Vince Carter's salary

[MaxaMillion711]

To any Nets fan who watched the first 60 games, Vince was trying. He was just playing on a bum ankle/new offense/chemistry problems/off year....he missed a lot of shots and wasnt as good.even I can admit that. he didnt deliver the 1st half of the season. but he was trying. his heart was there. people should not question vinces effort anymore...since he came to Jersey, he has been stellar attitude wise.

since Kidd got traded, Vince has lived up the contract. its not fault of his that the team didnt make the playoffs. he did his job...on and off the court. kinda like tmac last year in the playoffs? it was clear that tmac came to play but his team didnt live up.

ian eagle talked about why vince is playing better. jim spanarkel mentioned how it was tough for vince to step on kidd's toes and demand the offense run through him and start talking to young guys. it was just confusing this year with kidd and its not an excuse...its a FACTOR. many factors contributed to how vince performed in the 1st half of the season. that was one of them.

but im very optimistic about vince. he has proven he can still score 25+ easily and do it on a bum ankle. imagine a rested/healthy Vince with harris and new draft pick. im excited.

 

[killa kadafi191]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know why it is assumed that people who don't like Carter's contract think Kidd was some kind of great leader.

When I called out Kidd over the summer for playing on the stupid Pan American Games team, everyone on here jumped on me like I was insulting their God.

He was a selfish prick that could care less about the Nets or their fans.

And I think Carter's contract is terrible because it killed any small amount of trade value he had and there were no other teams interested in signing him.

I bet Kiki curses under his breath at Thorn every day for signing Carter to that albatross of a deal. All it does is make his job harder.</div>



Exactly. People who try to use stats to prove that VC contract is justified as cp said Zach Randolph put up similar numbers when he was a member of Blazers.

wins>pretty stats.

VC trade value is low. Every other GM are laughing at Rod Thorn for giving up that much money. Well maybe not the Knicks.

Vc doesn't bring what Garnett brings to a team. That is another reason I feel Carter can not be here with a young team as the Nets. He will be looked at as the leader and he doesn't have it in him to lead. He will laugh and joke after getting blown out at home by 30.

He is too comfortable with losing.

 

[dino33]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (killa kadafi191 @ Apr 14 2008, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know why it is assumed that people who don't like Carter's contract think Kidd was some kind of great leader.

When I called out Kidd over the summer for playing on the stupid Pan American Games team, everyone on here jumped on me like I was insulting their God.

He was a selfish prick that could care less about the Nets or their fans.

And I think Carter's contract is terrible because it killed any small amount of trade value he had and there were no other teams interested in signing him.

I bet Kiki curses under his breath at Thorn every day for signing Carter to that albatross of a deal. All it does is make his job harder.</div>



Exactly. People who try to use stats to prove that VC contract is justified as cp said Zach Randolph put up similar numbers when he was a member of Blazers.

wins>pretty stats.

VC trade value is low. Every other GM are laughing at Rod Thorn for giving up that much money. Well maybe not the Knicks.

Vc doesn't bring what Garnett brings to a team. That is another reason I feel Carter can not be here with a young team as the Nets. He will be looked at as the leader and he doesn't have it in him to lead. He will laugh and joke after getting blown out at home by 30.

He is too comfortable with losing.
</div>

So you know the other GMs in the league?

Who said Carter is better than Garnett? Thorn didnt sign Carter to be a Garnett.


Let me remind you guys. The topic is "Is Vince worth his 13Mil"

I dont understand how he isnt worth it. Look at this:


2007-2008 NBA Salaries
Based on the rosters for 2/22/08

Finley, Marbury, O'neal, BENWALLACE, Francis, Odom

They earn more than Carter. Carter's play on the court is worth 13mil. Im not saying he plays to his full potential, god knows sometimes he tries harder sometimes he doesnt, but that doesnt make him overpaid. IF he was paid something like 17mil, I would say he is overpaid, but for this year. NOWAY is he overpaid.


