Bogus! We are quietly doing Philly's lame "process"

[wizenheimer]

Please point out the links saying that would’ve.

the platypus did already

 

[Whyachi]

Current Pistons have a bright future. Cade and Ivey are for real.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Not so much that they "wouldn't have made the trade without Allen," but that the Suns tentatively agreed to the trade with the understanding that a guard making about that much would also be included.

https://burncitysports.com/2023/09/...fter-learning-they-would-receive-this-player/



Seems reasonable to conclude that if they hadn't procured and included a guard of Allen's caliber, the Suns would not have been on board.

And goodness knows there are no other guards of that quality out there...

 

[SharpesTriumph]

And goodness knows there are no other guards of that quality out there...

He's 28, shot 46% from 3 and started 73 games, while on a cheap contract. It's kind of insane that some posters here are implying he was a random throwin that had little impact on the Suns agreeing to the final trade.

There is a strong argument he was by far the best player or asset in the trade outside Dame/Jrue.

 

[Phatguysrule]

He's 28, shot 46% from 3 and started 73 games, while on a cheap contract. It's kind of insane that some posters here are implying he was a random throwin that had little impact on the Suns agreeing to the final trade.

There is a strong argument he was by far the best player or asset in the trade outside Dame/Jrue.

They had already agreed to the trade in principle without him included. That's a fact.

Nobody is dissing on him. Simply stating the facts. We could have traded for Ayton without trading Dame.

If somebody wants to claim we couldn't have included Camara, fine. But the Ayton/Nurk trade was going to happen anyway.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

They had already agreed to the trade in principle without him included. That's a fact.

That's not a fact. Allen was a key piece that Conin assured Phoenix they would find valuable enough to agree to the deal. There was never an agreement to do the trade without value at that position.

 

[Phatguysrule]

That's not a fact. Allen was a key piece that Conin assured Phoenix they would find valuable enough to agree to the deal. There was never an agreement to do the trade without value at that position.

Nobody has suggested there didn't need to be value at that position in a deal that didn't include a Dame trade.

 

[wizenheimer]

Nobody has suggested there didn't need to be value at that position in a deal that didn't include a Dame trade.

I kind of did, based upon the article by Woj. It certainly implied that Phoenix may have been content with Oladipo as that was one of the players they thought Portland might add to the equation

there's no certainty in this but my thinking is that the trade of Nurk+Little+Keon for Ayton would have happened with or without that mystery guard from the Dame trade. And it may have been that the upgrade from Oladipo to Allen gave the Blazers the leverage to pry away Camara

 

[Phatguysrule]

I kind of did, based upon the article by Woj. It certainly implied that Phoenix may have been content with Oladipo as that was one of the players they thought Portland might add to the equation

there's no certainty in this but my thinking is that the trade of Nurk+Little+Keon for Ayton would have happened with or without that mystery guard from the Dame trade. And it may have been that the upgrade from Oladipo to Allen gave the Blazers the leverage to pry away Camara

But Oladipo would be value, wouldn't he? It goes to support the theory that there exists a broad range of players that could have gotten it done.

That seems very clear considering everything that has been reported since. I really don't know why anybody would dispute it.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

there's no certainty in this but my thinking is that the trade of Nurk+Little+Keon for Ayton would have happened with or without that mystery guard from the Dame trade. And it may have been that the upgrade from Oladipo to Allen gave the Blazers the leverage to pry away Camara

Yes as you say this is a lot of your speculation.

Many reports that Dame wanted Nurk and specifically didn't want Ayton.

I don't think Nurk vs Ayton will really ultimately matter too much long term for the Blazers, neither will or won't impact contending. But I do think it's valid to combine all these components as a direct part of the Dame trade haul.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

But Oladipo would be value, wouldn't he? It goes to support the theory that there exists a broad range of players that could have gotten it done.

That seems very clear considering everything that has been reported since. I really don't know why anybody would dispute it.

I don't read the reporting as though Phoenix would've accepted Oladipo in place of Allen. He is 5 years older and only played 8 games the season prior, shot 33% threes this year.

They immediately agreed to the deal with Allen. If it was Oladipo perhaps they would have wanted one of the FRP or some other asset to finalize the trade.

 

[Phatguysrule]

If it was Oladipo perhaps they would have wanted one of the FRP or some other asset to finalize the trade.

Could well have been. It's possible. But they would have still been willing to deal.

 

[wizenheimer]

Yes as you say this is a lot of your speculation.

Many reports that Dame wanted Nurk and specifically didn't want Ayton.

I don't think Nurk vs Ayton will really ultimately matter too much long term for the Blazers, neither will or won't impact contending. But I do think it's valid to combine all these components as a direct part of the Dame trade haul.

obviously, all of us are speculating

and I didn't say that the Dame trade wouldn't have happened if the Ayton trade did. I think Cronin maneuvered Dame into asking for a trade and had every intention of completing it. He was just delaying the Ayton trade to see if it could be welded to the Dame trade while maybe adding another asset to the package. As I said, I suspect the upgrade from Oladipo to Allen may have been the leverage that landed Camara

for some reason, Cronin seemed fixated on Ayton. I agree with you, or at least with what you implied, that there will be little difference in impact between Ayton or Nurkic. Ayton is a better shooter, especially from mid-range; about even as scorers; Nurkic is a little better rebounder and much better passer; and Nurkic is a better rim protector and paint defender. Ayton may be a bit more mobile out on the perimeter. Ayton is certainly a lot more expensive

clearly, Phoenix knew the Blazers were talking to Milwaukee about Dame because they had Allen on the list of possible mystery guards (so it wasn't quite the secret some reports said).

