What if we bench Yi, and start boone at pf instead....

[YiOF]

the stupid fouls and inability to draw fouls have nothing to do with his potential. How can a PF get a total of one OR over a four-game span? It is pathetic.

Offensive rebound is really related to his foul trouble, he can't be as aggressive going after OR after picking up early fouls to avoid more fouls. and also when he's playing outside, it's hard to run in to get position, but once he's in foul trouble, he doesn't even bother go in at all.

 

[kobimel]

A good role player has the ability to score without having plays run through him. Yi is not the star of this team. Plays should not be run through him. As a role player he needs to find a way to score without having plays run through him.

 

[YiOF]

A good role player has the ability to score without having plays run through him. Yi is not the star of this team. Plays should not be run through him. As a role player he needs to find a way to score without having plays run through him.

Like 3-4 more ppg per game? or more consistent? I am not saying there should be plays for him every other possession. 3 or 4 set plays for him shouldn't be too much for him. especially for player developing purposes.

 

[kobimel]

Like 3-4 more ppg per game? or more consistent?

His average is fine. 10.6 ppg is good for a 3rd or 4th option when your top two options are averaging nearly 50 ppg.

I'm definitely looking for more consistency from him, though. Carter and Harris can't win a game singlehandedly. They need help. Consistent help. They need the role players to show that they can be depended on to hit the open shot after a drive and kick out. Stuff like that. The more consistent Yi will be, the more shots he'll get because his teammates will trust him more.

 

[YiOF]

His average is fine. 10.6 ppg is good for a 3rd or 4th option when your top two options are averaging nearly 50 ppg.

I'm definitely looking for more consistency from him, though. Carter and Harris can't win a game singlehandedly. They need help. Consistent help. They need the role players to show that they can be depended on to hit the open shot after a drive and kick out. Stuff like that. The more consistent Yi will be, the more shots he'll get because his teammates will trust him more.

why don't Yi get the oppotunity to do some Isolations in the post anyways? They give lopez oppotunities to have him score in the low post, and he's a rookie. But there is no plays run for Yi? and people expect him to be more consistent.

 

[kobimel]

why don't Yi get the oppotunity to do some Isolations in the post anyways? They give lopez oppotunities to have him score in the low post, and he's a rookie. But there is no plays run for Yi? and people expect him to be more consistent.

Yi has no post game, mate. Lopez knows what to do with the ball in the post. Yi is a perimeter player. Carter and Harris own the perimeter isolations. Plus, Yi isn't a good enough dribbler to get past his man in an iso facing the basket.

 

[YiOF]

well if you just want him to knock down open jumpers more, that's more reasonable. But how open he gets depends largely on his defender since the dribble drive offense doesn't involve too much movement if you are just there to stretch the floor.

 

[YiOF]

Yi has no post game, mate. Lopez knows what to do with the ball in the post. Yi is a perimeter player. Carter and Harris own the perimeter isolations. Plus, Yi isn't a good enough dribbler to get past his man in an iso facing the basket.

how do you know he has no post games when he never gets the ball in the post?

 

[kobimel]

how do you know he has no post games when he never gets the ball in the post?

There's a reason why he doesn't get the ball in the post: he isn't strong enough to back down other players, he doesn't have a hook shot to go if he can't, he doesn't have the spin move to spin off his defender. If he gets the ball in the post he'll either get blocked, lose the ball or take a turnaround fadeaway 90% of the time.

 

[YiOF]

[video=youtube;eOzjo27nFMc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOzjo27nFMc[/video]

of course one play doesn't say much, but saying Yi has no post game is ridiculous.

 

[YiOF]

There's a reason why he doesn't get the ball in the post: he isn't strong enough to back down other players, he doesn't have a hook shot to go if he can't, he doesn't have the spin move to spin off his defender. If he gets the ball in the post he'll either get blocked, lose the ball or take a turnaround fadeaway 90% of the time.

