What are your beliefs on religion, god? (1 Viewer)

[Denny Crane]

And with that; you need the historians to decipher what is real, backed with their interpretation of accurate. Just like Science; you have many different views on scientific models.

Just like science, since it is science, I look for the preponderance of convincing evidence.

The fact that 10 famous writers from the period describe the battle, then the archeologists find artifacts that date to the time and that match those described in those texts makes it believable.

When Joshua knocked down the walls of Jericho in the bible, yet they dug at Jericho and found it was destroyed 2500 years before Joshua lived, then 99% of historians disagree with your claim.

 

[magnifier661]

Just like science, since it is science, I look for the preponderance of convincing evidence.

The fact that 10 famous writers from the period describe the battle, then the archeologists find artifacts that date to the time and that match those described in those texts makes it believable.

When Joshua knocked down the walls of Jericho in the bible, yet they dug at Jericho and found it was destroyed 2500 years before Joshua lived, then 99% of historians disagree with your claim.

Link? I've never read this. You are usually on the ball with providing links to your statements. Funny how you aren't applying this rule to your current statement.

Also; there are thousands of historical events that took place in the bible. I hope you have a thousand page thread of you trying to discredit all of them.

 

[magnifier661]

Okay lets take a look at the historical evidence of Jericho shall we?

Section drawing of the north balk of Kathleen Kenyon’s 1950s west trench through the fortification system at Jericho. The yellow area is what remains of the earthen embankment that surrounded the tell at the time of the Conquest. It was held in place by a stone retaining wall. Atop the retaining wall and also at the crest of the embankment there were once mud brick walls. When the walls collapsed (Jos 6:20), they were deposited at the base of the retaining wall, shown.

The city had also been burned, exactly as the Bible records (Jos 6:24). As Kathleen Kenyon herself noted:

The destruction was complete. Walls and floors were blackened or reddened by fire, and every room was filled with fallen bricks, timbers, and household utensils; in most rooms the fallen debris was heavily burnt, but the collapse of the walls of the eastern rooms seems to have taken place before they were affected by the fire (Wood 1990:56).

Pottery found by John Garstang in the 1930s in the destruction layer at Jericho (note evidence of burning). This distinctive pottery, decorated with red and black geometric patterns, was in use only in the later part of the 15th century BC, the time of the Israelite Conquest according to Biblical chronology.

Oh and if you want the wiki answer, here it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho

Bronze age
Archaeological evidence indicates that in the latter half of the Middle Bronze Age (circa 1700 BC) the city enjoyed some prosperity, its walls having been strengthened and expanded.[21] According to carbon dating the Canaanite city (Jericho City IV) was destroyed between 1617 and 1530 BC.[22] The site remained uninhabited until the city was refounded in the 9th century BC.[citation needed]

Looks like it was historically accurate

Anyway, it was a nice try Denny. Got any more gems of pure propaganda?

 

[magnifier661]

Here are some historical archeological evidence that pbs.org published. I will type them because the site is done on flash. You can click the link and read them for yourself.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/biblical-archeology.html

Shasu People in YHW: Certain clues have led biblical scholars to reinterpret the exodus story to include the Shasu people, who lived in the desert of souther Canaan from around 1500 B.C until 1100 BC. Egyptian texts place Shasu people in a place called YHC around 1375 B.C. The name YHW, which may also refer to the Shasu's patron god, bears striking similarity to the name of the Israelite God, YHWH. Another clue is that, according to the Bible, Moses encounters the burning bush in the region of Midian (Exodus 3:1), which also lies in southern Canaan. Some scholars believe a band of refugee slaves from Egypt passed through Midian, including a place called YHW, and adopted the Shasu god as their divine deliverer.

1300-1100 B.C. Fall of Canaan: During the 13th and 12th century B.C., the acient Near Easterm and Aegean regions were in upheaval and decline. Many of the Canaanite city-states were effected during this period of turmoil and ultimately collapsed. This set the stage for the emergence of the Isaelites, whom some scholars believe were Canaanite commoners who rebelled from their elite oppressors and established their own society.

