OT Was Robert E. Lee really all that evil?

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Nikolokolus said:
Morality and ethics are always evolving and changing, it's never been a fixed object. And who is hiding anything? Nobody has tried to hide the fact that Washington and Jefferson held slaves; it's just part of history, and frankly I don't think Lee or any other general owning slaves makes them inherently evil.

The issue isn't that the statues should come down to whitewash history, it's that these men are now as much symbols as they are historical figures; symbols of defiance against abolition. Symbols of a long and bloody history of oppression and subjugation. And right now a lot of these symbols are on public property. I'm almost 100% sure removing these statues isn't going to improve race relations, or change the day-to-day lives of a single person, and it would be purely a symbolic gesture, but it's the right thing to do. If private individuals want to display these statues/symbols then I say let them, but these statues probably shouldn't state-sanctioned memorials.
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Wrong again. I already said to take them down and the girl I saw interviewed said she sees that statue from everywhere in town. So, it will improve her day to day life if it is taken down.

That doesn't mean people with ropes get to tear it down themselves.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
200_s.gif
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Ha! If Dviss was here I'd have wrote that differently. I can't ever be sure if I make the right choice.
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
Wrong again. I already said to take them down and the girl I saw interviewed said she sees that statue from everywhere in town. So, it will improve her day to day life if it is taken down.

That doesn't mean people with ropes get to tear it down themselves.
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Wrong again? About what? I feel like we're in two different conversations right now. This is the: "Is Robert E. Lee really that Evil" thread right? I don't remember anybody bringing up people tearing them down themselves, which is a separate issue.
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
Hell, you people just make me Google shit that seems obvious. Wikipedia (the be all end all of knowledge) says what I'm saying. COTTON. The end.
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Well, people certainly have a god-given right to enslave others if it helps them make money growing COTTON.

barfo
 
Nikolokolus said:
Wrong again? About what? I feel like we're in two different conversations right now. This is the: "Is Robert E. Lee really that Evil" thread right? I don't remember anybody bringing up people tearing them down themselves, which is a separate issue.
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About the statue coming down not impacting someone's daily life. If there was some giant Swastika visible in Israel every day taking it down would greatly improve things.

I don't know if Robert E Lee was evil. Never met him. We see people arrested for shit all the time and they interview people and they had no idea. How would anyone today know what Lee was really like?

He could have done horrific things and not been caught. There weren't cameras and police everywhere.
 
barfo said:
Well, people certainly have a god-given right to enslave others if it helps them make money growing COTTON.

barfo
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Hey, let's play pretend. Let's say slavery existed until WW2 and just prior we thought about releasing all the slaves.

Right before we did, boom! Pearl Harbor. So, we kept the slaves on to build ships and planes to win the war. Then we decided to release all the slaves after the war. Are we good or bad?

Assume that by keeping the slaves a few extra years we saved millions of people from being exterminated.
 
Nikolokolus said:
Morality and ethics are always evolving and changing, it's never been a fixed object. And who is hiding anything? Nobody has tried to hide the fact that Washington and Jefferson held slaves; it's just part of history, and frankly I don't think Lee or any other general owning slaves makes them inherently evil.

The issue isn't that the statues should come down to whitewash history, it's that these men are now as much symbols as they are historical figures; symbols of defiance against abolition. Symbols of a long and bloody history of oppression and subjugation. And right now a lot of these symbols are on public property. I'm almost 100% sure removing these statues isn't going to improve race relations, or change the day-to-day lives of a single person, and it would be purely a symbolic gesture, but it's the right thing to do. If private individuals want to display these statues/symbols then I say let them, but these statues probably shouldn't state-sanctioned memorials.
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Are you suggesting you want to force states to give up everything you find offensive?
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
Not what I said.
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You seemed to be making an argument that it was ok that the south had slaves because that's where they were useful?

