Exclusive War with Iran starting this week? (1 Viewer)

[2Fluffy4U]

Right, but that happens because of diplomacy.

Japan and Germany both invaded and tried to overthrow other countries and their governments were wiped out as a result.

Iran has done no such thing. I don't believe the people are going to welcome the US and Israel murdering their families with comparatively miniscule provocation.

If Israel and the US do as much damage to Iran as the allies did to Germany and Japan I don't believe Iran will be so eager to comply.

These are simply different situations. The US is in the wrong. Israel is in the wrong.

Against Germany and Japan the Allies were in the right.

That matters

The 'US and Israel are in the wrong' framing only holds if you ignore reality. Iran wasn't some peaceful country minding its business. They were the primary financier and arms supplier of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis, proxy networks that spent years attacking Israeli civilians and regional shipping. October 7th happend because Iran had their fingerprints all over it.

And let's not forget April 13, 2024. Iran launched what was literally the largest drone attack in history directly at Israel — 170 drones, 30+ cruise missiles, and 120+ ballistic missiles. Around 350 projectiles total, carrying roughly 60 tons of explosives, fired from Iranian soil at a civilian country. Air raid sirens went off in over 720 locations across Israel, including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. That's not a proxy skirmish — that's Iran directly trying to bomb a country into rubble. The only reason the casualties weren't catastrophic was because Israel, the US, UK, France, and Jordan all scrambled to shoot them down. The G7 unanimously condemned it. The UN Secretary-General called it deeply alarming. Even Saudi Arabia and the UAE quietly shared radar intelligence to help defeat the attack. Then Iran did it again in October 2024 — another 200 ballistic missiles, directly from Iranian territory. Two direct state-on-state missile attacks in under six months.

On the nuclear side, 60% enriched uranium with no civilian justification, inspectors blocked, cameras removed, Additional Protocol suspended since 2021.

The Germany/Japan comparison actually cuts the other way too. The reason that model worked was because the military defeat was total and the old regime was gone. Diplomacy with the Nazi government or Imperial Japan before 1945 produced nothing. The peace came *after* the force, not instead of it.

Iran's regime has been offered off-ramps repeatedly: JCPOA, Oman talks, the nuclear fuel offer. They rejected all of them because staying on the edge of nuclear capability is a feature for them, not a bug. A country that fires 350 missiles at its neighbor and is months away from a nuclear weapon isn't a country being provoked into a corner. That's a country that made its choices.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The 'US and Israel are in the wrong' framing only holds if you ignore reality. Iran wasn't some peaceful country minding its business. They were the primary financier and arms supplier of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis, proxy networks that spent years attacking Israeli civilians and regional shipping. October 7th happend because Iran had their fingerprints all over it.

And let's not forget April 13, 2024. Iran launched what was literally the largest drone attack in history directly at Israel — 170 drones, 30+ cruise missiles, and 120+ ballistic missiles. Around 350 projectiles total, carrying roughly 60 tons of explosives, fired from Iranian soil at a civilian country. Air raid sirens went off in over 720 locations across Israel, including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. That's not a proxy skirmish — that's Iran directly trying to bomb a country into rubble. The only reason the casualties weren't catastrophic was because Israel, the US, UK, France, and Jordan all scrambled to shoot them down. The G7 unanimously condemned it. The UN Secretary-General called it deeply alarming. Even Saudi Arabia and the UAE quietly shared radar intelligence to help defeat the attack. Then Iran did it again in October 2024 — another 200 ballistic missiles, directly from Iranian territory. Two direct state-on-state missile attacks in under six months.

On the nuclear side, 60% enriched uranium with no civilian justification, inspectors blocked, cameras removed, Additional Protocol suspended since 2021.

The Germany/Japan comparison actually cuts the other way too. The reason that model worked was because the military defeat was total and the old regime was gone. Diplomacy with the Nazi government or Imperial Japan before 1945 produced nothing. The peace came *after* the force, not instead of it.

Iran's regime has been offered off-ramps repeatedly: JCPOA, Oman talks, the nuclear fuel offer. They rejected all of them because staying on the edge of nuclear capability is a feature for them, not a bug. A country that fires 350 missiles at its neighbor and is months away from a nuclear weapon isn't a country being provoked into a corner. That's a country that made its choices.

None of that is as bad as directly invading with the intention to conquer other nations.

The US and Israel are in the wrong because they should be using diplomatic means.

The US and Israel are 100% wrong. Iranian people know it, and people in the US know it. The world knows it.

Perhaps not as wrong as Russia invading Ukraine, but still wrong.

It doesn't matter how you frame it.

 

[2Fluffy4U]

None of that is as bad as directly invading with the intention to conquer other nations.

The US and Israel are in the wrong because they should be using diplomatic means.

The US and Israel are 100% wrong. Iranian people know it, and people in the US know it. The world knows it.

Perhaps not as wrong as Russia invading Ukraine, but still wrong.

It doesn't matter how you frame it.

You drew the Russia/Ukraine comparison yourself. A sovereign country was attacked, civilians were targeted, diplomacy was ignored — that's why Russia is wrong. Iran fired 350 missiles directly at Israeli cities in April 2024. Financed Hamas for decades. October 7th happened. How much wrong precentage does Iran get for that?

There is no 100% in geopolitics. Countries act on interests, not morality, always have. The US has interests. Israel has interests. Iran has interests. Once you accept that, the "who's wrong" framing stops being useful and the real questions become about consequences and what comes next.