1. Kevin Garnett (Bos) ......... $23,750,000
2. Shaquille O'Neal (Pho) ...... $20,000,000
3. Jason Kidd (Dal) ............ $19,728,000
4. Jermaine O'Neal (Ind) ....... $19,728,000
5. Kobe Bryant (LAL) ........... $19,490,625
6. Tim Duncan (SA) ............. $19,014,188
7. Tracy McGrady (Hou) ......... $19,014,187
8. Allen Iverson (Den) ......... $19,012,500
9. Stephon Marbury (NY) ........ $19,012,500
10. Chris Webber (Phi) .......... $19,000,000 [released 1/11/07]
11. Michael Finley (Dal) ........ $18,593,750 [released 8/15/05]
12. Baron Davis (GS) ............ $16,440,000
13. Shawn Marion (Mia) .......... $16,440,000
14. Antawn Jamison (Was) ........ $16,360,094
15. Dirk Nowitzki (Dal) ......... $16,360,094
16. Paul Pierce (Bos) ........... $16,360,094
17. Ray Allen (Bos) ............. $16,000,000
18. Ben Wallace (Cle) ........... $15,500,000
19. Elton Brand (LAC) ........... $15,344,000
20. Steve Francis (Por) ......... $15,070,000 [released 7/11/07]
21. Rashard Lewis (Orl) ......... $14,880,000
22. Michael Redd (Mil) .......... $14,520,000
23. Yao Ming (Hou) .............. $13,762,775
24. Amare Stoudemire (Pho) ...... $13,762,775
25. Pau Gasol (LAL) ............. $13,735,000
26. Andrei Kirilenko (Uta) ...... $13,735,000
27. Mike Bibby (Atl) ............ $13,500,000
28. Joe Johnson (Atl) ........... $13,488,377
29. Zach Randolph (NY) .......... $13,333,333
30. Lamar Odom (LAL) ............ $13,248,596
31. Vince Carter (NJ) ........... $13,320,000

 

[Netted]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 14 2008, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>the complaints about his contract seem to generally center around the argument that it is too long--by the end of the deal he will be vastly overpaid, and that the Nets should have signed him to a three-year deal at around the same first-year salary.</div>
This is my issue as well. The thing escalates too damn much. Will be a similar situation to Kidd where his salary will be way more than his skills are due to age.

 

[jirohkanzaki]

kidd, vc and rj are all overpaid...but vc's contract (like dumpy said) is bad because of its length while jkidd's because of his age and rj's because of his skills...

nets need to trade vc and rj and prepare for the coming of the king...

 

[ghoti]

The Nets' goal is to rebuild the team and win a championship.

Everything about Carter's contract is incongruent with that goal.

Thorn foolishly still believed the Nets were a contending team when he offered that money and now he looks like a senile old fool.

Vince might be a nice final piece for a team close to winning. Put him on the Jazz or the Hornets and look out! That's his value in the league right now.

Even in his prime it was questionable at best whether he was good enough and tough enough to be the centerpiece of a championship team. Now with his age and health that's not even questionable. He's a complimentary player.

The Nets have no use for that. Where the hell are they going to get two superstars for him to compliment over the life of his contract? The 10th pick of this below average draft? Is this going to yield a player that combined with Vince Carter will wipe out the Celtics and the Spurs?

This contract is crippling. They will never get a Kidd-like offer for him. When they finally do trade him, it will be for pennies on the dollar (sound familiar?). That's Thorn's fault for either being spineless (kowtowing to Ratner, who knows NOTHING about the NBA) or just stupid.

 

[shankyoass]

Ok, back to Carter's salary now...lol

I think he deserves somewhere around 12 million a year, maxing out at 14ish. Anymore and he is slightly overpaid.

Now, a few years ago he could have gone for more IMO, but at the point of his career that he is now, he doesn't deserve superstar money, as he hasn't done anything to deserve superstar status anymore. Now, if next year he puts up 25/6/6, shoots a decent percentage and plays consistently throughout the season, maybe get the Nets to .500 and possibly into the playoffs and make some noise (not even win a series, just keep it close, maybe take it to 6 games and show his abilities), then I think his current contract will be worth it.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Base @ Apr 14 2008, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, back to Carter's salary now...lol

I think he deserves somewhere around 12 million a year, maxing out at 14ish. Anymore and he is slightly overpaid.

Now, a few years ago he could have gone for more IMO, but at the point of his career that he is now, he doesn't deserve superstar money, as he hasn't done anything to deserve superstar status anymore. Now, if next year he puts up 25/6/6, shoots a decent percentage and plays consistently throughout the season, maybe get the Nets to .500 and possibly into the playoffs and make some noise (not even win a series, just keep it close, maybe take it to 6 games and show his abilities), then I think his current contract will be worth it.</div>

So you don't care if the Nets win a championship.

