OT Was Robert E. Lee really all that evil?

[Rastapopoulos]

Also: lol at Denny accusing barfo of "paroting" the Media and then using a Trump tweet:

 

[Minstrel]

DennyCrane's primer on being a traitor:

Questioning a Republican president during war: treason
Leading an army against the US, as a US citizen: basically okay, what makes him worse than Washington or Jefferson?

It's quite amazing the things you'll say if you think you can annoy liberals. Fortunately, it's been at least a decade since I thought you actually believed the things you post.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[Natebishop3]

Economically, I wonder what the South would have looked like if they had not gone to war and had instead freed all the slaves?

I'm sure the Civil War had a profound impact on their economy. The cost of the army and the damages of battles raging across your countryside had to have been immense, and in the end they had to free all the slaves anyway.

So if they had instead just threw up their hands and went with freeing them without war, I wonder what things would have looked like.

 

[Minstrel]

Economically, I wonder what the South would have looked like if they had not gone to war and had instead freed all the slaves?

I'm sure the Civil War had a profound impact on their economy. The cost of the army and the damages of battles raging across your countryside had to have been immense, and in the end they had to free all the slaves anyway.

So if they had instead just threw up their hands and went with freeing them without war, I wonder what things would have looked like.

From what I've read. slave labor wasn't even all that great economically. They still had to feed, clothe, shelter and take care of them, which was potentially more costly than paying them a wage and letting them figure out their own arrangements.

And yeah, the war devastated them. Going to war over slavery set them back massively.

 

[Denny Crane]

Also: lol at Denny accusing barfo of "paroting" the Media and then using a Trump tweet:

I don't watch Fox News, nor cite their links here (rarely).

I did cite the source himself. Without a comedian or echo chamber filter that you live in on Twitter.

 

[Denny Crane]

DennyCrane's primer on being a traitor:

Questioning a Republican president during war: treason
Leading an army against the US, as a US citizen: basically okay, what makes him worse than Washington or Jefferson?

It's quite amazing the things you'll say if you think you can annoy liberals. Fortunately, it's been at least a decade since I thought you actually believed the things you post.

What's amazing is the strawmen you throw out there and can't even defeat those arguments.

 

[Minstrel]

What's amazing is the strawmen you throw out there and can't even defeat those arguments.

At least we agree that it's amazing. We can let The People decide what is actually the amazing thing.

 

[Denny Crane]

Economically, I wonder what the South would have looked like if they had not gone to war and had instead freed all the slaves?

I'm sure the Civil War had a profound impact on their economy. The cost of the army and the damages of battles raging across your countryside had to have been immense, and in the end they had to free all the slaves anyway.

So if they had instead just threw up their hands and went with freeing them without war, I wonder what things would have looked like.

The South had very little power in congress at that point. Newer states joining the Union sided (or were in) the North for the most part. A huge thing going on at the time was the building of the railroads. That meant massive economic benefit for the Northern states and it crushed the South's ability to get their cotton and tobacco (etc.) to markets.

Unless there were some massive change in how the Northern states were voting themselves benefits from the treasury (funds to build, land to build on), the South would likely have been even worse off today.

As it was, the era of reconstruction involved actual construction in the South.

Though to this day, it's stunning how poor a city like New Orleans is. I was there just prior to Katrina and it was blatantly obvious how poor the government was and the people for the most part. And to this day, there are a lot of people (even here) who suggest cutting them off (kicking them out of the union).

 

[Denny Crane]

At least we agree that it's amazing. We can let The People decide what is actually the amazing thing.

Well, I never said questioning a republican president in war time is treason. That's a figment of your imagination.

I can go on and rebut every bogus point like that you make, but you keep coming back with it.

Yes, let the people decide.

 

[H.C.]

Though to this day, it's stunning how poor a city like New Orleans is. I was there just prior to Katrina and it was blatantly obvious how poor the government was and the people for the most part. And to this day, there are a lot of people (even here) who suggest cutting them off (kicking them out of the union).[/QUOTE

We're going to build a wall, because NO is a bunch of rapists and murderers.
It's going to be a big, beautiful wall.

 

[Denny Crane]

Are you trying to prove me right?

Good job

 

[H.C.]

Are you trying to prove me right?

Good job

I was being sarcastic ~

 

[barfo]

Well, I never said questioning a republican president in war time is treason. That's a figment of your imagination.

I can go on and rebut every bogus point like that you make, but you keep coming back with it.

Yes, let the people decide.

I've made my decision.

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

Well, I never said questioning a republican president in war time is treason. That's a figment of your imagination.

Nah. When Bush was president, you accused all the liberals questioning his decisions of treason and emboldening the enemy. You posted lots of Jane Fonda pictures to compare contemporary liberals to. You remember, you just don't find it convenient now (not that it ever jibed with your "libertarian" persona).

