Politics What if it turns out the other side was right?

[MarAzul]

And I am asking how is Obama not?

I will give you one more hint.

Prior to Obama, the last American President that was once a British subject, was Andrew Jackson. Jackson was a British subject from his birth in 1767 in the British territory of South Carolina. Of course his Presidency was legal since the Constitution exempted him and his generation of the requirement to be a Natural born citizen.

 

[Chris Craig]

I will give you one more hint.

Prior to Obama, the last American President that was once a British subject, was Andrew Jackson. Jackson was a British subject from his birth in 1767 in the British territory of South Carolina. Of course his Presidency was legal since the Constitution exempted him and his generation of the requirement to be a Natural born citizen.

I believe I have already touched on it. The founding fathers having come from England were influenced by its laws. In England to be considered a subject your father must have been a citizen and resided in the country. Thus a natural born citizen must therefore have a father who was/is a citizen and therfore subject to the United States

 

[MARIS61]

Those dudes said that because he was black. Seriously.

Obama was revered overseas. The most people ever voted for him. Ever.

No, my white friends, you were not "embarrassed" by Obama...

Had nothing to do with race. But I'm never embarrassed by the actions of others. That's on them.

I voted for him, thought he'd kick some ass but he kissed it instead. That's why he was "revered" by them, although I'd call it something else.

Admittedly, I still voted for him the second time as I hoped he'd change after he didn't need to run anymore.

 

[MarAzul]

Please enlighten me.

Official Noaa chart 18523

Oh darn! I didn't do the snap right. Just to East of Jim Crow Pt, is Jim Crow Creek.
All three places are named in honor of an early Oregon resident, Jim Crow.

 

[MARIS61]

Yes, but it's been a long time.

I've been listening to groups like Christopher Cross and Chicago lately.

Working through the old record crates alphabetically?

 

[MARIS61]

Real question:

What reasons do conservatives give a person like me to vote for them?

Truly.

They're against police reform.
They're against healthcare for all.
They're against prison reform.
They're against firearm safety laws.
They're against minimum wage.
They're against tuition free higher learning.
They're against food stamps.

And they're pro war. Pro oil.
Anti climate change.

And yes.

Conservatives are the ones mad at Kaepernick.
Conservatives are the ones waving the stars and bars.
Conservatives fought for Jim Crow and against civil rights.
Conservatives want to force women to have the babies of their rapists (I challenge any of you to prove this wrong).
Conservatives (less and less of y'all) support an obvious racist in the white house.

Why in HELL should I ever vote for a conservative? Please enlighten me.

You're painting with a pretty broad brush there. I've never met anyone who held all those views.

Nor have I met anyone who was "against" any of those things. They just don't want to have their wages garnished by the government so other people can get those things "free".

Nobody is pro-war. Strong on National Defense, yes.

Nobody is pro-oil. The second you bring me a direct-solar-powered full-size SUV that can duplicate all performance stats of a gas-powered one at the same price and I'm in.

Anti climate change? Not me, I'm Pro climate change in a big way.

Climate change is a natural, constantly-occurring action that all life on Earth depends on.

If it ever stops changing we're dead.

 

[MarAzul]

I believe I have already touched on it. The founding fathers having come from England were influenced by its laws. In England to be considered a subject your father must have been a citizen and resided in the country. Thus a natural born citizen must therefore have a father who was/is a citizen and therfore subject to the United States

Yes, the Brits did fashion their law this way, including the right of decent. That is children of a citizen may happen to be born abroad but they are British Citizen non the less. In Natural law it is defined a little more tightly..

As such, George Romney was born in Mexico, but he was deemed to be a Natural Born Citizen because his parents were US citizens,
completely consistent with Natural Law. Same with John McCain being born in Panama.

Where as Obama's birth certificate clearly shows his father is Kenyan. In 1961 Kenya was a British Territory, and therefore a he was a Kenyan, a British Citizen by right of decent, consist with both British and Natural Law. By virtue of the 14th amendment he is also a US citizen, but not Natural Born Citizen.

Natural Law page 212 Book 1

"Citizens and natives.

The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority,
they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country,
of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens,
those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this,
in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society,
reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children;
and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion,
they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country,
it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner,
it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country."

 

[barfo]

Yes, the Brits did fashion their law this way, including the right of decent. That is children of a citizen may happen to be born abroad but they are British Citizen non the less. In Natural law it is defined a little more tightly..