 

[J-HoAgZ]

His salary is fine with me if he keeps producing big numbers. What I'm concerned about is his athleticism. I really don't want him coming back next year off of an ankle surgery and shooting deep 3's. Right now, he's 200 dunks behind the leader.

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/dunk-o-meter

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dino33 @ Apr 14 2008, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So you know the other GMs in the league?

Who said Carter is better than Garnett? Thorn didnt sign Carter to be a Garnett.


Let me remind you guys. The topic is "Is Vince worth his 13Mil"

I dont understand how he isnt worth it.</div>

I don't see how anyone on this team can be worth 13 mil when they aren't going to make the playoffs in the East. Ben Wallace doesn't make Vince a bargain.
The Nets are rebuilding. They are not going to be championship contenders next year. As long as Carter is here with his current contract, it's going to keep the Nets from building a better team. So what does his 25 ppg average exactly accomplish?
When the team that I root for signs a player to that much money, he needs to be "a Kobe" or "a Garnett." If you want to make that much money and never win any ball games, go play for the Knicks. If you really deserve to make all that money, prove it. Win a freaking game.

 

[shankyoass]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Base @ Apr 14 2008, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, back to Carter's salary now...lol

I think he deserves somewhere around 12 million a year, maxing out at 14ish. Anymore and he is slightly overpaid.

Now, a few years ago he could have gone for more IMO, but at the point of his career that he is now, he doesn't deserve superstar money, as he hasn't done anything to deserve superstar status anymore. Now, if next year he puts up 25/6/6, shoots a decent percentage and plays consistently throughout the season, maybe get the Nets to .500 and possibly into the playoffs and make some noise (not even win a series, just keep it close, maybe take it to 6 games and show his abilities), then I think his current contract will be worth it.</div>

So you don't care if the Nets win a championship.
</div>

No I don't. Realistically, I don't even see the Nets as having any chance of winning a title in the next few years. Besides, if you gauge salaries based on championships, then 12-15 players in this league are paid correctly, and the rest are all overpaid.

 

[logik15]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Apr 14 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dino33 @ Apr 14 2008, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So you know the other GMs in the league?

Who said Carter is better than Garnett? Thorn didnt sign Carter to be a Garnett.


Let me remind you guys. The topic is "Is Vince worth his 13Mil"

I dont understand how he isnt worth it.</div>

I don't see how anyone on this team can be worth 13 mil when they aren't going to make the playoffs in the East. Ben Wallace doesn't make Vince a bargain.
The Nets are rebuilding. They are not going to be championship contenders next year. As long as Carter is here with his current contract, it's going to keep the Nets from building a better team. So what does his 25 ppg average exactly accomplish?
When the team that I root for signs a player to that much money, he needs to be "a Kobe" or "a Garnett." If you want to make that much money and never win any ball games, go play for the Knicks. If you really deserve to make all that money, prove it. Win a freaking game.
</div>

So your saying if any team in the east has someone signed with more than 13 mil and don't make the playoffs then they are considered overpaid? Maybe its just not vince's fault why we didn't make the playoffs or in the future make the playoffs. 25 ppg average with 6 assists show that he can draw double teams and create for our other players, which is a start for any team. What exactly does the rest of our team accomplish? Why are you blaming it on vince that we can't win games. Its the makeup of our whole team in general. If kobe did NOT have gasol and odom and bynum complimenting him.... they'd be in the same position as us. Thats what I said would be the difference. The time when we sign a dominant big and compliment around harris, carter, and lets say maybe brand will we know the true value of vince.

 

[zєяσ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (logik15 @ Apr 14 2008, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Apr 14 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dino33 @ Apr 14 2008, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So you know the other GMs in the league?

Who said Carter is better than Garnett? Thorn didnt sign Carter to be a Garnett.


Let me remind you guys. The topic is "Is Vince worth his 13Mil"

I dont understand how he isnt worth it.</div>

I don't see how anyone on this team can be worth 13 mil when they aren't going to make the playoffs in the East. Ben Wallace doesn't make Vince a bargain.
The Nets are rebuilding. They are not going to be championship contenders next year. As long as Carter is here with his current contract, it's going to keep the Nets from building a better team. So what does his 25 ppg average exactly accomplish?
When the team that I root for signs a player to that much money, he needs to be "a Kobe" or "a Garnett." If you want to make that much money and never win any ball games, go play for the Knicks. If you really deserve to make all that money, prove it. Win a freaking game.
</div>

