OT Was Robert E. Lee really all that evil?

[Denny Crane]

You can keep saying that as the local mayors and governors continue to take down Confederate memorials.

It is up to them if they want to allow violent mobs to force them to do these things. That's nik's definition of terrorism, eh?

 

[Minstrel]

It is up to them

Indeed. States' rights and the sanctity of local governments making decisions for the people they represent.

 

[Denny Crane]

Indeed. States' rights and the sanctity of local governments making decisions for the people they represent.

Except when it's inconvenient for you.

 

[Sinobas]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Yeah Lee was not a great guy. He owned slaves and led a war to maintain that institution. If that's not enough for you, he was not a kind, benevolent slave owner either. Not only did he own slaves, he sought to separate families and beat them mercilessly.

Lee was not actually fighting to maintain slavery, he fought to defend his home state, Virginia. Most confederate soldiers did not even own slaves, they felt they were fighting to defend their states.

Here is one of his writings in slavery, misguided, but I don't see "evil" here.
In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

— Robert E. Lee, to Mary Anna Lee, December 27, 1856

 

[Sinobas]

So much black and white thinking these days. Anyone that had anything to do with slavery should be cast into an "evil and disgusting box". The truth is, everyone has flaws, and every culture has flaws. People will look back on us some day and think "what the hell were they thinking" about a number of things in our society. That doesn't mean we can't also honor the good in prior people and times.

 

[Minstrel]

Except when it's inconvenient for you.

Yes, I'm not a states' rights absolutist. If states or local governments do terrible things (like, you know, slavery), then I think the federal government has a role in busting that up.

You, however, are a states' rights absolutist, aren't you? You've certainly implied that you are. So if it's the local mayors and governors doing it, rather than the feds with their tanks, it should be absolutely kosher for you.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, I'm not a states' rights absolutist. If states or local governments do terrible things (like, you know, slavery), then I think the federal government has a role in busting that up.

You, however, are a states' rights absolutist, aren't you? You've certainly implied that you are. So if it's the local mayors and governors doing it, rather than the feds with their tanks, it should be absolutely kosher for you.

I am the opposite of a statist. I think government is upside down. The power belongs at the most local level as possible, not in some site of centralized planning on the other side of the country.

It speaks volumes when the mayor of Baltimore has statues removed in the middle of the night and without announcement. That's not at all submitting the decision to scrutiny, and clearly a move out of fear of the mob. That's what you bring.

 

[Minstrel]

I think government is upside down. The power belongs at the most local level as possible

So if the statues are removed by the local governments, everything's working as intended in your view.

It speaks volumes when the mayor of Baltimore has statues removed in the middle of the night and without announcement.

Seems like he wanted to avoid a scene like Charlottesville. It isn't as though doing it at night means no one knows it happened--if his constituents don't like it, he'll pay for it in the next re-election (or his party will, if he's not up for re-election). That's the accountability, as with all elected officials.

 

[Denny Crane]

So if the statues are removed by the local governments, everything's working as intended in your view.



Seems like he wanted to avoid a scene like Charlottesville. It isn't as though doing it at night means no one knows it happened--if his constituents don't like it, he'll pay for it in the next re-election (or his party will, if he's not up for re-election). That's the accountability, as with all elected officials.

I've written several times now that I have no personal investment in these statues. Even moreso, I have no interest in reaching out and touching the people of other localities from afar and forcing your malformed opinion on them.

The mayor is a coward.

 

[Minstrel]

Even moreso, I have no interest in reaching out and touching the people of other localities from afar and forcing your malformed opinion on them.

Rest easy, buddy, I'm not tearing down any statues. I'm not touching other localities from afar or forcing my brilliant and well-reasoned opinion upon them.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Well, is there any Robert E Lee DNA left that we could clone him with?

Clone him and we'll test him for evil. Until then we can only guess.

I wonder if Lucy was evil?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus)

 

[barfo]

Well, is there any Robert E Lee DNA left that we could clone him with?

Clone him and we'll test him for evil. Until then we can only guess.

I wonder if Lucy was evil?

Of course Lucy was evil. Didn't you see how many times Charlie Brown landed on his back?

barfo

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Of course Lucy was evil. Didn't you see how many times Charlie Brown landed on his back?

barfo

Charlie Brown was such a dummy.

 

[barfo]

Charlie Brown was such a dummy.

We should tear down his statue.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Rest easy, buddy, I'm not tearing down any statues. I'm not touching other localities from afar or forcing my brilliant and well-reasoned opinion upon them.