1279-1213 B.C. Reign of Pharoah Ramesses II: In the story of Exodus, the Bible mentions that the Hebrews were ordered to build two cities, Pithom and Ramesses (Exodus 1:11). The latter likely refers to the ancient city of Pi-Ramesse, built during the reign of its namesake, Pharoah Ramesses II, who ruled from 1279 until 1213 B.C. Because of this convergenes, scholars believe that if the Exodus occured, it would have taken place at some point during his reign.

 

[magnifier661]

1250 B.C. Destruction of Hazor: Archeologists have found evidence that Hazor, one of the great cities of Canaan, was destroyed during the 13th century B.C. Some experts believe that invading ancient Israelites perpetrated the destruction, as mentioned in the Bible (Joshua 10:10-13). But others think that the city's downfall was due to a strugge between the Canaanite ruiling elite and the lower class. Among the ruins at Hazor, excavators found desecrated statues, including a decapitated Canaanite god or king. Other evidence indicates that the elite palaces were already in poor condition at the time of violence, and a city in such decline would have been ripe for an internal rebellion. The rebellious Canaanite lower class, some scholars believe, headed for the hill country and eventually became the people called Israel.

1000 B.C. "Palace of David" the City of David: In 2005, while excavating one of the oldest areas of Jerusalem, known as the City of David, archeologists Eilat Mazar uncovered an enormous stone wall. Using pottery found at the site, Mazar dated the site to around 1000 B.C. Mazar believes that she has uncovered only a fraction of an ancient palace of King David.

 

[magnifier661]

http://www.bible-history.com

Here is another site that documents actual archeological findings of the Bible.

There are way too many findings to post of each, but they are

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

This is an except from Josh McDowell; whom is a university professor at the University of Uruguay

For centuries many of the world's distinguished philosophers have assaulted Christianity as being irrational, superstitious and absurd. Many have chosen simply to ignore the central issue of the resurrection. Others have tried to explain it away through various theories. But the historical evidence just can't be discounted.

A student at the University of Uruguay said to me. "Professor McDowell, why can't you refute Christianity?"

"For a very simple reason," I answered. "I am not able to explain away an event in history--the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

How can we explain the empty tomb? Can it possibly be accounted for by any natural cause?

A QUESTION OF HISTORY
After more than 700 hours of studying this subject, I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is either one of the most wicked, vicious, heartless hoaxes ever foisted on the minds of human beings--or it is the most remarkable fact of history.

Here are some of the facts relevant to the resurrection: Jesus of Nazareth, a Jewish prophet who claimed to be the Christ prophesied in the Jewish Scriptures, was arrested, was judged a political criminal, and was crucified. Three days after His death and burial, some women who went to His tomb found the body gone. In subsequent weeks, His disciples claimed that God had raised Him from the dead and that He appeared to them various times before ascending into heaven.

From that foundation, Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire and has continued to exert great influence down through the centuries.

 

[magnifier661]

IS THE NEW TESTAMENT RELIABLE?
Because the New Testament provides the primary historical source for information on the resurrection, many critics during the 19th century attacked the reliability of these biblical documents.

By the end of the 1 9th century, however, archaeological discoveries had confirmed the accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts. Discoveries of early papyri bridged the gap between the time of Christ and existing manuscripts from a later date.

Those findings increased scholarly confidence in the reliability of the Bible. William F. Albright, who in his day was the world's foremost biblical archaeologist, said: "We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80, two full generations before the date between 130 and 150 given by the more radical New Testament critics of today."

Coinciding with the papyri discoveries, an abundance of other manuscripts came to light (over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence today). The historian Luke wrote of "authentic evidence" concerning the resurrection. Sir William Ramsay, who spent 15 years attempting to undermine Luke credentials as a historian, and to refute the reliability of the New Testament, finally concluded: "Luke is a historian of the first rank . . . This author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians. "

I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .

E. M. Blaiklock
Professor of Classics
Auckland University

 

[magnifier661]

There exists no document from the ancient world, witnessed by so excellent a set of textual and historical testimonies . . . Skepticism regarding the historical credentials of Christianity is based upon an irrational bias.

Clark Pinnock
Mcmaster University

If the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt.