So your saying if any team in the east has someone signed with more than 13 mil and don't make the playoffs then they are considered overpaid? Maybe its just not vince's fault why we didn't make the playoffs or in the future make the playoffs. 25 ppg average with 6 assists show that he can draw double teams and create for our other players, which is a start for any team. What exactly does the rest of our team accomplish? Why are you blaming it on vince that we can't win games. Its the makeup of our whole team in general. If kobe did NOT have gasol and odom and bynum complimenting him.... they'd be in the same position as us. Thats what I said would be the difference. The time when we sign a dominant big and compliment around harris, carter, and lets say maybe brand will we know the true value of vince.
</div>
Dont put words into his mouth. He said no one on this team is worth 13 mil since they arent going to the playoffs. He used Ben Wallace as an example because the team he is on is overpaying him. He isnt the player that will put them over the top, and as long as he is there with his huge contract, constructing a good team will be very difficult. As stated before, as long as we have Carter's contract we are stuck in mediocrity. Who cares if he averages 20/5/5? Honestly, if he and the contract are not making the team win, then why the hell pay him 13 mil at all? Carter is singled out mostly because of that fact.

 

[logik15]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Apr 14 2008, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (logik15 @ Apr 14 2008, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Apr 14 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dino33 @ Apr 14 2008, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So you know the other GMs in the league?

Who said Carter is better than Garnett? Thorn didnt sign Carter to be a Garnett.


Let me remind you guys. The topic is "Is Vince worth his 13Mil"

I dont understand how he isnt worth it.</div>

I don't see how anyone on this team can be worth 13 mil when they aren't going to make the playoffs in the East. Ben Wallace doesn't make Vince a bargain.
The Nets are rebuilding. They are not going to be championship contenders next year. As long as Carter is here with his current contract, it's going to keep the Nets from building a better team. So what does his 25 ppg average exactly accomplish?
When the team that I root for signs a player to that much money, he needs to be "a Kobe" or "a Garnett." If you want to make that much money and never win any ball games, go play for the Knicks. If you really deserve to make all that money, prove it. Win a freaking game.
</div>

So your saying if any team in the east has someone signed with more than 13 mil and don't make the playoffs then they are considered overpaid? Maybe its just not vince's fault why we didn't make the playoffs or in the future make the playoffs. 25 ppg average with 6 assists show that he can draw double teams and create for our other players, which is a start for any team. What exactly does the rest of our team accomplish? Why are you blaming it on vince that we can't win games. Its the makeup of our whole team in general. If kobe did NOT have gasol and odom and bynum complimenting him.... they'd be in the same position as us. Thats what I said would be the difference. The time when we sign a dominant big and compliment around harris, carter, and lets say maybe brand will we know the true value of vince.
</div>
Dont put words into his mouth. He said no one on this team is worth 13 mil since they arent going to the playoffs. He used Ben Wallace as an example because the team he is on is overpaying him. He isnt the player that will put them over the top, and as long as he is there with his huge contract, constructing a good team will be very difficult. As stated before, as long as we have Carter's contract we are stuck in mediocrity. Who cares if he averages 20/5/5? Honestly, if he and the contract are not making the team win, then why the hell pay him 13 mil at all? Carter is singled out mostly because of that fact.
</div>


First of all, answer this question, what makes you think its Carter's fault that we arent winning or not in the playoffs? At the end we can obviously tell he was desperately trying to get us in the playoffs with his improved play. But where was RJ? He was even moreso inconsistant than vince was the last 10-15 games so I say RJ is the more overpaid one. Also you acquire players believing they can make the team better, a 5 pt drop due to the bum ankle and playing through it sounds reasonable enough to me. Thorn obviously believed that Vince is a piece that can help us win a championship. To me its just not only vince that is keeping us from winning, its everyone. Lets say for example if vince was in paul pierce's situation and was playing around KG and allen. I believe that team would be just as good as they are now with pierce. And im not putting words in anyone's mouth... i asked that as a question to be seeing if thats what he meant because he said it like it was what he believed was true. Also Joe johnson is being paid as much as vince and they were a below average team last year, but then what happened? They signed bibby and horford and he is complimented with players that are consistant. As i said time and time again... its not just vince's fault its pur whole team in general. And he is not overpaid with his production, its a matter of getting the right pieces.

