Want Nate Gone? Read On

[OddEnormous]

I'm sorry OddTroll, but I'll take Mike Krzyzewski's perception of a coach any day over the fast majority of assholes, er I mean opinions

Yes, isn't it brilliant that our 10 year veteran NBA coach is so highly thought of as an assistant by a COLLEGE coach.

Full steam ahead!


Calling someone a troll or an asshole is not an argument. In fact, those kinds of comments usually come into play when one doesn't have an argument.

 

[jlprk]

It wasn't Nelson who had issues with Weber, it was the Warriors horrible rookie owner Chris Cohan who didn't want to pay him.

No, Webber hated Nelson's guts for the dirty disrespectful motivational tricks he pulled on Webber. It took a few years for Webber to make up with him, and I think that was just for show.

 

[STOMP]

No, Webber hated Nelson's guts for the dirty disrespectful motivational tricks he pulled on Webber. It took a few years for Webber to make up with him, and I think that was just for show.

right. It wasn't the owner offering to slight him 10's of millions of dollars, it was Nelson's "dirty disrespectful motivational tricks"...

dude signed for 2M with the Wiz with nothing longterm guaranteed and completed his career going full circle to play for DN and the Warriors again.

What I'm relaying about contracts was reported here in the Bay at the time

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[jlprk]

Remember Webber's gameface wrinkled in hatred? Nelson really did a number on him. It didn't surprise me a few months later when Webber recoiled in disgust at what he was becoming under Nelson's tutelage. Nelson later said he was just using Red Auerbach's methods. Auerbach sure did it better.

I don't doubt you that contract negotiations later added to the worsening relationship. But I think it was over by then anyway.

 

[STOMP]

Remember Webber's gameface wrinkled in hatred? Nelson really did a number on him. It didn't surprise me a few months later when Webber recoiled in disgust at what he was becoming under Nelson's tutelage. Nelson later said he was just using Red Auerbach's methods. Auerbach sure did it better.

I don't doubt you that contract negotiations later added to the worsening relationship. But I think it was over by then anyway.

10's of millions of dollars vs speculation from some guy on what was going through a player's head that time 18 years ago he looked all angry

reports were Chris was pretty upset about being offered a take it or leave it deal at roughly 30M less then other top Bigs were commanding...Cohan was supposed to be pretty heavy handed/involved in that negotiation... he was also reported to have ordered Nelson to tamper CW's minutes down to keep him from achieving the out in his contract. Believe what you want but I'm hanging my hat on the money especially when you're talking those sorts of dollars

Consider how contentious a relationship Cohan had with the stadium, county and pretty much anyone he did business with... dude was at war with everyone especially early on in his time.

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[jlprk]

10's of millions of dollars vs speculation from some guy on what was going through a player's head that time 18 years ago he looked all angry

I'm not speculating. There were many articles about Webber's rebellion against his motivational techniques, later about Nelson's major errors having been losing Webber because of that and trading 3 No. 1s for Shawn Bradley, and a few years later, about Webber making motions to apparently make up. Each set of articles said Webber was mad about the way Nelson had treated him. The only thing not objectified in the media was my seeing Webber's contorted face screwed in anger while playing, which I thought was against the other team, but later suspected was against his coach when I read of Webber's anger.

But I don't doubt that money made it worse.

 

[STOMP]

I'm not speculating. There were many articles about Webber's rebellion against his motivational techniques, later about Nelson's major errors having been losing Webber because of that and trading 3 No. 1s for Shawn Bradley, and a few years later, about Webber making motions to apparently make up. Each set of articles said Webber was mad about the way Nelson had treated him. The only thing not objectified in the media was my seeing Webber's contorted face screwed in anger while playing, which I thought was against the other team, but later suspected was against his coach when I read of Webber's anger.

But I don't doubt that money made it worse.

the money was the main thing, he just couldn't bitch about that publicly and not seem like a greedy ass. Doing so would have curbed his public appeal which is of course tied directly to his ability to justify a franchise player level contract. Once Cohan lowballed him with a take it or walk offer he needed a scapegoat reason (other then money) to burn his Warrior bridges and DN took the fall

If you really read multiple articles at the time, then you'll recall a public riff as Webber's rookie season wound down about his minutes/role being limited to low 30's despite him playing terrific and being the only decent Big on the club. Again, Nelson took most of the the public blame for this especially in the initial articles, but later reports surfaced that DN was doing this by Cohan's direction. Webber was very motivated to achieve the out in his contract and get paid, and felt the organization was working against his efforts to achieve this goal. Why wouldn't the organization want him to win the ROY?