As such, George Romney was born in Mexico, but he was deemed to be a Natural Born Citizen because his parents were US citizens,
completely consistent with Natural Law. Same with John McCain being born in Panama.

Where as Obama's birth certificate clearly shows his father is Kenyan. In 1961 Kenya was a British Territory, and therefore a he was a Kenyan, a British Citizen by right of decent, consist with both British and Natural Law. By virtue of the 14th amendment he is also a US citizen, but not Natural Born Citizen.

Natural Law page 212 Book 1

"Citizens and natives.

The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority,
they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country,
of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens,
those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this,
in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society,
reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children;
and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion,
they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country,
it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner,
it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country."

We've gone round on this subject many times already, so I'll only point out that even if you were right, it doesn't matter.
Obama already served as president, twice. Anyone in a similar situation who comes along will be likewise allowed to serve.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

We've gone round on this subject many times already, so I'll only point out that even if you were right, it doesn't matter.
Obama already served as president, twice. Anyone in a similar situation who comes along will be likewise allowed to serve.

barfo

No, I'm pretty sure 2 terms is the limit.

 

[Chris Craig]

Yes, the Brits did fashion their law this way, including the right of decent. That is children of a citizen may happen to be born abroad but they are British Citizen non the less. In Natural law it is defined a little more tightly..

As such, George Romney was born in Mexico, but he was deemed to be a Natural Born Citizen because his parents were US citizens,
completely consistent with Natural Law. Same with John McCain being born in Panama.

Where as Obama's birth certificate clearly shows his father is Kenyan. In 1961 Kenya was a British Territory, and therefore a he was a Kenyan, a British Citizen by right of decent, consist with both British and Natural Law. By virtue of the 14th amendment he is also a US citizen, but not Natural Born Citizen.

Natural Law page 212 Book 1

"Citizens and natives.

The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority,
they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country,
of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens,
those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this,
in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society,
reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children;
and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion,
they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country,
it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner,
it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country."

Hmm. Perhaps this interpretation is what the founders anticipated. Perhaps not. When was that book written? Is it not strange that a group of men who had eacaped rule under a monarchy and way of life, only to adopt it once more?

The supreme court has never precisely made a ruling on the definition of Natural Born Citizen, but the government as taken to interpret as merely someone born on US soil regardless of parentage. It is also a very outdated concept since women now have rights and are no longer objects belonging to their husbands.

The supreme court did rule on the citizenship of a man whose parents were born in China, yet he was born here.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/169/649/

He didn't run for office or anything but still.

Yet, I do understand why it would have been intended that way. 1. They wouldn't want England to send over pregnant women to have kids who could be raised to become the president and then England could take control of America. 2.) Back then as I mentioned above women were objects then. They belonged to their husbands.

 

[MarAzul]

We've gone round on this subject many times already, so I'll only point out that even if you were right, it doesn't matter.
Obama already served as president, twice. Anyone in a similar situation who comes along will be likewise allowed to serve.

barfo

Oh I seriously doubt you guys would let a white man skate through unchallenged. Georgy Romney was challenged, as was John McCain and Ted Cruz. Congress found all three to be Natural Born Citizens. Only Obama escaped the challenge. Odd that!

 

[MarAzul]

as merely someone born on US soil regardless of parentage. It is also a very outdated concept since women now have rights and are no longer objects belonging to their husbands.

This is true. Perhaps it does need to be modified. That should be by Amendment, not by ignoring the stated requirement.
I happen to think the intent was to avoid exactly what we got when he went on his apology tour. That a few other Anti American
actions.

 

[Chris Craig]

This is true. Perhaps it does need to be modified. That should be by Amendment, not by ignoring the stated requirement.
I happen to think the intent was to avoid exactly what we got when he went on his apology tour. That a few other Anti American
actions.

Hey, we aren't living in the United States of Kenya

 

[MarAzul]

They wouldn't want England to send over pregnant women to have kids who could be raised to become the president and then England could take control of America.

Or just send over a wealth guy to knock up an American woman. Then raise the kid, educate him to become President.
Sort of what we got, heh?

 

[Chris Craig]

Or just send over a wealth guy to knock up an American woman. Then raise the kid, educate him to become President.
Sort of what we got, heh?