The mystery I'm curious about is Oladipo. He was on OKC's roster at that time. How was a Dame trade going to bring in OKC? JRue to the Thunder? That's a scary thought....a backcourt of SGA, Jalen Williams, JRue, and Dort. OKC certainly has the portfolio of draft picks Cronin would have coveted. Would Dort have then been sent to Portland?

 

[HansenYang]

They had already agreed to the trade in principle without him included. That's a fact.

That is not a fact.

It was agreed to in principle, but Allen was included in the agreement. Phoenix just didn't know for sure who the player was. But based on the position, age, contract -> they knew it was 1 of 2-3 players (Kyle Anderson likely being the other).

It was already built into the calculus of the trade

 

[Phatguysrule]

That is not a fact.

It was agreed to in principle

Yes. I agree. That's a fact. It has been confirmed.

 

[HansenYang]

Yes. I agree. That's a fact. It has been confirmed.

Allen's (or a corresponding asset) inclusion was the basis for the agreement in principle.

Your statement was stating that they had the agreement without the inclusion of Allen (or corresponding asset)... which is not correct

 

[Phatguysrule]

Allen's (or a corresponding asset) inclusion was the basis for the agreement in principle.

Your statement was stating that they had the agreement without the inclusion of Allen (or corresponding asset)... which is not correct

That is not my statement. But I appreciate your effort stating things for me.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

obviously, all of us are speculating

and I didn't say that the Dame trade wouldn't have happened if the Ayton trade did. I think Cronin maneuvered Dame into asking for a trade and had every intention of completing it. He was just delaying the Ayton trade to see if it could be welded to the Dame trade while maybe adding another asset to the package. As I said, I suspect the upgrade from Oladipo to Allen may have been the leverage that landed Camara

for some reason, Cronin seemed fixated on Ayton. I agree with you, or at least with what you implied, that there will be little difference in impact between Ayton or Nurkic. Ayton is a better shooter, especially from mid-range; about even as scorers; Nurkic is a little better rebounder and much better passer; and Nurkic is a better rim protector and paint defender. Ayton may be a bit more mobile out on the perimeter. Ayton is certainly a lot more expensive

clearly, Phoenix knew the Blazers were talking to Milwaukee about Dame because they had Allen on the list of possible mystery guards (so it wasn't quite the secret some reports said).

The mystery I'm curious about is Oladipo. He was on OKC's roster at that time. How was a Dame trade going to bring in OKC? JRue to the Thunder? That's a scary thought....a backcourt of SGA, Jalen Williams, JRue, and Dort. OKC certainly has the portfolio of draft picks Cronin would have coveted. Would Dort have then been sent to Portland?

I never read it as discussions happened with OKC. Just that Cronin gave some specifics on the player to PHX that indicated it was likely Allen or Oladipo.

 

[beast blazer]

People talk about this like the 76ers did some brilliant thing but 3 out of their 4 players they got were busts. Simmons, Okafor and Fultz.

 

[wizenheimer]

People talk about this like the 76ers did some brilliant thing but 3 out of their 4 players they got were busts. Simmons, Okafor and Fultz.

Simmons looked awfully good for a while, but then the excrement struck the rotary oscillator. The 76ers could have drafted Brandon Ingram, Jalen Brown, Jamal Murray, Sabonis or Siakam

Okafor was definitely a bust, but the 76ers could have drafted Porzingis, Myles Turner, or Devin Booker

and yeah, Fultz was a major fuckup. But the 76ers could have drafted Tatum, Fox, Markkanen, Donovan Mitchell, or Bam Adebayo

that 'process' was about creating opportunities and it was extremely successful at doing that. The 76ers could have a 3-headed monster of Embiid, Booker, and Tatum; or any mix-&-match puzzle from those 3 options above. That they don't isn't really the fault of the process; it's the fault of prospect evaluation after the process has completed

 

[Natebishop3]

Yup.

Imagine if their lineup was

Booker
Ingram
Tatum
Embiid

Being in the lottery is about having a chance to draft a star. Then it's up to your front office. And so far I think our front office has had a really good eye for talent at the position their picking.

Sharpe
Scoot
Walker
Rupert
Murray is still questionable for me.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Simmons looked awfully good for a while, but then the excrement struck the rotary oscillator. The 76ers could have drafted Brandon Ingram, Jalen Brown, Jamal Murray, Sabonis or Siakam

Okafor was definitely a bust, but the 76ers could have drafted Porzingis, Myles Turner, or Devin Booker

and yeah, Fultz was a major fuckup. But the 76ers could have drafted Tatum, Fox, Markkanen, Donovan Mitchell, or Bam Adebayo

that 'process' was about creating opportunities and it was extremely successful at doing that. The 76ers could have a 3-headed monster of Embiid, Booker, and Tatum; or any mix-&-match puzzle from those 3 options above. That they don't isn't really the fault of the process; it's the fault of prospect evaluation after the process has completed

And how confident are you that our current governing team will do better (or faster), and even develop the talent as well or better than Philly has?