 

[Charles]

I'm not saying in any way shape or form that RJ, Boone, Nenad and Marcus get a pass b/c it's all on Vince. Everyone is to blame. Everyone needs to get better. But you need to look at Carter first b/c he is the superstar, he is the go to guy, he is the all-star, he is the leader, etc etc. The Nets are paying Carter a lot more than the other guys. Shouldn't he be the one everyone looks to to get the job done?

 

[pinetar]

Hey, if you really want to save money, have zero players on your roster making zero dollars each. Such a deal!

And I'm impressed by this management philosophy of not adding any good (i.e. expensive) players to your roster until you're ready to win a championship. Good luck with that one!

Some of you seem to think the formula for winning championships is to get rid of all your good players and just accumulate lottery picks for as many years as it takes. I doubt anyone who says this was a Net fan before the Jason Kidd era. Do you think the Coleman/Anderson team was worth the wait? How about the Van Horn/Cassell team?

If only a championship is acceptable, 96% percent of the league is a total failure every year. So therefore the best players of 29 teams are garbage?

Just about every great player in the league has been on losing teams: Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Dwyane Wade, etc. It's stupid to hold the team's best player accountable for that. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out that basketball is a team game.

Carter is a flawed player, and he's not going to single handedly bring the team a championship. But such a player does not exist, or at best is extremely rare.

If you can tolerate nothing less than a championship, then do us all a favor and go be a bandwagon fan. Root for the Celtics or the Lakers or whoever this year. Leave this forum for us Nets fans, fans who understand that wins are not guaranteed and that team success is something to be appreciated.

 

[Joey FistPump]

RJ makes 12.2 this season, 13.2 next season and 14.2 the season after that.

Vince Makes 13.5 this season, 14.8 next season, 16.2 the following season and 17.5 the following season...

Vince is 31 years old, RJ is 28...the person most likely to decline over the next 3 years...yeah Vince.

 

[logik15]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pinetar @ Apr 14 2008, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey, if you really want to save money, have zero players on your roster making zero dollars each. Such a deal!

And I'm impressed by this management philosophy of not adding any good (i.e. expensive) players to your roster until you're ready to win a championship. Good luck with that one!

Some of you seem to think the formula for winning championships is to get rid of all your good players and just accumulate lottery picks for as many years as it takes. I doubt anyone who says this was a Net fan before the Jason Kidd era. Do you think the Coleman/Anderson team was worth the wait? How about the Van Horn/Cassell team?

If only a championship is acceptable, 96% percent of the league is a total failure every year. So therefore the best players of 29 teams are garbage?

Just about every great player in the league has been on losing teams: Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Dwyane Wade, etc. It's stupid to hold the team's best player accountable for that. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out that basketball is a team game.

Carter is a flawed player, and he's not going to single handedly bring the team a championship. But such a player does not exist, or at best is extremely rare.

If you can tolerate nothing less than a championship, then do us all a favor and go be a bandwagon fan. Root for the Celtics or the Lakers or whoever this year. Leave this forum for us Nets fans, fans who understand that wins are not guaranteed and that team success is something to be appreciated.</div>


well said.

 

[logik15]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Joey FistPump @ Apr 14 2008, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>RJ makes 12.2 this season, 13.2 next season and 14.2 the season after that.

Vince Makes 13.5 this season, 14.8 next season, 16.2 the following season and 17.5 the following season...

Vince is 31 years old, RJ is 28...the person most likely to decline over the next 3 years...yeah Vince.</div>


I agree with that logic, but Vince declining imo can still do more than RJ in his prime.

 

[zєяσ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (logik15 @ Apr 14 2008, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Apr 14 2008, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (logik15 @ Apr 14 2008, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Apr 14 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dino33 @ Apr 14 2008, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So you know the other GMs in the league?

Who said Carter is better than Garnett? Thorn didnt sign Carter to be a Garnett.


Let me remind you guys. The topic is "Is Vince worth his 13Mil"

I dont understand how he isnt worth it.</div>

I don't see how anyone on this team can be worth 13 mil when they aren't going to make the playoffs in the East. Ben Wallace doesn't make Vince a bargain.
The Nets are rebuilding. They are not going to be championship contenders next year. As long as Carter is here with his current contract, it's going to keep the Nets from building a better team. So what does his 25 ppg average exactly accomplish?
When the team that I root for signs a player to that much money, he needs to be "a Kobe" or "a Garnett." If you want to make that much money and never win any ball games, go play for the Knicks. If you really deserve to make all that money, prove it. Win a freaking game.
</div>