Thank goodness.

Though you would if you could.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

We should tear down his statue.

barfo

Just convert it to an HCP statue. Almost done.

 

[Minstrel]

Thank goodness.

Though you would if you could.

No, this is the type of thing that I'm fine with letting mayors and governors decide for themselves. It's only when local action rises to the level of taking away people's rights, like slavery or voter suppression, that I think outside influence is warranted.

 

[Nikolokolus]

It is up to them if they want to allow violent mobs to force them to do these things. That's nik's definition of terrorism, eh?

You keep using my so-called definition of terrorism in a completely spurious and disingenuous way. Again I'll restate what I said: the politically motivated slaying committed by the driver against a mass of people seems to fit the Merriam-Webster definition of terrorism. Feel free to tag me in the future if you're going to continue to misrepresent my words.

 

[Denny Crane]

You keep using my so-called definition of terrorism in a completely spurious and disingenuous way. Again I'll restate what I said: the politically motivated slaying committed by the driver against a mass of people seems to fit the Merriam-Webster definition of terrorism. Feel free to tag me in the future if you're going to continue to misrepresent my words.

I didn't misrepresent your words.

Your definition included violence and intimidation with the goal of effecting public policy.

Violence? Check. Just watch the videos of left and right thrown punches, police killed trying to keep the peace.
Intimidation? Check. Mayor of Baltimore so intimidated the statues removed in the middle of the night, without public discussion.
Effected public policy? Check. Statues removed.

All the check boxes.

The will of the people is resoundingly to keep the statues. What's going on isn't the will of the people, but the will of "terrorists."

 

[MarAzul]

#fakesuperioritybutnicetrytory!
I always knew you were a loyalist!
2. An American who, during the period of the American Revolution, favored the British side. Also called Loyalist.
3. often tory A supporter of traditional political and social institutions against the forces of democratization or reform; a political conservative.

Good day River.
What you jacking your self up about?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Why the heck does anyone want to change the symbols of history? It will not change history. It can not actual change anyones condition.
It is a fools road to feeling better but it will not be enough.

I'm only catching up here but me personally I'm indifferent. But I am a white male.

Here is one reason I would think local communities might want to remove statues of those who sought oppression of minoritues during thier tenure of respective position.

A reminder.

Minorities might see it as a reminder and though it may not provoke anger and hatred in all, it might bring sadness of memories of the historical suffering they, their families and loved ones might have had to endure.
If the removal of the statue helps these individuals live a happier and more peaceful life, then let them vote to have them removed.

 

[MarAzul]

then let them vote to have them removed

Seems reasonable.

But.... why now? Why only in places run by Democrats? What was the recent catalyst?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

W.E.B DuBois, on Robert E. Lee:

 

[stampedehero]

If Lee was a Union General the war would have been short. I don't advocate removal of any civil war soldiers' statue. These men were honored for standing up for beliefs that changed our US history. Why does this become a hot shit subject when 150 years has already passed by? Its political corrosiveness BS.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Seems reasonable.

But.... why now? Why only in places run by Democrats? What was the recent catalyst?

Who knows. WHy did we invent the wheel when we did? why not sooner or later? Why did it take until the 60's for us to recognize legally the equality of both sexes and all races?

When the lightbulb turns on, it turns on. Don't question the light, just get as much done to improve your surroundings while you can see, before it goes off, right?

 

[Bob Dobalina]

Why the heck does anyone want to change the symbols of history? It will not change history. It can not actual change anyones condition.
It is a fools road to feeling better but it will not be enough.

I can tell you every time I see one of these pickups driving around VANCOUVER WASHINGTON with a confederate flag mounted in the back, it changes my emotional condition on the spot. I'm not arguing for outlawing it, but I disagree with your assessment of the affect it has on me.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I can tell you every time I see one of these pickups driving around VANCOUVER WASHINGTON with a confederate flag mounted in the back, it changes my emotional condition on the spot. I'm not arguing for outlawing it, but I disagree with your assessment of the affect it has on me.

Uhhhh, I'd be entirely more pissed that they are likely to "roll coal" or whatever it is they call it. Should lose their license for a year.

 

[MarAzul]

the affect it has

I hope it isn't too difficult.

 

[MarAzul]

When the lightbulb turns on, it turns on.

When you look closely, you may see the switch has a operator.

 

[Bob Dobalina]

Uhhhh, I'd be entirely more pissed that they are likely to "roll coal" or whatever it is they call it. Should lose their license for a year.

Guessing you're not black.