OT What has really been going on with Markelle Fultz?

[bodyman5000 and 1]

In spite of all your neat math up there, he is averaging ......10/7/7/2
I'll take that every game from my 19 year old rookie PG who can't shoot.

Stupid math

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

WTF IS THIS ABOMINATION.

Does he think he's playing volleyball?

His arms look so skinny maybe he thinks it is a medicine ball and he wants to work both arms equally.

 

[Boob-No-More]

In spite of all your neat math up there, he is averaging ......10/7/7/2
I'll take that every game from my 19 year old rookie PG who can't shoot.

Will you still take it when he's a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th year player who still can't shoot? When does actually putting the ball in the basket start to matter? Keep in mind, he's not just shooting "poorly", he is having the worst shooting season in the entire 70+ year history of the NBA and it's not even close. He needs to shoot way better just to be a bad shooter instead of the WORSE shooter EVER.

P.S. He's not 19. He turned 20 in October. He's actually older than Zach Collins.

BNM

 

[THE HCP]

Will you still take it when he's a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th year player who still can't shoot? When does actually putting the ball in the basket start to matter? Keep in mind, he's not just shooting "poorly", he is having the worst shooting season in the entire 70+ year history of the NBA and it's not even close. He needs to shoot way better just to be a bad shooter instead of the WORSE shooter EVER.

BNM

But everybody knew he couldn't shoot. Not a surprise to anybody. That poorly, no. He was drafted for his court vision and passing skills if you ask me, and he has shown he has both. Of course he will be judged differently after 4 years. Shit, he was playing with HS kids just 13 months ago. I believe he will get better, can't get worse according to your math.

 

[Boob-No-More]

But everybody knew he couldn't shoot. Not a surprise to anybody. That poorly, no. He was drafted for his court vision and passing skills if you ask me, and he has shown he has both. Of course he will be judged differently after 4 years. Shit, he was playing with HS kids just 13 months ago. I believe he will get better, can't get worse according to your math.

He will need to completely overhaul his shooting form to ever hope to even be an average shooter. Has it ever been done? I can't think of anybody who improved their shooting as much as he needs to after they entered the NBA.

Sure, guys like Gary Payton and Magic Johnson improved their shooting over the course of their careers, but they were never nearly as bad as Lonzo and didn't have anything close to that broken ass shooting form.

BNM

 

[THE HCP]

He will need to completely overhaul his shooting form to ever hope to even be an average shooter. Has it ever been done? I can't think of anybody who improved their shooting as much as he needs to after they entered the NBA.

Sure, guys like Gary Payton and Magic Johnson improved their shooting over the course of their careers, but they were never nearly as bad as Lonzo and didn't have anything close to that broken ass shooting form.

BNM

Agreed. Now look past that and not many rookie PGs (especially those playing in the "Era of the PG") put up numbers like him their rookie year. Don't you think his averages were impressive? ESPECIALLY when he can't shoot. I feel the same way about Simmons in Philly. They had tremendous rookie years even thought they CAN'T shoot.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Agreed. Now look past that and not many rookie PGs (especially those playing in the "Era of the PG") put up numbers like him their rookie year. Don't you think his averages were impressive? ESPECIALLY when he can't shoot. I feel the same way about Simmons in Philly. They had tremendous rookie years even thought they CAN'T shoot.

Infinitely more impressed with Simmons. He can't shoot the 3 (yet) but he's shooting .538 FG%. That's a damn good FG% for anyone, especially a rookie.

I seem to recall you were also high on Kendall Marshall and wanted us to draft him. His second year in the league (ironically playing for the Lakers) he averaged 8.0 points and 8.8 assists per game. Granted he wasn't the rebounder Lonzo is, but he shot better (.406/.399/.528). Two years later, he was out of the league.

I'm not saying Lonzo will be out of the league in two years, but I see his upside being somewhere between Kendall Marshall and Ricky Rubio. He may hang around the league for a long time, like Rubio has, but he'll never be the superstar his dad hopes he will be.

BNM

 

[H.C.]

Infinitely more impressed with Simmons. He can't shoot the 3 (yet) but he's shooting .538 FG%. That's a damn good FG% for anyone, especially a rookie.

I seem to recall you were also high on Kendall Marshall and wanted us to draft him. His second year in the league (ironically playing for the Lakers) he averaged 8.0 points and 8.8 assists per game. Granted he wasn't the rebounder Lonzo is, but he shot better (.406/.399/.528). Two years later, he was out of the league.