F. F. Bruce
Manchester University

For the New Testament of Acts, the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming. Any attempt to reject its basic historicity, even in matters of detail, must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted.
A. N. Sherwin-White
Classical Roman Historian

THE BODY STOLEN?
Then consider the theory that the body was stolen by the disciples while the guards slept. The depression and cowardice of the disciples provide a hard-hitting argument against their suddenly becoming so brave and daring as to face a detachment of soldiers at the tomb and steal the body. They were in no mood to attempt anything like that.

The theory that the Jewish or Roman authorities moved Christ's body is no more reasonable an explanation for the empty tomb than theft by the disciples. If the authorities had the body in their possession or knew where it was, why, when the disciples were preaching the resurrection in Jerusalem, didn't they explain: "Wait! We moved the body, see, He didn't rise from the grave"?

And if such a rebuttal failed, why didn't they explain exactly where Jesus' body lay? If this failed, why didn't they recover the corpse, put it on a cart, and wheel it through the center of Jerusalem? Such an action would have destroyed Christianity--not in the cradle, but in the womb!

THE RESURRECTION IS A FACT
Professor Thomas Arnold, for 14 years a headmaster of Rugby, author of the famous, History of Rome, and appointed to the chair of modern history at Oxford, was well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said: "I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead." Brooke Foss Westcott, an English scholar, said: "raking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of it."

But guys, everyone in this forum said that educated Historians and Scholars believe the Bible is innacurate?!?!?! What gives man?!

 

[crowTrobot]

But guys, everyone in this forum said that educated Historians and Scholars believe the Bible is innacurate?!?!?! What gives man?!

what gives is you lack the filter to be able to differentiate apologetics from objective conclusions. nothing personal

 

[magnifier661]

what gives is you lack the filter to be able to differentiate apologetics from objective conclusions. nothing personal

Of course! Lol

So Wikipedia; historians and scholars are wrong then?

You seem like the buddy with his friend trying to tell him his girl is cheating on him. You know; denying everything until he actually catches her in the act?

In fact I bet you didn't even read any of the links, posts and quotes. If you ignore will it just go away?

Nothing personal brother

 

[crowTrobot]

So Wikipedia; historians and scholars are wrong then?

some are more interested in selling books than doing objective work in their field. something you have to be on the lookout for.

that is true on both sides - someone selling a book claiming there is proof the man Jesus never existed would be equally as full of it as someone claiming the empty tomb proves the resurrection.

 

[magnifier661]

some are more interested in selling books than doing objective work in their field. something you have to be on the lookout for.

that is true on both sides - someone selling a book claiming there is proof the man Jesus never existed would be equally as full of it as someone claiming the empty tomb proves the resurrection.

Okay but why reference Dawkins those other times? He did his road shows for book sales and profit. I guess he's an exception right?

 

[crowTrobot]

Okay but why reference Dawkins those other times? He did his road shows for book sales and profit. I guess he's an exception right?

if you are referring to me i've never cited dawkins as an authority, and wouldn't on any topic other than evolutionary biology.

 

[magnifier661]

if you are referring to me i've never cited dawkins as an authority, and wouldn't on any topic other than evolutionary biology.

You referred to multiverse and the tornado and a 747 theory. The tornado is Dawkins and he adopted the multiverse theory.

 

[PapaG]

When I was 6 years old I got in trouble for telling my babysitters son that Santa was fake. The whole concept of belief, at least unquestioning belief, seems really wrong to me. Not that it's wrong for you ABM, to each his own, but for me it's hard to imagine.

My next door neighbors are LDS. When their 6 year-old son told my six year-old daughter that Santa didn't exist, my daughter fired back with "well God doesn't exist". No idea where she got that from, but the kid ran home crying from the cul de sac, and my wife and I had a conversation with our neighbors about it. They are really cool people, and thankfully neither kids has brought it up again in almost 2 years.

I don't believe, but I don't disbelieve, same with my wife, and we just choose to not talk about such things in front of the kids. I'm guessing my daughter just fired back with a verbal uppercut, because the neighbor kid was talking about God a lot then, but wow, the reaction was uncomfortable.

 

[PapaG]

if you are referring to me i've never cited dawkins as an authority, and wouldn't on any topic other than evolutionary biology.