So your saying if any team in the east has someone signed with more than 13 mil and don't make the playoffs then they are considered overpaid? Maybe its just not vince's fault why we didn't make the playoffs or in the future make the playoffs. 25 ppg average with 6 assists show that he can draw double teams and create for our other players, which is a start for any team. What exactly does the rest of our team accomplish? Why are you blaming it on vince that we can't win games. Its the makeup of our whole team in general. If kobe did NOT have gasol and odom and bynum complimenting him.... they'd be in the same position as us. Thats what I said would be the difference. The time when we sign a dominant big and compliment around harris, carter, and lets say maybe brand will we know the true value of vince.
</div>
Dont put words into his mouth. He said no one on this team is worth 13 mil since they arent going to the playoffs. He used Ben Wallace as an example because the team he is on is overpaying him. He isnt the player that will put them over the top, and as long as he is there with his huge contract, constructing a good team will be very difficult. As stated before, as long as we have Carter's contract we are stuck in mediocrity. Who cares if he averages 20/5/5? Honestly, if he and the contract are not making the team win, then why the hell pay him 13 mil at all? Carter is singled out mostly because of that fact.
</div>


First of all, answer this question, what makes you think its Carter's fault that we arent winning or not in the playoffs? At the end we can obviously tell he was desperately trying to get us in the playoffs with his improved play. But where was RJ? He was even moreso inconsistant than vince was the last 10-15 games so I say RJ is the more overpaid one. Also you acquire players believing they can make the team better, a 5 pt drop due to the bum ankle and playing through it sounds reasonable enough to me. Thorn obviously believed that Vince is a piece that can help us win a championship. To me its just not only vince that is keeping us from winning, its everyone. Lets say for example if vince was in paul pierce's situation and was playing around KG and allen. I believe that team would be just as good as they are now with pierce. And im not putting words in anyone's mouth... i asked that as a question to be seeing if thats what he meant because he said it like it was what he believed was true. Also Joe johnson is being paid as much as vince and they were a below average team last year, but then what happened? They signed bibby and horford and he is complimented with players that are consistant. As i said time and time again... its not just vince's fault its pur whole team in general. And he is not overpaid with his production, its a matter of getting the right pieces.
</div>
Where did I ever say it was entirely Carter's fault that we never advanced further in the playoffs? Where did I ever say it is entirely Carter's fault that we didnt make it this year. I'm saying that it is management's fault for signing him to a big contract and never constructing a balanced and competitive team after Kmart left. And as far as I'm concerned, yes, RJ is overpaid yet he is neither the one the team needs to look upon to lead nor is he the one this thread is concerned about. Management foolishly signed a star just past his prime to the biggest contract he has landed, and expected him to score and lead. He has only done that for twenty or so games, with the bum ankle still bothering him.
As for the Hawks/Johnson example-take note that they were in rebuilding stages and Johnson's value was on the rise. They saw him as a potential great player. Carter has already reached his potential and is slowly declining from it. In addition, at the time the Nets were really only bidding against themselves. The only other option for Carter at the time was Orlando. The Hawks again: they obtained Bibby and Horford, yes, but are they contenders? No. Were they stuck in middle like the Nets have been in previous years? No. And again, Carter's contract makes obtaining those pieces very difficult.
Do I think just blowing up everything would make things ok? Of course not, but the Nets management spent that much money unwisely imo. It's nothing against Vince, but the team comes first.

 

[Charles]

Right now I see the Nets building around Devin Harris, Josh Boone, their two first round picks, and possibly SWAT, Krstic, Diop, Marcus, maybe even Ager. All YOUNG players. Carter doesn't really fit in that mold.
I'm not advocating tossing him to the street and having four players on the court at a time. I'm not saying trade him for Stephon Marbury. I just don't understand how he fits in w/ this team and what Kiki and Thorn are doing. I realize he scores a ton of points for this team, and that before he joined the franchise they were constantly struggling to score points. But what is he adding to the team right now if they are rebuilding?

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pinetar @ Apr 14 2008, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If you can tolerate nothing less than a championship, then do us all a favor and go be a bandwagon fan. Root for the Celtics or the Lakers or whoever this year. Leave this forum for us Nets fans, fans who understand that wins are not guaranteed and that team success is something to be appreciated.</div>

There is a difference between what you call tolerating nothing less than a championship and wanting to see the front office make good attempts to build a championship team.

The Nets have been off track for the latter for a few seasons.

