What does this quote mean to you?

[cpawfan]

This is from Blaise Pascal's Provincial Letter 16, dated December 4, 1656

In his native tounge: "Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parceque je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte."

I don't speak French, but I found three different translations for it:

<ul>[*]I made this [letter] very long, because I did not have the leisure to make it shorter.[*]I have only made this letter rather long because I have not had time to make it shorter.[*]The present letter is a very long one, simply because I had no leisure to make it shorter.[/list]However, it is often remembered as one of the following:

<ul>[*]I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time.[*]I apologize that this letter is so long. I did not have the time to make it short[/list]
It is also worth noting that it is often erroneously reported to have been written by Mark Twain, Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson and others.


<span style="color:#ff0000">Now that the facts and history are out of the way, what does the quote "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time." mean to you?</span>

 

[AEM]

Since I enjoy driving things into the ground: sometimes concision takes considerably more time and effort to produce than simply including everything at length as may be useful.

That said, I think Pascal was being wry. The syntax in the original is a bit weird though... maybe my French is just really rusty?

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Since I enjoy driving things into the ground: sometimes concision takes considerably more time and effort to produce than simply including everything at length as may be useful.

That said, I think Pascal was being wry. The syntax in the original is a bit weird though... maybe my French is just really rusty?</div>

Do you share that sentiment? That is actually more difficult to get your point across in just a few words.

 

[GMJ]

I think that it takes a certain appreciation for language to express yourself as efficiently as possible; to say only what is relevant. I think it requires an attention to detail and sentence composition that, for most conversations we find ourselves in, are not absolutely necessary; so why bother?

 

[cpawfan]

Conversational speech is always going to be different from written prose

There is also the modern day extreme side to this, the text message speak

 

[AEM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Since I enjoy driving things into the ground: sometimes concision takes considerably more time and effort to produce than simply including everything at length as may be useful.

That said, I think Pascal was being wry. The syntax in the original is a bit weird though... maybe my French is just really rusty?</div>

Do you share that sentiment? That is actually more difficult to get your point across in just a few words.
</div>

Actually, no. I'm a concise writer by nature, and find it annoying to expand. Minimum page counts aggravate me for that reason.

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Since I enjoy driving things into the ground: sometimes concision takes considerably more time and effort to produce than simply including everything at length as may be useful.

That said, I think Pascal was being wry. The syntax in the original is a bit weird though... maybe my French is just really rusty?</div>

Do you share that sentiment? That is actually more difficult to get your point across in just a few words.
</div>

Actually, no. I'm a concise writer by nature, and find it annoying to expand. Minimum page counts aggravate me for that reason.
</div>

Well there is certainly a tipping point where each person finishes what they are saying and in times of artificial limits, they may not meet the minimum. However, I'm willing to bet that even when you write something in your natural concise style that revision would allow you to hone the verbosity down even further.

 

[AEM]

While it's a possibility, it's exceedingly rare - and usually more an example of added redundancy

 

[GMJ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Conversational speech is always going to be different from written prose

There is also the modern day extreme side to this, the text message speak</div>

True, although personally I've started to hold my casual speech to the standard of formally written text.

 

[speeds]

AEM's got it.

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>While it's a possibility, it's exceedingly rare - and usually more an example of added redundancy

</div>

Ok, now taking yourself out of the equation, do you share that sentiment for the general population regarding their writing?

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Jan 3 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Conversational speech is always going to be different from written prose

There is also the modern day extreme side to this, the text message speak</div>

True, although personally I've started to hold my casual speech to the standard of formally written text.
</div>

Do you find some people that become overly impressed if you are verbose?

 

[MikeDC]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Since I enjoy driving things into the ground: sometimes concision takes considerably more time and effort to produce than simply including everything at length as may be useful.

That said, I think Pascal was being wry. The syntax in the original is a bit weird though... maybe my French is just really rusty?</div>

Do you share that sentiment? That is actually more difficult to get your point across in just a few words.
</div>

Actually, no. I'm a concise writer by nature, and find it annoying to expand. Minimum page counts aggravate me for that reason.
</div>

I'm the opposite, so I know exactly what Pascal was getting at. When I have the time and inclination, I can usually go through and cut out 15-20% of a paper and make it nicer.

I find that's the more common issue. I'm giving my students this semester my typical writing assignment: a short paper that will be marked down severely for going over the suggested length of 3 pages.

 

[Kid Chocolate]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Jan 3 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Conversational speech is always going to be different from written prose

There is also the modern day extreme side to this, the text message speak</div>

True, although personally I've started to hold my casual speech to the standard of formally written text.
</div>


See, I find myself holding an opposite view, that your writing should reflect more of a casual speech, although I'm guilty of not adhering to it a lot of the time. Then again, I find that I'm able to use a better vocabulary than a lot of people, so my writing doesn't come out looking like poop if I do this.

 

[AEM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>While it's a possibility, it's exceedingly rare - and usually more an example of added redundancy

</div>

Ok, now taking yourself out of the equation, do you share that sentiment for the general population regarding their writing?
</div>

Off-hand, I think so. When I ran the college newspaper, for instance, a fair number of articles had to be trimmed, and though I left most of it to the copy editors, I do recall that being the case.