Maybe I didn't get the drift. What were you saying?

barfo
 
barfo said:
You seemed to be making an argument that it was ok that the south had slaves because that's where they were useful?

Maybe I didn't get the drift. What were you saying?

barfo
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I was saying the North had an easier out by not needing them as badly. If you don't have a purpose for something it is easier to give up.

So, the moral superiority is subjective.
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
He could have done horrific things and not been caught.
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Ah! he did no evil. You want evil, look to Sheridan. Lincoln sent him on the mission of making sure the people of South Carolina knew personally the horror of war.
He scorched the place, raped and burned from one end to the other. On the orders of the President no less.
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
Hey, let's play pretend. Let's say slavery existed until WW2 and just prior we thought about releasing all the slaves.

Right before we did, boom! Pearl Harbor. So, we kept the slaves on to build ships and planes to win the war. Then we decided to release all the slaves after the war. Are we good or bad?

Assume that by keeping the slaves a few extra years we saved millions of people from being exterminated.
Click to expand...

Also, lets assume that for each day a slave is kept, a child born in the future will suffer a non-life-threatening disability.

And, lets assume that one of the people that was saved by the slave labor turned out to be the next Hitler.

And, lets assume that if one too many slaves are kept, aliens invade earth and kill everyone. Everyone knows that, but no one knows what the magic number is.

And, assume that Train A leaves the station at 8:45 travelling at 30 mph, while Train B, the express train, leaves 10 minutes later.

How long does it take to fill the bath?

barfo
 
barfo said:
Also, lets assume that for each day a slave is kept, a child born in the future will suffer a non-life-threatening disability.

And, lets assume that one of the people that was saved by the slave labor turned out to be the next Hitler.

And, lets assume that if one too many slaves are kept, aliens invade earth and kill everyone. Everyone knows that, but no one knows what the magic number is.

And, assume that Train A leaves the station at 8:45 travelling at 30 mph, while Train B, the express train, leaves 10 minutes later.

How long does it take to fill the bath?

barfo
Click to expand...
How big is the tub and what temperature do you want it? And you do want water, correct?
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
About the statue coming down not impacting someone's daily life. If there was some giant Swastika visible in Israel every day taking it down would greatly improve things.

I don't know if Robert E Lee was evil. Never met him. We see people arrested for shit all the time and they interview people and they had no idea. How would anyone today know what Lee was really like?

He could have done horrific things and not been caught. There weren't cameras and police everywhere.
Click to expand...
OK, awesome. It will make some people feel a little better, which is fine. My point was that taking them down won't eradicate racism or dramatically improve/degrade people's lives.

As for Lee, we agree. We don't know how "evil" he was/wasn't. Most of his contemporaries described him as a gentleman, and shrewd tactician and strategist, who didn't want the U.S. to dissolve, but fought for his home state out of a sense of loyalty. That's not really the issue anyway (despite El Presidente's bogus rhetorical question). I seriously doubt a single person opposed to Lee's statue is concerned with Lee the man. It's the symbolism of the statue that people take issue with.
 
Nikolokolus said:
OK, awesome. It will make some people feel a little better, which is fine. My point was that taking them down won't eradicate racism or dramatically improve/degrade people's lives.

As for Lee, we agree. We don't know how "evil" he was/wasn't. Most of his contemporaries described him as a gentleman, and shrewd tactician and strategist, who didn't want the U.S. to dissolve, but fought for his home state out of a sense of loyalty. That's not really the issue anyway (despite El Presidente's bogus rhetorical question). I seriously doubt a single person opposed to Lee's statue is concerned with Lee the man. It's the symbolism of the statue that people take issue with.
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Agree.

Although, if black people feel slighted by these statues and we take them down voluntarily it could help race relations I suppose.

I still think putting a bigger MLK statue next to them with a disapproving frown of some sort would be better. That would make people think.
 
I think the shit will hit the fan more than big time when these assholes start trashing Arlington National Cemetery. Lee's place you know.
 
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