No not at all. Obama was loyal to the United States. He was born here and represented us well.

 

[MarAzul]

No not at all. Obama was loyal to the United States. He was born here and represented us well.

The key to happiness is liking what you get, not what you want.

You were happy.
Now I am.

 

[Chris Craig]

The key to happiness is liking what you get, not what you want.

You were happy.
Now I am.

Touche

 

[barfo]

Oh I seriously doubt you guys would let a white man skate through unchallenged. Georgy Romney was challenged, as was John McCain and Ted Cruz. Congress found all three to be Natural Born Citizens. Only Obama escaped the challenge. Odd that!

Guess conservatives were really asleep at the switch then, weren't they?

Must be galling to know that none of them was smart enough to read the constitution until after Obama was sworn in?

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

Guess conservatives were really asleep at the switch then, weren't they?
Must be galling to know that none of them...

True.

 

[dviss1]

You're painting with a pretty broad brush there. I've never met anyone who held all those views.

Nor have I met anyone who was "against" any of those things. They just don't want to have their wages garnished by the government so other people can get those things "free".

Nobody is pro-war. Strong on National Defense, yes.

Nobody is pro-oil. The second you bring me a direct-solar-powered full-size SUV that can duplicate all performance stats of a gas-powered one at the same price and I'm in.

Anti climate change? Not me, I'm Pro climate change in a big way.

Climate change is a natural, constantly-occurring action that all life on Earth depends on.

If it ever stops changing we're dead.

1. No one's pro oil??? "Drill baby drill" was less than a decade ago.

2. Coincidentally, so was "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran".

3. You know much more than 99% of the scientists in the planet. We should listen to you....

 

[PtldPlatypus]

1. No one's pro oil??? "Drill baby drill" was less than a decade ago.

I never interpreted that as being "Oil is the best!!", so much as, "Better to produce our oil domestically than to import it from OPEC".

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

This thread is a good representation of what each side will do if the other side is wrong. Change the talking point to something else they disagree on so they can argue about it. It's actually kind of fascinating, every "scandal" and every bit of dirt comes up and people say those things don't stick, they do but the next day it's old news as each side runs back to the drawing board of things they can insult the other one for.

I hope I teach my kids that when they're wrong, to admit it, to not run back to the drawing board to find ways to attack who ever called them out for being wrong.

 

[CupWizier]

I never interpreted that as being "Oil is the best!!", so much as, "Better to produce our oil domestically than to import it from OPEC".

Maybe you have forgotten that Trump has plans to do off shore drilling along our coast lines. It's nice to become more self suffecient but at what environmental costs. Imagine going to Canon Beach and seeing oil rigs.

 

[CupWizier]

Oh I seriously doubt you guys would let a white man skate through unchallenged. Georgy Romney was challenged, as was John McCain and Ted Cruz. Congress found all three to be Natural Born Citizens. Only Obama escaped the challenge. Odd that!

Why bring color into it. Try looking at people as individuals rather than as a color. I do.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Maybe you have forgotten that Trump has plans to do off shore drilling along our coast lines. It's nice to become more self suffecient but at what environmental costs. Imagine going to Canon Beach and seeing oil rigs.

O...K...

I was just talking about the genesis of the slogan from 10 years ago, but...sure.

 

[Hoopguru]

If they found him innocent, is accept the findings and work toward 2020.

yes sir 100% good guidence!

 

[Hoopguru]

I would think Trump had enough plausible deniability to get away with it. He is far from an innocent bystander. Trump has hidden behind other people his whole life, forcing them to take the blame for him, using them like human shields. He has never known accountability.

He should have been sent to prison for Trump University. Anyone else would have been. Not to mention all the other shit he has gotten away with.

Beyond his crimes, the language he uses is despicable. He is a terrible representative of our country. He has embarassed us at alk levels. We are a joke to our allies and enemies. Regardless of the findings of the investigation, he is a terrible president. Far from the best.

Im thinking he won't run again. But he will wait tell the last minute to announce. Hillary will too.

 

[Shaboid]

What if I don't have a side?

 

[dviss1]

yes sir 100% good guidence!

Sure, but what if they find him guilty?

What's your side gonna do?

I believe they'll do the exact opposite.

 

[dviss1]

What if I don't have a side?

You either believe the president committed treason or that he didn't.