Post play is not all about strength. if you watch bosh or KG, they don't just back their man down, they use their quickness, pumpfakes, one dribble to the basket. you said yourself Yi is quick enough to get by his defenders. not all post players need to back his man deep and do a hook shot, when did you see KG or bosh do a hook shot?

 

[kobimel]

Post play is not all about strength. if you watch bosh or KG, they don't just back their man down, they use their quickness, pumpfakes, one dribble to the basket. you said yourself Yi is quick enough to get by his defenders. not all post players need to back his man deep and do a hook shot, when did you see KG or bosh do a hook shot?

That's why I said that he doesn't have the spin move to get past his defender with his back to him either. Basically, what I mean is that 1 out of 10 times he'll find the basket, but it's useless forcing him into a situation in which he isn't experienced or comfortable. Better to have him on the perimeter, where he has had some great games.

EDIT: Also, please don't compare Yi Jianlian to Chris Bosh and Kevin Garnett.

 

[YiOF]

That's why I said that he doesn't have the spin move to get past his defender with his back to him either. Basically, what I mean is that 1 out of 10 times he'll find the basket, but it's useless forcing him into a situation in which he isn't experienced or comfortable. Better to have him on the perimeter, where he has had some great games.

EDIT: Also, please don't compare Yi Jianlian to Chris Bosh and Kevin Garnett.

He did a spin move on williams pretty well. and who compared Yi jianlian to KG or bosh? just because they were mentioned doesn't mean they were compared, I don't know how that could create such confusion. I am simply saying finesse post game is a variation to the power post game.

 

[kobimel]

He did a spin move on williams pretty well. and who compared Yi jianlian to KG or bosh? just because they were mentioned doesn't mean they were compared, I don't know how that could create such confusion. I am simply saying finesse post game is a variation to the power post game.

My bad then, I misunderstood what you were saying.

As I said, 1 out of 10 times he'll work something out. But do you really think he can do that spin move over and over and get good results? I don't.

 

[YiOF]

My bad then, I misunderstood what you were saying.

As I said, 1 out of 10 times he'll work something out. But do you really think he can do that spin move over and over and get good results? I don't.

Of course not. He can also face up there, pumpfake to drive past his defender or just shoot the 10-15 foot jumper. spin around fade away is also an option. For a 7 footer, if he drives from outside the 3 pointline, he needs to take 2-3 dribbles, he will have a way harder time to do that than if he's closer to the basket, it would take him one dribble and he's underneath the basket.

 

[Malorkayel]

Some highlights of Yi's non-potential this season.

 

[ffz]

he needs to develop his left hand...

 

[BrooklynBound]

Some highlights of Yi's non-potential this season.

He had no one on him for the first two plays.

 

[CalamityX04]

@dumpy, my only arguement against the lack of offensive rebounds is that YI is already sitting behind the 3, so the odds of the ball reaching him off a miss are very low IMO and even when he runs in, the ball can bounce a completely different way than where YI is going or worse gets called for over the back...

I am one of those who claimed that YI isnt getting touches but i guess i should clarify that he is not being used in the paint more to fully enable his advantage of being 7ft. Yi has a post game despite contrary belief, it's nothing fancy more or less a bit ugly but he has one.... when Frank is having YI staying in 3pt land, how in the world can he effectively use his height to his advantage. he shoots and that's it, Yi can do much more but for some reason he's staying behind. if he can mix it up, have Yi start low and then stretch, here we have our X factor. i blame this on the coach because so far it does look to me its by design that Yi stays out far.

As for the comparison to Krstic, well he was the man(been watching the Nets for 9 years maybe) but look who was he pg??? an assist machine in Jason Kidd. Yi's? Devin the one man Harris show... now i'm not hating on Harris by any means and i understand the two styles of play, i luv Harris for who he is and being a game breaker but no one can tell me he's not a ball hogger at the very least. He at many times does not pass for the easy score and takes it upon himself to draw the foul. but i guess what i'm saying is with both Harris and VC scoring crazy how much "production" do we expect from Yi? the whole team in general needs to contribute including from Lopez but i don't see our coach getting him into the offensive game.

not saying i'm happy with his performance of late but i'm not for this whole benchin him movement.... based off his limited opportunities i can't say he's horrible.

