctors without borders named their organization without borders for a reason...Israel is clearly wanting to establish borders. I'm sure there are people working with humanitarian organizations that have bias against Israeli policy but that is a needle in the haystack more than a political norm. This is what happens when a miliary targets a civilian population and the doctors that protect them become politicized because they sew up someone who is wounded from the opposition. I don't think Israel has any right to determine what war correspondents can or cannot report on the war there as it's a conflict in their own geopolitical sphere. Nor do they have a right to refuse entrance to medical volunteers for fear one may have Palestinian sympathies.

Another philpsophical question - why is it legitimate to name yourself 'without borders' and subsequently recieve immediate legitimacy to go wherever you like? Just think of how Mossad / CIA / FSB etc would feast upon such organisations..
My point is - Nations, Peoples, Societies can have borders and can decide who and what and when it can be crossed. Doctors without borders should mean they are willing to travel all over the world and provide service. It doesnt mean they can cross and enter wherever they want.
While they are not allowed (yet, they can provide requested info and get clearance), other NGOs are allowed and aid is being entered. So this is all another succesful attempt to smear Israel in the eyes of the world.

 

[2Fluffy4U]

Yes, Iran was sending oil to Venezuela. See my above post about the reasons behind that.

You said V was "feeding and funding the Iranian regime." They had no such resources or finances to do that and like you just pointed out, it was Iran that was supporting V.

And yes, Iran was having to send refined petroleum to the country with the largest oil reserves.

Agree.
So what was Iran getting in return? (You are correct I was wrong stating funding iran).
But this means Iran was either 'freely' giving away resources?
So would it be safe to assume there was a barter of things? Do we know what it is/was?