Dawkins has let his hatred overwhelm his senses. He's a joke at this point, just as a Jerry Falwell is a joke, in my eyes.

There are so many logical holes in evolutionary biology that it is hard to consider anybody an "authority" on what is basically a belief of its own.

 

[crowTrobot]

You referred to multiverse and the tornado and a 747 theory. The tornado is Dawkins and he adopted the multiverse theory.

you must be thinking of somebody else, and dawkins has nothing to do with multiverse theories. he's a biologist not an astrophysicist.

 

[magnifier661]

you must be thinking of somebody else, and dawkins has nothing to do with multiverse theories. he's a biologist not an astrophysicist.

I said he adapted the theory and publicly said it. And you used the Dawkins theory of the 747

 

[crowTrobot]

I said he adapted the theory and publicly said it. And you used the Dawkins theory of the 747

sorry no recollection of what you are talking about.

also lots of skeptics have used anthropic arguments involving a multiverse as a counter to statistically-based ID arguments. If that's what you are referring to it's hardly original to Dawkins, and someone stating such an argument is in no way citing him as an authority.

 

[Denny Crane]

Link? I've never read this. You are usually on the ball with providing links to your statements. Funny how you aren't applying this rule to your current statement.

Also; there are thousands of historical events that took place in the bible. I hope you have a thousand page thread of you trying to discredit all of them.

They all don't need to be discredited. The veracity of a significant number of the stories is dubious at best. This makes it rather silly to take any of it as literally true.

 

[magnifier661]

They all don't need to be discredited. The veracity of a significant number of the stories is dubious at best. This makes it rather silly to take any of it as literally true.

Well the one you said was wrong was actually right. Lol!!!

 

[Denny Crane]

Well the one you said was wrong was actually right. Lol!!!

No it wasn't.

 

[magnifier661]

No it wasn't.

Actually it was. I provided many links that proved you wrong. You haven't proved anything but bullshit

 

[Denny Crane]

Actually it was. I provided many links that proved you wrong. You haven't proved anything but bullshit

You provided no such links. What you did show was that Jericho had its walls rebuilt - and they were rebuilt many times. None near the time of Joshua.

How about we pick an easy one. 6000 years is the wrong age of the earth, and the bible got the Big Bang wrong. That's page 1!

LOL

 

[ABM]

6000 years is the wrong age of the earth...

Based upon which conclusive test, Denny? Speculation, speculation. It's all speculation.

 

[Denny Crane]

Based upon which conclusive test, Denny? Speculation, speculation. It's all speculation.

The earth is certainly older than 6000 years. There were thriving civilizations that were around 6,000 years ago, including the egyptians and mesopotamians. There were thriving civilizations around 7000 years ago, plenty old enough to prove 6000 years is the wrong age of the earth.

 

[ABM]

The earth is certainly older than 6000 years. There were thriving civilizations that were around 6,000 years ago, including the egyptians and mesopotamians. There were thriving civilizations around 7000 years ago, plenty old enough to prove 6000 years is the wrong age of the earth.

Whatever you say, Denny.

 

[Denny Crane]

Whatever you say, Denny.

When, exactly, do you think the mesopotamian civilization existed?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

When, exactly, do you think the mesopotamian civilization existed?

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world the Mesopatamians existed.

 

[magnifier661]

You provided no such links. What you did show was that Jericho had its walls rebuilt - and they were rebuilt many times. None near the time of Joshua.

How about we pick an easy one. 6000 years is the wrong age of the earth, and the bible got the Big Bang wrong. That's page 1!

LOL

Oh and if you want the wiki answer, here it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho

Bronze age
Archaeological evidence indicates that in the latter half of the Middle Bronze Age (circa 1700 BC) the city enjoyed some prosperity, its walls having been strengthened and expanded.[21] According to carbon dating the Canaanite city (Jericho City IV) was destroyed between 1617 and 1530 BC.[22] The site remained uninhabited until the city was refounded in the 9th century BC.[citation needed]

Bullshit i didnt. I even used your beloved wikipedia and it gave the same timeline of the bible account. It even referenced the biblical account. So you want to change the subject on your clearly inaccurate statement about the age of he earth? Lol denny you are silly man!