 

[Dumpy]

This is all speculative. It does no good to say that Yi would be more productive and consistent if he was used differently. He has a certain role, and it is his job to perform it as well as he can. The team obviously believes that he can do an adequate job with what they've asked. What would you think of a mediocre employee who justified his poor performance at the packing plant by saying that he should have more responsibility, or would be more effective on a different assemply line where there are no openings? You do what you are asked to do.

Incidentally, it is somewhat irrelevant to compare Devin to Kidd. Vince Carter serves as PG on half the sets, and he does a pretty good job at setting up his teammates.

 

[ViNNNsanity]

So you're saying if Frank has Devin's role at C, it'd be Harris' fault for underperforming? That's just pure bullshit. As a coach, you're supposed to give your team the best chance to succeed. This is basketball, not a blue collar plant factory. I agree with Yi fans, there's definitely more to his game and potential than open 3's. If he's not hitting the open J, set him up to make a play for him in the paint. Camping him out on the perimeter does not help his development. Leave that to one dimensional guys like Simmons. I know it sucks watching, Yi fans, but Frank did the same thing with Kidd...turned him into a 3pt shooter.

 

[nets1]

This is all speculative. It does no good to say that Yi would be more productive and consistent if he was used differently. He has a certain role, and it is his job to perform it as well as he can. The team obviously believes that he can do an adequate job with what they've asked. What would you think of a mediocre employee who justified his poor performance at the packing plant by saying that he should have more responsibility, or would be more effective on a different assemply line where there are no openings? You do what you are asked to do.

Incidentally, it is somewhat irrelevant to compare Devin to Kidd. Vince Carter serves as PG on half the sets, and he does a pretty good job at setting up his teammates.

To me its crazy to even consider that the nets draw up certain plays for an unproven foreign player who has little nba experience. The nets do have a superstar in Vince Carter, and a budding star in Devin Harris. Why would the ignore the stars for an unproven inconsistent player? Yi has to earn his minutes, and earn his plays as well. He does get a decent amount of touches and shots. Many shots are uncontested and missed. Maybe the nba could come with a new rule that prevents others teams from playing defense so Yi can drive to the basket more? There comes a time when Yi has to prove he belongs out there, and that happens when he is more consistent and makes his shots.

If you claim he's not able to consistently make shots from long range then maybe this is not a role he's able to fill, then maybe its time to try someone, anybody else who is capable. All i ask is give the rest of the players the same opportunity that Yi is getting. You earn your minutes on this team, that what Frank has been preaching since training camp, you should also earn your starting spot...

oh yeah, go nets!!!

 

[YiOF]

To me its crazy to even consider that the nets draw up certain plays for an unproven foreign player who has little nba experience. The nets do have a superstar in Vince Carter, and a budding star in Devin Harris. Why would the ignore the stars for an unproven inconsistent player? Yi has to earn his minutes, and earn his plays as well. He does get a decent amount of touches and shots. Many shots are uncontested and missed. Maybe the nba could come with a new rule that prevents others teams from playing defense so Yi can drive to the basket more? There comes a time when Yi has to prove he belongs out there, and that happens when he is more consistent and makes his shots.

If you claim he's not able to consistently make shots from long range then maybe this is not a role he's able to fill, then maybe its time to try someone, anybody else who is capable. All i ask is give the rest of the players the same opportunity that Yi is getting. You earn your minutes on this team, that what Frank has been preaching since training camp, you should also earn your starting spot...

oh yeah, go nets!!!

There are 100+ possession in an NBA game, nobody is saying plays should run through Yi for 50 times, that would be stupid. Giving him 2-3 possessions is hardly ignoring the stars for an unproven inconsistent player. If running a couple easy set plays can make Yi more consistent than just having him wing it whenever he gets the ball, it's not really too much to ask.