I'm... Not confident. Not dubious perhaps, but probably apprehensive.

 

[wizenheimer]

And how confident are you that our current governing team will do better (or faster), and even develop the talent as well or better than Philly has?

I'm... Not confident. Not dubious perhaps, but probably apprehensive.

I've been pretty clear that I think Portland has crappy ownership and that crappiness flows downhill, a lot

I'm also pretty skeptical about Cronin, but that mostly centers around 3 players: Ant-Grant-Ayton. It bothers me that Cronin had apparently coveted Ayton for 2-3 seasons. Generally, I don't think Ayton is the type of C that has much of a positive impact on winning. If his numbers aren't simply hollow, they are at least neutral. But with his salary, that's an expensive neutral

but mostly is a suspicion I have but Cronin could cancel that suspicion by future moves. My suspicion is that he has every intention of building around his idea of a 'big-3' core of Ant-Grant-Ayton, and my view is that none of those players is good enough or complete enough to be core pieces for any good team. Again. maybe he's holding his cards close, but if he goes ahead with those guys as the Blazer core, the Blazers are getting all their future mail delivered to an address in Purgatory

 

[Phatguysrule]

I've been pretty clear that I think Portland has crappy ownership and that crappiness flows downhill, a lot

I'm also pretty skeptical about Cronin, but that mostly centers around 3 players: Ant-Grant-Ayton. It bothers me that Cronin had apparently coveted Ayton for 2-3 seasons. Generally, I don't think Ayton is the type of C that has much of a positive impact on winning. If his numbers aren't simply hollow, they are at least neutral. But with his salary, that's an expensive neutral

but mostly is a suspicion I have but Cronin could change by future moves. My suspicion is that he has every intention of building around his idea of a 'big-3' core of Ant-Grant-Ayton, and my view is that none of those players is good enough or complete enough to be core pieces for any good team. Again. maybe he's holding his cards close, but if he goes ahead with those guys as the Blazer core, the Blazers are getting all their future mail delivered to an address in Purgatory

Agreed. This is my concern as well. I may not be as concerned about Ayton, but definitely about the rest.

Hoping he proves me wrong.

 

[illmatic99]

I've been pretty clear that I think Portland has crappy ownership and that crappiness flows downhill, a lot

I would take crappy ownership over the empty chair we have now.

 

[BIG Q]

I've been pretty clear that I think Portland has crappy ownership and that crappiness flows downhill, a lot

I'm also pretty skeptical about Cronin, but that mostly centers around 3 players: Ant-Grant-Ayton. It bothers me that Cronin had apparently coveted Ayton for 2-3 seasons. Generally, I don't think Ayton is the type of C that has much of a positive impact on winning. If his numbers aren't simply hollow, they are at least neutral. But with his salary, that's an expensive neutral

but mostly is a suspicion I have but Cronin could cancel that suspicion by future moves. My suspicion is that he has every intention of building around his idea of a 'big-3' core of Ant-Grant-Ayton, and my view is that none of those players is good enough or complete enough to be core pieces for any good team. Again. maybe he's holding his cards close, but if he goes ahead with those guys as the Blazer core, the Blazers are getting all their future mail delivered to an address in Purgatory

I too agree with most of this. I am just not as hard on Ayton because he is the perfect player to have IF Cronin jettisons Ant/Grant/Brogdon. Portland will need a big salary to keep them above the threshold while they are auditioning draft picks and young guys. Ayton's big salary will be halved when Scoot/Sharpe are eligible or earn new deals. Or Ayton gets traded or walks. I concede he is not worth his money. I have zero problems with Ayton. I respect that you do.

 

[KingSpeed]

They had already agreed to the trade in principle without him included. That's a fact.

Nobody is dissing on him. Simply stating the facts. We could have traded for Ayton without trading Dame.

If somebody wants to claim we couldn't have included Camara, fine. But the Ayton/Nurk trade was going to happen anyway.

How would you know?

 

[Phatguysrule]

How would you know?

It's been reported. Links have been posted. Read up the thread. The deal was agreed to in principle before the Dame trade. Before anybody even knew Milwaukee was interested in Dame.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

It's been reported. Links have been posted. Read up the thread. The deal was agreed to in principle before the Dame trade. Before anybody even knew Milwaukee was interested in Dame.

Pretty sure they wanted a decent wing in return though, even if it wasn't Allen. It was just interchangeable based on who that 3rd team would be. For instance Miami probably would have needed to be Caleb Martin.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

And how confident are you that our current governing team will do better (or faster), and even develop the talent as well or better than Philly has?

I'm... Not confident. Not dubious perhaps, but probably apprehensive.

Then why are you confident they'll do better trying to build a contender immediately?