Israel is not 100% righteous, I can agree on that. But it's also not 100% wrong. Saying so doesn't make it true ill, it just means you are not analyzing, but choosing a side due to emotional views you are exposed to (as part of all parties listed above interests).

 

[Phatguysrule]

You drew the Russia/Ukraine comparison yourself. A sovereign country was attacked, civilians were targeted, diplomacy was ignored — that's why Russia is wrong. Iran fired 350 missiles directly at Israeli cities in April 2024. Financed Hamas for decades. October 7th happened. How much wrong precentage does Iran get for that?

There is no 100% in geopolitics. Countries act on interests, not morality, always have. The US has interests. Israel has interests. Iran has interests. Once you accept that, the "who's wrong" framing stops being useful and the real questions become about consequences and what comes next.

Israel is not 100% righteous, I can agree on that. But it's also not 100% wrong. Saying so doesn't make it true ill, it just means you are not analyzing, but choosing a side due to emotional views you are exposed to (as part of all parties listed above interests).

The people know. The people know Russia is wrong. The people know Israel and the US is wrong as well.

They will respond how they respond, regardless of your take on geopolitics.

If they feel they have been wronged then they will resist. And they'll never stop.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

You drew the Russia/Ukraine comparison yourself. A sovereign country was attacked, civilians were targeted, diplomacy was ignored — that's why Russia is wrong. Iran fired 350 missiles directly at Israeli cities in April 2024. Financed Hamas for decades. October 7th happened. How much wrong precentage does Iran get for that?

There is no 100% in geopolitics. Countries act on interests, not morality, always have. The US has interests. Israel has interests. Iran has interests. Once you accept that, the "who's wrong" framing stops being useful and the real questions become about consequences and what comes next.

Israel is not 100% righteous, I can agree on that. But it's also not 100% wrong. Saying so doesn't make it true ill, it just means you are not analyzing, but choosing a side due to emotional views you are exposed to (as part of all parties listed above interests).

Its worse. Doing it under the guise of terrorism? Placing military complexes next to hospitals and schools? It absolutely is worse. At least militaries tend to abide by the rules of war by UN standards. When a government funds terrorist organizations bent on eliminating a race through unconventional warfare, its absolutely worse. Zero respect for innocent life. To dismiss that as not as bad as a military invasion is crazy to me. One is upfront warfare. The other is deceitful.

Put it another way. Id much rather know a military invasion is coming and make preparations as needed, vs live my life in fear of any random person blowing me up.

 

[riverman]

If they feel they have been wronged then they will resist. And they'll never stop.

Ask any Native American about this and they'll argue your point. Alcohol, poverty and displacement played a big part in "stopping" the Native resistance here in America. They did try to take the American govt to court in Europe but accomplished nothing in the homeland after being invaded. Last resistance was probably Wounded Knee in the early 70s...that's over 50 years ago. Ask the Turkish Kurds and they'll say the same. They also lost their homeland.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ask any Native American about this and they'll argue your point. Alcohol, poverty and displacement played a big part in "stopping" the Native resistance here in America.

If we wipe out Iranians the way we wiped out native Americans we are 100% in the wrong.

Anybody advocating for such action is absolutely immoral, IMO.

 

[riverman]

If we wipe out Iranians the way we wiped out native Americans we are 100% in the wrong.

Anybody advocating for such action is absolutely immoral, IMO.

I'm not arguing that war is wrong, I just am arguing your blanket statements about the aftermath of war. I don't believe anyone here is advocating for invading sovereign nations but you can draw your own lines in the sand. Ideologies rarely pan out the way they should when weapons are used to promote them. Iran was wiping out it's own people before this conflict. It's not like this happened in a vacuum. Imagine how "diplomatic" you'd feel if your daughters were blown up at school? That situation will just snowball until both sides lay down their weapons.

 

[2Fluffy4U]

If we wipe out Iranians the way we wiped out native Americans we are 100% in the wrong.

Anybody advocating for such action is absolutely immoral, IMO.

why phrase this way? Iran has 90 Mil in population. After two weeks of war and neumerous bombing - can you look how many Iranian people died (IRGC + Civilians).
You phrase things that way and by doing so you manifest a discourse which is far more extreame than in actual reality.
Why is that?

 

[Phatguysrule]

why phrase this way? Iran has 90 Mil in population. After two weeks of war and neumerous bombing - can you look how many Iranian people died (IRGC + Civilians).
You phrase things that way and by doing so you manifest a discourse which is far more extreame than in actual reality.
Why is that?

I phrased it that way because the Native Americans were used as an example in the post I replied to.

I'm not suggesting that we are going to or that that is the plan. I'm simply suggesting that it should not be.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I'm not arguing that war is wrong, I just am arguing your blanket statements about the aftermath of war. I don't believe anyone hear is advocating for invading sovereign nations but you can draw your own lines in the sand. Ideologies rarely pan out the way they should when weapons are used to promote them. Iran was wiping out it's own people before this conflict. It's not like this happened in a vacuum.

My point is that diplomacy matters. Diplomatic means should be the primary course of action.

We have lost any moral high ground due to this administrations missteps. So I foresee this ending badly.

 

[riverman]

My point is that diplomacy matters. Diplomatic means should be the primary course of action.

We have lost any moral high ground due to this administrations missteps. So I foresee this ending badly.

Iran walked out of the meeting with Trump as he probably just insulted them ..diplomacy failed if it ever was on the table. It's already ending badly as is Venezuela. There's no plan and we have Fox news personalities waging war. Clown town.

 

[Shaboid]

What a fucking idiot.