Which guy makes more sense/had motivation to be limiting Webber's minutes/role? The coach who's job it is to win games or the new owner (who coach has to answer to) who had recently overextended himself buying the club? The later speculation fits the pattern of how CC operated during his ownership. He injected himself into the basketball operations time and again, sued seemingly everyone he did business with and exemplified penny wise/dollar stupid with a laundry list of face-spiting decisions. Living in SF most of the Cohan era gave me an appreciation for P. Allen

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2010/07/chris_cohan_warriors_lacob_guber.php

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-cohanwarriors101209

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[jlprk]

Your first link says

The Chris Webber Debacle: The Warriors new owner couldn't have introduced himself to Bay Area fans in any worse a manner than he did in 1995. After he bought the team, he sided with coach Don Nelson in star rookie Webber's "him or me" demand -- and then sent the coach packing shortly thereafter. Worst of all worlds -- like we noted, it's the Warriors specialty. And while the situation is often described as a showdown between a spoiled, cocky rookie and a crusty old coach, your humble narrator has always felt that Cohan's heavy-handed boorishness is what ruined everything. Nelson, a company man, took the bullet for his boss.

So Cohan inherited the situation, which was caused before he became owner. This writer says that most people ("situation is often described") don't think Cohan was the cause, but the writer says he differs with the majority ("your humble narrator has always felt") when he believes that Cohan "ruined everything" and is really the one to blame.

Your second link (from a past year) says

Jackson flipped on Friday night in Los Angeles when Nellie let him stay on the floor to pick up five fouls and a technical inside of 10 minutes. Jax was at wit’s end when he started clinging close to Kobe Bryant(notes). One source on the court says Kobe addressed Jax as “Young Fella,” and for some odd reason that pushed Jackson over the edge. Soon, Jackson was cursing Nellie and storming to the locker room on his way to a two-game preseason suspension.

This portrays Stephen Jackson as practically psychotic during some games, yelling at Nelson. How does this contradict my contention that Nelson uses weird motivational techniques that make a player go psycho. Notice that Jackson's personality changed as soon as he escaped Nelson via trade. Same with Webber.

Then you say

Living in SF most of the Cohan era gave me an appreciation for P. Allen

As a former Sonic fan, I sure agree with you that an impoverished owner group takes all the fun out of being a fan. Blazer fans are spoiled rotten by Allen and don't know how good they have it.

 

[STOMP]

Your first link says



So Cohan inherited the situation, which was caused before he became owner. This writer says that most people ("situation is often described") don't think Cohan was the cause, but the writer says he differs with the majority ("your humble narrator has always felt") when he believes that Cohan "ruined everything" and is really the one to blame.

you're grasping at straws to justify your earlier statements. Cohan was a minority owner prior to grossly overpaying for them and becoming the guy. Of course he somewhat inherited their past with the purchase, but he was part of the ownership team that hired managment and the coaches (including Nelson). As the main owner he drafted Webber. The situation was his and he went on to royally fuck it up while placing the blame on everyone else.

This portrays Stephen Jackson as practically psychotic during some games, yelling at Nelson. How does this contradict my contention that Nelson uses weird motivational techniques that make a player go psycho. Notice that Jackson's personality changed as soon as he escaped Nelson via trade. Same with Webber.

yeah Stephen Jackson is a real class act prior to and post W's

you really don't recall him beating fans in the stands in the Detroit Indy brawl? How about when he discharged his gun outside a strip club in another brawl. He sure has a nice sane tatoo on his stomach. Geez my Pacer fans laughed their cans off when the Warriors traded for him.

answer my question on who had the motivation to create the riff between Webber and the W's by limiting his minutes. Is it the coach who didn't want to play his best player and only decent big man because of some weird motivational techniques he learned from Red Auerbach or the owner who didn't want to pay the going rate?

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[jlprk]

In summary, in Post #32 I disagreed with your statement, "It wasn't Nelson who had issues with Webber." Since I was right, you changed the issue to a more ambiguous, unresolveable one, by basically saying--

Sure, Nelson had issues with Webber, but the bigger cause of Webber leaving was his conflict with owner Cohan, not coach Nelson.

 

[STOMP]

In summary, in Post #32 I disagreed with your statement, "It wasn't Nelson who had issues with Webber." Since I was right, you changed the issue to a more ambiguous, unresolveable one, by basically saying--

Sure, Nelson had issues with Webber, but the bigger cause of Webber leaving was his conflict with owner Cohan, not coach Nelson.

you weren't right though. His issues with Nellie were superfluous compared to his real issue with the organization. Players have similar issues with their coaches all the time and continue being productive... it's when the dollars aren't right that real problems arise.

I've tried reaching you with stuff you weren't aware of long enough and obviously you're closed off to it... no skin off my back

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