I'm not saying Lonzo will be out of the league in two years, but I see his upside being somewhere between Kendall Marshall and Ricky Rubio. He may hang around the league for a long time, like Rubio has, but he'll never be the superstar his dad hopes he will be.

BNM

Unless he fixes his form. Lonzo Ball will never live up to the #2 overall pick.
He can put up solid numbers and be a role player, even a good starter. But that's as far as it goes.

 

[BonesJones]

In spite of all your neat math up there, he is averaging ......10/7/7/2
I'll take that every game from my 19 year old rookie PG who can't shoot.

How is 7 assists per game in over 30 minutes impressive for a pass-first PG in an up-tempo offensive scheme? It's not.

Yay, he gets 7 rebounds a game compared to the typical 4. So meaningful.

 

[H.C.]

@HCP
Cool, he's averaging 10ppg, 7 rbs, 7 assists, 2.7 turnovers and 1.7 steals per.
How does that stack up to the rest of the Western conference playoff team PG's?
If the Lakers are unable to add a bonafied superstar this off-season. What are their projections with having a bottom 10 pg in the West?
Certainly playoffs are off the table.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Unless he fixes his form. Lonzo Ball will never live up to the #2 overall pick.
He can put up solid numbers and be a role player, even a good starter. But that's as far as it goes.

Has there ever been a star in this league who couldn't shoot? The closest I can think of are guys like Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo and Dennis Rodman. All three were multiple DPOYs and led the league in rebounding multiple times. They also had the luxury of playing on teams that didn't need them to score.

Of course, none of them were guards. In today's NBA, placing the ball in the hands of a guy who can't shoot, with the game on the line, is the kiss of death. Rubio is finally playing on a winning team because UTA can put the ball in Mitchell's hands with the game on the line, but it's Mitchell who is the star, not Rubio. He is what he's always been - a role player.

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

Has there ever been a star in this league who couldn't shoot? The closest I can think of are guys like Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo and Dennis Rodman. All three were multiple DPOYs and led the league in rebounding multiple times. They also had the luxury of playing on teams that didn't need them to score.

Of course, none of them were guards. In today's NBA, placing the ball in the hands of a guy who can't shoot, with the game on the line, is the kiss of death. Rubio is finally playing on a winning team because UTA can put the ball in Mitchell's hands with the game on the line, but it's Mitchell who is the star, not Rubio. He is what he's always been - a role player.

BNM

One could say Rondo, but he had a SG who has the NBA record for 3s made, one of the best scoring SFs of all time, and one of the best all-around PFs of all-time. Before Kingspeed comes in and points it out, I was in late middle school to early high school. But I watched more basketball then than I do now.

Anyway, after he lost those guys he fell off hard, and became the role player we all know today.

 

[H.C.]

Has there ever been a star in this league who couldn't shoot? The closest I can think of are guys like Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo and Dennis Rodman. All three were multiple DPOYs and led the league in rebounding multiple times. They also had the luxury of playing on teams that didn't need them to score.

Of course, none of them were guards. In today's NBA, placing the ball in the hands of a guy who can't shoot, with the game on the line, is the kiss of death. Rubio is finally playing on a winning team because UTA can put the ball in Mitchell's hands with the game on the line, but it's Mitchell who is the star, not Rubio. He is what he's always been - a role player.

BNM

Jason Kidd was never a great shooter when he was with the Nets. 40/25
However he did have Jefferson, Martin, Carter, etc.
Players who were young and healthy. Or Carter who if you switch him with Kobe there prolly isn't a dropoff in terms of career.
But Kidd could play some defense so...

 

[Boob-No-More]

One could say Rondo, but he had a SG who has the NBA record for 3s made, one of the best scoring SFs of all time, and one of the best all-around PFs of all-time. Before Kingspeed comes in and points it out, I was in late middle school to early high school. But I watched more basketball then than I do now.

Anyway, after he lost those guys he fell off hard, and became the role player we all know today.

Even then he wasn't a superstar. He was always the 4th best player on his team. Maybe that's Lonzo's upside, but that depends on LAL getting 3 other actual stars - something I hope never happens in my lifetime.

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

Even then he wasn't a superstar. He was always the 4th best player on his team. Maybe that's Lonzo's upside, but that depends on LAL getting 3 other actual stars - something I hope never happens in my lifetime.