 

[logik15]

[/quote]
Where did I ever say it was entirely Carter's fault that we never advanced further in the playoffs? Where did I ever say it is entirely Carter's fault that we didnt make it this year. I'm saying that it is management's fault for signing him to a big contract and never constructing a balanced and competitive team after Kmart left. And as far as I'm concerned, yes, RJ is overpaid yet he is neither the one the team needs to look upon to lead nor is he the one this thread is concerned about. Management foolishly signed a star just past his prime to the biggest contract he has landed, and expected him to score and lead. He has only done that for twenty or so games, with the bum ankle still bothering him.
As for the Hawks/Johnson example-take note that they were in rebuilding stages and Johnson's value was on the rise. They saw him as a potential great player. Carter has already reached his potential and is slowly declining from it. In addition, at the time the Nets were really only bidding against themselves. The only other option for Carter at the time was Orlando. The Hawks again: they obtained Bibby and Horford, yes, but are they contenders? No. Were they stuck in middle like the Nets have been in previous years? No. And again, Carter's contract makes obtaining those pieces very difficult.
[/quote]

I didn't direct that at you.. someone earlier posted that it was vince's fault that we couldn't make the playoffs. I agree with you on the Kmart part, but i mean if he can lead the last 20 games or so after kidd ON a bum ankle... do you still believe he's not worth that 13 million? I mean the way Frank coaches, he needs that go to guy in his system or I believe he'd be completely lost. He has that someone in carter and carter has been a great role model the past 20 games for our younger players. Playing through pain, trying hard to get us into the playoffs and in the last post game interview he was obviously upset that we didn't make the playoffs.

We can say carter is declining because of his age... but his stats this year shoudln't really prove that he is declining. He was injured all year pretty much ever since that roadtrip that forced him to sit out the 5 games that we lost. a 4 point drop is a reasonable one at least.... his rebounds and assists are just as well as it was last year. Also his field goal % is the same as it was last year even slightly better(45.4% last year, 45.6% this year) so you can't say he's declining. He's taking about 2 less shots a game. but his assist average has even gone up. Vince also was one of the main reasons our attendance shot up the year he came in, if he wasn't re-signed.... think of our attendance this year. The money we make for the extra tickets that vince sells should also be included into the factor of his salary.

honestly im glad we re-signed carter and glad that no one else wanted too. Of course i believe we coulda given him less money given the situation. But then again, we had no choice at the time given that management still believed in the "big 3". If we didn't re-sign vince at the time... Jkidd woulda just given up even earlier. So we shoudl be blaming Jkidd for giving up on us and for our current situation. If Kidd showed his dissatisfaction earlier, the nets management wouldn't have probably signed vince to as much as they did.

But given the situation, at least vince is the person that gave us HOPE of making the playoffs. Without vince, we would probably be as bad as the knicks right now. Also vince can attract other free agents to play for us. He even said he would be delighted to act as assistant GM. no one wants to come to a team without players that can compete for a championship.

 

[logik15]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Apr 14 2008, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Right now I see the Nets building around Devin Harris, Josh Boone, their two first round picks, and possibly SWAT, Krstic, Diop, Marcus, maybe even Ager. All YOUNG players. Carter doesn't really fit in that mold.
I'm not advocating tossing him to the street and having four players on the court at a time. I'm not saying trade him for Stephon Marbury. I just don't understand how he fits in w/ this team and what Kiki and Thorn are doing. I realize he scores a ton of points for this team, and that before he joined the franchise they were constantly struggling to score points. But what is he adding to the team right now if they are rebuilding?</div>


I see your point of view, but our management still believes with one or two moves we can still compete for a championship. I believe the same in acquiring someone like Brand. With that team you just mentioned, all young players, there is NO way we can even come close to winning a championship with that team. All we would have is a bunch of unproven players, besides harris. Frank is also a coach that plays proven players, surrounding him with a bunch of rookies, sophomores is not a smart idea. Harris is someone who wants to win, if we put that team around him... trust me i wouldn't be surprised if he demanded a trade himself.

 

[Charles]

The Knicks have a real good shot at their choice or Rose, Beasley or anyone else that enters the draft. The Nets have a 1% shot at that. Which one would you choose? Miss the playoffs and get a top five pick or miss the playoffs and get the tenth or eleventh pick?