 

[santeesioux]

Are they going to start tearing down Cherokee statues since they fought on the side of the Confederacy and owned slaves?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_Watie

 

[Denny Crane]

Nah. When Bush was president, you accused all the liberals questioning his decisions of treason and emboldening the enemy. You posted lots of Jane Fonda pictures to compare contemporary liberals to. You remember, you just don't find it convenient now (not that it ever jibed with your "libertarian" persona).

I did not accuse anyone of treason. It did embolden the enemy.

NBER and Harvard said so.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13839

Is There an "Emboldenment" Effect? Evidence from the Insurgency in Iraq
Radha Iyengar, Jonathan Monten
NBER Working Paper No. 13839
Issued in March 2008
NBER Program(s): POL

Are insurgents affected by new information about the United States' sensitivity to costs? Using data on attacks and variation in access to international news across Iraqi provinces, we identify an "emboldenment" effect by comparing the rate of insurgent attacks in areas with higher and lower access to information about U.S news after public statements critical of the war. We find that in periods after a spike in war-critical statements, insurgent attacks increases by 7-10 percent, but that this effect dissipates within a month. Additionally, we find that insurgents shift attacks from Iraqi civilian to U.S. military targets following new information about the United States' sensitivity to costs, resulting in more U.S. fatalities but fewer deaths overall. These results suggest that there is a small but measurable cost to open public debate in the form of higher attacks in the short-term, and that Iraqi insurgent organizations - even those motivated by religious or ideological goals - are strategic actors that respond rationally to the expected probability of US withdrawal. However, the implied costs of open, public debate must be weighed against the potential gains. We conclude that to the extent insurgent groups respond rationally to the incentives set by the policies of pro-government forces, effective counterinsurgency should prioritize manipulating costs and inducements, rather than focus simply on search and destroy missions.

 

[Denny Crane]

As for Fonda, she was literally a traitor. She literally went to North Vietnam and made propaganda messages against the United States and the military.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/11/blame-jane-falsehoods/

It is true that Fonda, an actress and activist, traveled to Hanoi, North Vietnam, in 1972 to protest U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

She delivered several messages on the communist country’s Radio Hanoi encouraging American soldiers not to bomb the North Vietnamese. She also reportedly called freed American prisoners of war returning to the U.S. "hypocrites and liars" for claiming they had been tortured by their captors. And she was infamously photographed posing warmly with a group of North Vietnamese soldiers at an anti-aircraft gun site during her visit there. Her actions earned her the moniker "Hanoi Jane" from war veterans of that era who still harbor bad feelings toward her to this day.

...

Michael Benge letter excerpt, 1999: At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.). We were Jane Fonda’s "war criminals." When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as "humane and lenient."

Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a piece of steel rebar placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped. Jane Fonda had the audacity to say that the POWs were lying about our torture and treatment.

Now ABC is allowing Barbara Walters to honor Jane Fonda in her Feature "100 Years of Great Women." Shame, shame on Jane Fonda! Shame, shame on Barbara Walters! Shame, shame on 20-20. Shame, shame on ABC. And, shame, shame on the Disney Company.

 

[Minstrel]

Yes, you posted all that during the Bush presidency and compared modern liberals to Fonda to link them to the treason you considered Fonda guilty of. I'm actually surprised that you're denying it now--I'd have thought you'd still want to try to troll liberals with the idea. Maybe once we're at war with North Korea, you'll re-purpose it.

 

[barfo]

I think we should tear down all the Jane Fonda statues.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, you posted all that during the Bush presidency and compared modern liberals to Fonda to link them to the treason you considered Fonda guilty of. I'm actually surprised that you're denying it now--I'd have thought you'd still want to try to troll liberals with the idea. Maybe once we're at war with North Korea, you'll re-purpose it.

I didn't see the benefit of protesting the wars. If you wanted to end them, root for QUICK victory, because we're there no matter what. That's what I posted.

I've proven that there's a benefit for the enemy, and I've proven Fonda a traitor.

Whatever you're trying to do is pretty lame.

 

[Minstrel]

I didn't see the benefit of protesting the wars. If you wanted to end them, root for QUICK victory, because we're there no matter what. That's what I posted.

It isn't, but I understand that your laugh lines have an expiration date in your mind before you move on to the next. In a few years, you'll claim you never said Trump had the potential to be a great President, that the Supreme Court doesn't rule on the constitutionality of laws, that local governments removing statues is exactly the same as the Taliban, etc. We must enjoy your crazy in the moment--when you move on, you move on hard.

 

[Denny Crane]

It isn't, but I understand that your laugh lines have an expiration date in your mind before you move on to the next. In a few years, you'll claim you never said Trump had the potential to be a great President, that the Supreme Court doesn't rule on the constitutionality of laws, that local governments removing statues is exactly the same as the Taliban, etc. We must enjoy your crazy in the moment--when you move on, you move on hard.