BNM

Something that won't happen after Julius Randle gets $20M a year.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Jason Kidd was never a great shooter when he was with the Nets. 40/25
However he did have Jefferson, Martin, Carter, etc.
Players who were young and healthy. Or Carter who if you switch him with Kobe there prolly isn't a dropoff in terms of career.
But Kidd could play some defense so...

Kidd's two most successful years in NJ (the two times he led them to the finals), he shot .391/.321/.814 TS% = .484 and .414/.341/.841 TS% = .526 and was 1st and 2nd team all defense. Not great shooting, especially in 2001-02, but still a lot better than .352/.302/.449 TS% = .436, but that was peak Kidd compared to rookie Ball.

Those were Kidd's most successful years, but his best shooting years came later in DAL where he basically became a catch and shoot 3-point specialist - a role player.

Kidd's form was never nearly as broken as Ball's. So, it will be interesting to see if he ever becomes as "good" at shooting as Kidd was. He may match him in REB and AST, but I don't think he'll ever be the defender Kidd was (9 times first or second team all defense).

BNM

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

You guys think these kids playing from probably 3 years old is the reason their form is so ugly? They started shooting like that because they were not strong enough?

My shot looks like Ray Allen in comparison.

 

[H.C.]

You guys think these kids playing from probably 3 years old is the reason their form is so ugly? They started shooting like that because they were not strong enough?

My shot looks like Ray Allen in comparison.

Youngest ball brother yes.
Aminu's form, yes.
There is even dominate hand side of the head form which happens.

But idk where Lonzo's ball's form came from. To shoot across your face & blocking your vision.
I just don't see how that helps a young kid get the ball to the hoop.

Thompson grew up with a ball in his hands, he doesn't have a broken ass form.

 

[THE HCP]

Youngest ball brother yes.
Aminu's form, yes.
There is even dominate hand side of the head form which happens.

But idk where Lonzo's ball's form came from. To shoot across your face & blocking your vision.
I just don't see how that helps a young kid get the ball to the hoop.

Thompson grew up with a ball in his hands, he doesn't have a broken ass form.

I remember seeing Jamal Wilkes waaaaaaaay back in the day and was blown away at how he shot the ball.

 

[THE HCP]

 

[Boob-No-More]

Aminu's shooting form always reminds me of one of these ball throwing sticks for dogs:



But even it looks better than that FT by Wilkes.

BNM

 

[THE HCP]

Aminu's shooting form always reminds me of one of these ball throwing sticks for dogs:



But even it looks better than that FT by Wilkes.

BNM

God my dogs love those things!

 

[THE HCP]

The orange Ultra Ball is the only ball I can get my dog. He will tear the regular ones to shreds, but those last forever, indestructible.

 

[handiman]

I hate to partake in a Ball debate, but two things:

1) His broken shot was fairly effective in college. Can't make too much of rookie shooting struggles.

2) Shawn Marion's shot was every bit as broken, and it didn't hold him back.

 

[hoopsjock]

I hate to partake in a Ball debate, but two things:

1) His broken shot was fairly effective in college. Can't make too much of rookie shooting struggles.

2) Shawn Marion's shot was every bit as broken, and it didn't hold him back.

Marion had a super quick release though. Ugly for sure but the problem with Ball's form is it takes to long to bring the ball up from the side and across his body. It's even worse when he rushes it.

 

[handiman]

Marion had a super quick release though. Ugly for sure but the problem with Ball's form is it takes to long to bring the ball up from the side and across his body. It's even worse when he rushes it.

Bill Cartwright's shot required a sun dial to time it. Sabonis and Meyers weren't speed demons, but I don't recall ever seeing one of their 3's get blocked. If you've got the length, a slow setup isn't the worst thing in the world.

 

[hoopsjock]

Bill Cartwright's shot required a sun dial to time it. Sabonis and Meyers weren't speed demons, but I don't recall ever seeing one of their 3's get blocked. If you've got the length, a slow setup isn't the worst thing in the world.

Those were all big men. It's different for a guard or wing who would have a quicker defender on them.

 

[THE HCP]

I think Ball will be in this league for a long time. That is all.

 

[Sarni]

I also think Lonzo is a good player and will do well in the league without being a superstar but I don't like those comparisons to past stars to show that a rookie is not doing badly, just because another player who went on to become amazing had doubtful stats during his rookie season (Kidd's FG% and 3pt shooting).

 

[handiman]

Those were all big men. It's different for a guard or wing who would have a quicker defender on them.

Length is what generally affects a shot, not speed. Ball has enough length to counter most defenders.

I used those examples because they had height advantages and slow mechanics.