 

[logik15]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Apr 14 2008, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Knicks have a real good shot at their choice or Rose, Beasley or anyone else that enters the draft. The Nets have a 1% shot at that. Which one would you choose? Miss the playoffs and get a top five pick or miss the playoffs and get the tenth or eleventh pick?</div>

Well our aim from the start of the season was to make the playoffs. We can all say that we didn't see us not making the playoffs. But who knows, I know i'd still much rather be in our situation than the knicks situation. I know i also would rather have watched the nets play all year than the knicks. At least the last couple of games we had a reason to watch the nets play. To see if they can make the playoffs. whereas the knicks... its like who cares they're not playing for anything anymore.

Do you think Rose and beasley are the answers to their problems? Sure, its a start in the right direction but I don't believe that its the only thing they need to become a contender. How many #1 picks would u need to actually become a contender. A good example is Atlanta, they've had high picks the last couple of years and they still can't do much with it.

It'd be nice to have a #1 pick, but I don't think we are in that tough of a situation to start doing worse than the knicks. My philosophy is that every team needs a proven big man and that should be our main target... not the draft. Get Brand and draft CDR and i'd call it the best offseason in years.

 

[Cmoney707]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Apr 14 2008, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Knicks have a real good shot at their choice or Rose, Beasley or anyone else that enters the draft. The Nets have a 1% shot at that. Which one would you choose? Miss the playoffs and get a top five pick or miss the playoffs and get the tenth or eleventh pick?</div>

The knicks have been in the lottery for what the past 7 years. When their franchise started to lose they got used to it and losing became their mentality. I would rather make the playoffs as a seventh seed then go through a season like the knicks.

Think about it, the only reason the Nets are still at Izod is because they can stay afloat by selling tickets. No one would come to see the Nets lose. People still go see the Knicks lose. But over the past 7 seasons the Nets have been winners. This team would've been in Brooklyn already if the Nets were like the Knicks. Some people may want that, but I'd much rather see them move to the Rock.

This team had a shot of making the playoffs 2 weeks ago, but you wanted them to just tank the season right away to get a top 2 pick? I don't understand the logic.

 

[jirohkanzaki]

so wade isn't worth $13m because they have the worst record in the nba?

 

[Petey]

He's overpaid.

Yes he puts up stats. Yes he sells tickets. But look at who was after him at the deadline last year. Look at the teams willing to throw money at him this offseason. There is a side that these team owners and other GMs know that maybe isn't so apparent to us?

The Nets overpaid in signing him, as they went above market rate.

-Petey

 

[zєяσ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (logik15 @ Apr 14 2008, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Apr 14 2008, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Right now I see the Nets building around Devin Harris, Josh Boone, their two first round picks, and possibly SWAT, Krstic, Diop, Marcus, maybe even Ager. All YOUNG players. Carter doesn't really fit in that mold.
I'm not advocating tossing him to the street and having four players on the court at a time. I'm not saying trade him for Stephon Marbury. I just don't understand how he fits in w/ this team and what Kiki and Thorn are doing. I realize he scores a ton of points for this team, and that before he joined the franchise they were constantly struggling to score points. But what is he adding to the team right now if they are rebuilding?</div>


I see your point of view, but our management still believes with one or two moves we can still compete for a championship. I believe the same in acquiring someone like Brand. With that team you just mentioned, all young players, there is NO way we can even come close to winning a championship with that team. All we would have is a bunch of unproven players, besides harris. Frank is also a coach that plays proven players, surrounding him with a bunch of rookies, sophomores is not a smart idea. Harris is someone who wants to win, if we put that team around him... trust me i wouldn't be surprised if he demanded a trade himself.
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I see what you mean but obtaining such players in order to make a good team will be impossible with the position the Nets organization have put themselves in. Acquiring someone like Brand will mean the team would have to give up a lot. Adding someone like Brand to the current team would probably make them contenders but the issue is that it is impossible to acquire such a player without giving up much. Once you acquire this player, the team is left with other big holes to fill. Honestly, they should began rebuilding once Kmart left, because back then they had much more flexibility. And when Carter was ready for a new contract, management stupidly believed that the Big 3 could work. Who in their right mind thinks a team with mediocre perimeter shooting, no interior presence, mediocre defense, a young inexperienced coach, little depth, an allstar, a point guard who is great at everything but defense and shooting, and a borderline allstar with deteriorating defense can win? THRON! THAT'S WHO! Management in the past couple of years has been incompetent for the most part. When you have a front office that blindly thinks such a team would contend, the team will actually be stuck in the middle of the pack. not good enough to win, not bad enough for making enough capspace to rebuild.