Nope. He does have the potential. I'd like to see it.

You were schooled about the Court already, and the rest I have no problem standing behind.

 

[barfo]

It isn't, but I understand that your laugh lines have an expiration date in your mind before you move on to the next. In a few years, you'll claim you never said Trump had the potential to be a great President, that the Supreme Court doesn't rule on the constitutionality of laws, that local governments removing statues is exactly the same as the Taliban, etc. We must enjoy your crazy in the moment--when you move on, you move on hard.

I believe the current lingo is "move on like a bitch".

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

You were schooled about the Court already, and the rest I have no problem standing behind.

I was told that the Supreme Court isn't interested in the constitutionality of laws that come before them. The only "school" that that belongs in is Trump University. You do know that you don't have to become Trump to support him, right?

 

[MarAzul]

He fought to establish a country of slavery.

This is only correct in the smallest technical way. Slavery was the way of the world at the time, but the Revolutionary war had nothing to do with slavery as you can see in the declaration of Independence. The founders did not establish slavery, at all. Indeed most of them struggled to deal with it as it was a fact of life. They founded a new nation with principals superior to what had been done before. That they did not correct the ills of slavery at the same time as founding a new nation, is a ridiculous complaint commonly heard today. It took the world many more years to reduce the practice after the British outlawed the slave trade when Jefferson was President. Jefferson signed on to this treaty, making the United States the first country to join the British in stopping the slave trade.

As ships from the British Isles began their two year deployment at sea in this era, their first station of duty was in the central Atlantic Slave trade sea lanes. This was on the tradewind routes to the Caribbean so it was a natural fit in their duty cycle. Here they attempted to intercept any slave ships and return the Slaves to Africa. Liberia was the country they returned any slaves freed. Liberia was a new country set up by the United States, the Capital of Monrovia is named after US President James Monroe. Liberia was the place to return the slaves as it was reasoned that the rest of Africa was selling the people into the slave trade and it would be most cruel and inefficient to return the slave to the land that sold them in the first place.

I have an old journal from this era, the owner served as the Sailing Master on a British frigate assigned to this duty. Very little is still readable but I did make out "returning to Liberia" and other fragments. Not absolutely sure he was a "Sailing Master either as what ever word Sailing is, is unclear. So I speculate. Darn hard to make out the words in and old sea book, written by a man that spoke English, but Gaelic at home and the spelling of those words is all over the place, as there is no written language for that tongue.

 

[Denny Crane]

I was told that the Supreme Court isn't interested in the constitutionality of laws that come before them. The only "school" that that belongs in is Trump University. You do know that you don't have to become Trump to support him, right?

And Roberts and the others proved you wrong on multiple occasions. You don't learn, so maybe school is wasted on you.

 

[Denny Crane]

This is only correct in the smallest technical way. Slavery was the way of the world at the time, but the Revolutionary war had nothing to do with slavery as you can see in the declaration of Independence. The founders did not establish slavery, at all. Indeed most of them struggled to deal with it as it was a fact of life. They founded a new nation with principals superior to what had been done before. That they did not correct the ills of slavery at the same time as founding a new nation, is a ridiculous complaint commonly heard today. It took the world many more years to reduce the practice after the British outlawed the slave trade when Jefferson was President. Jefferson signed on to this treaty, making the United States the first country to join the British in stopping the slave trade.

As ships from the British Isles began their two year deployment at sea in this era, their first station of duty was in the central Atlantic Slave trade sea lanes. This was on the tradewind routes to the Caribbean so it was a natural fit in their duty cycle. Here they attempted to intercept any slave ships and return the Slaves to Africa. Liberia was the country they returned any slaves freed. Liberia was a new country set up by the United States, the Capital of Monrovia is named after US President James Monroe. Liberia was the place to return the slaves as it was reasoned that the rest of Africa was selling the people into the slave trade and it would be most cruel and inefficient to return the slave to the land that sold them in the first place.

I have an old journal from this era, the owner served as the Sailing Master on a British frigate assigned to this duty. Very little is still readable but I did make out "returning to Liberia" and other fragments. Not absolutely sure he was a "Sailing Master either as what ever word Sailing is, is unclear. So I speculate. Darn hard to make out the words in and old sea book, written by a man that spoke English, but Gaelic at home and the spelling of those words is all over the place, as there is no written language for that tongue.

They wrote the constitution with slavery in it.

 

[MarAzul]

They wrote the constitution with slavery in it.

Very observant Denny. Slavery existed and they dealt with it. The did not create it.

 

[Denny Crane]

Very observant Denny. Slavery existed and the dealt with it. The did not create it.

They created the country with legal slavery. They could have made everyone Free. It's one of the most regrettable compromises in the history of government.