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Jan 3 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>While it's a possibility, it's exceedingly rare - and usually more an example of added redundancy

</div>

Ok, now taking yourself out of the equation, do you share that sentiment for the general population regarding their writing?
</div>

Off-hand, I think so. When I ran the college newspaper, for instance, a fair number of articles had to be trimmed, and though I left most of it to the copy editors, I do recall that being the case.
</div>

I'm of the opinion that the majority of people are naturally verbose when forced to write and that because of this, are more impressed with voluminous documents than concise documents.

 

[AEM]

That makes sense. Lord knows it has cost me in more than one instance.

And to think, the longest-serving current Constitution is but a few pages long...

 

[Dumpy]

As someone who writes some highly technical documents quite often as part of my job (and for which ambiguity could cause some serious mischief), I can confirm that it is difficult to be simultaneously concise, clear, unambiguous, while containing the necessary detail to convey complex ideas. It is true that in some cases verbosity equates to laziness. Now don't ask me what i think of the "Harry Potter" series.

 

[GMJ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Jan 3 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Conversational speech is always going to be different from written prose

There is also the modern day extreme side to this, the text message speak</div>

True, although personally I've started to hold my casual speech to the standard of formally written text.
</div>

Do you find some people that become overly impressed if you are verbose?
</div>

ha, well more often than not they find it annoying; thinking that I'm trying too hard to be pretentious or arrogant. That's a fair complaint, but I don't let it influence me that much. The way that I carry myself is largely self serving, and based on expectations that are contingent on my own values. I also feel that this thinking is influenced by my understanding of social psychology and self-presentation, but thats another story.

 

[zєяσ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Jan 3 2008, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As someone who writes some highly technical documents quite often as part of my job (and for which ambiguity could cause some serious mischief), I can confirm that it is difficult to be simultaneously concise, clear, unambiguous, while containing the necessary detail to convey complex ideas. It is true that in some cases verbosity equates to laziness. Now don't ask me what i think of the "Harry Potter" series.</div>
What do you think of the Harry Potter series?

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Jan 3 2008, 06:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Jan 3 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 3 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Conversational speech is always going to be different from written prose

There is also the modern day extreme side to this, the text message speak</div>

True, although personally I've started to hold my casual speech to the standard of formally written text.
</div>

Do you find some people that become overly impressed if you are verbose?
</div>

ha, well more often than not they find it annoying; thinking that I'm trying too hard to be pretentious or arrogant. That's a fair complaint, but I don't let it influence me that much. The way that I carry myself is largely self serving, and based on expectations that are contingent on my own values. I also feel that this thinking is influenced by my understanding of social psychology and self-presentation, but thats another story.
</div>

to a large degree such preferences a re a result of brain type. "E"s tend to talk while they think, and therefore will be more verbose while they figure out what they want to say. "I"s, on the other hand, prefer to think an answer through internally before articulating it, and therefore will tend towards brevity. As an extreme "I", one thing I find annoying is when I pause in the middle of a thought, trying to think through the rest of a response or answer, and have someone else try to finish my thought for me, or interrupt because they think I'm finished talking. Most "E"s, unfortunately, think everyone else is an "E" also, or should be, and react accordingly. Also, "I"s will often only talk when they have something important to say, while "E"s are likely to talk for hours about the weather. I know CPaw and Jigga know what I'm referring to, but if you are confused, google "Myers-Briggs."

 

[cpawfan]

Bump, it has been a while

 

[GMJ]

I'll be honest, I'm not familiar with Myers-Briggs. It sounds like something I'll get to in my studies though.

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Jan 3 2008, 07:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Jan 3 2008, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As someone who writes some highly technical documents quite often as part of my job (and for which ambiguity could cause some serious mischief), I can confirm that it is difficult to be simultaneously concise, clear, unambiguous, while containing the necessary detail to convey complex ideas. It is true that in some cases verbosity equates to laziness. Now don't ask me what i think of the "Harry Potter" series.</div>
What do you think of the Harry Potter series?

</div>

 

[ghoti]

We have discussed this for a long time now. One thing we found is that the great majority of people who post on these forums are "I"s. Even people who gave the cursory impression of being an "E" turned out to be "I"s.

 

[ghoti]

Jigga, there is no reason you can't use casual speech and still communicate in a concise and focused manner. The difficult part is determining exactly what you want to say.

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ May 24 2008, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>We have discussed this for a long time now. One thing we found is that the great majority of people who post on these forums are "I"s. Even people who gave the cursory impression of being an "E" turned out to be "I"s.</div>

Some people call me "E", but I'm an "I".

 

[GMJ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ May 24 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jigga, there is no reason you can't use casual speech and still communicate in a concise and focused manner. The difficult part is determining exactly what you want to say.</div>

Sure is. My M.O is to cut out the all-too-familiar "blah blah blah" seen in a conversation (or more frequently, a post!). I've found that my preferred way to achieve this is to use more advanced words that have the chance to encompass the exact emotion, content, and meaning of what I'm trying to communicate . On the other hand it's just disappointing to see people who achieve superfluous speech and aimless bantering by going too far.

At that point it's hard to take them seriously, and I interpret this as a reflection of some sort of over-compensation (hooray being a psych-major!)