You seem to have the idea that Yi's missing too many uncontested open shots, but Ryan Anderson is making them at a much consistent rate, you are definitely just delusional. how do you just over look 1-8, 1-6, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3s shooting nights from Ryan Anderson and his .422 FG%. Right now the starting job is given to Yi, whether he earned it or not doesn't really matter. what matters is that Ryan Anderson hardly done enough to take it from Yi. But you seem to already have your mind set that Ryan is more consistent despite what the stats says, then I can't really convince you otherwise.

 

[Netted]

So you're saying if Frank has Devin's role at C, it'd be Harris' fault for underperforming? That's just pure bullshit. As a coach, you're supposed to give your team the best chance to succeed. This is basketball, not a blue collar plant factory. I agree with Yi fans, there's definitely more to his game and potential than open 3's. If he's not hitting the open J, set him up to make a play for him in the paint. Camping him out on the perimeter does not help his development. Leave that to one dimensional guys like Simmons. I know it sucks watching, Yi fans, but Frank did the same thing with Kidd...turned him into a 3pt shooter.

LOL... yeah Frank turned Kidd into a 3pt shooter. Didn't know Frank was Father Time.

 

[Malorkayel]

He had no one on him for the first two plays.

Basketball101, score when you're not properly defended. This isn't ghetto basketball, son.

 

[nets1]

There are 100+ possession in an NBA game, nobody is saying plays should run through Yi for 50 times, that would be stupid. Giving him 2-3 possessions is hardly ignoring the stars for an unproven inconsistent player. If running a couple easy set plays can make Yi more consistent than just having him wing it whenever he gets the ball, it's not really too much to ask.

You seem to have the idea that Yi's missing too many uncontested open shots, but Ryan Anderson is making them at a much consistent rate, you are definitely just delusional. how do you just over look 1-8, 1-6, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3s shooting nights from Ryan Anderson and his .422 FG%. Right now the starting job is given to Yi, whether he earned it or not doesn't really matter. what matters is that Ryan Anderson hardly done enough to take it from Yi. But you seem to already have your mind set that Ryan is more consistent despite what the stats says, then I can't really convince you otherwise.

Mr. Yiof,

I understand we may have a difference of opinion here, but why the insults? Becasue i don't agree with you in this topic i'm delusional? How bout less insults and try to stay on topic.

Now you listed 4 games where Ryan Anderson had poor shooting nights out of 17 games. How many poor shooting nights has Yi had poor shooting games out of 17? Could it be you didn't or choose not to list Yi's short commings because he's had plenty more poor shooting performances? Ryan anderson a few games back was leading the nba in 3 point shooting, but you failed to mention that.

Yi gets to play with the starters and is the 4th option or even the 3rd option. Ryan Anderson plays with the second unit when he comes in , and usually finishes the games with the starters because of Yi's foul problems ( poor defense?) or in disappearing act. When you play with the starters like VC and Devin Harris the stars will get doubled teamed and a kick out pass goes to a role player who is expected to make the shot. Yi is failing at that.

If Ryan Anderson was starting would he be making those open looks? Would Ryan Anderson be getting the same wide open looks that Yi gets? Would he be hitting those shot? We will never know because Ryan hasn't started yet.
When Ryan is with the second unit his shots are mostly contested because double teams don't really occur with the second units out there. So Ryan Anderson is making more shots than Yi at the same position being more contested than Yi.

Other Questions:

Does Ryan Anderson pass better than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson have better BB IQ than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson play better defense than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson get to the line more and make more FT's than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson make his own shot better than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson have better post moves than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson take more charges than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson dive on the floor and scrap more than YI?

these are the qualities i look for in a starting PF in the nba.

Help me understand my delusional thoughts please.....

 

[ViNNNsanity]

LOL... yeah Frank turned Kidd into a 3pt shooter. Didn't know Frank was Father Time.

I see you're unfamiliar with the ISO fest Frank ran all season. Maybe I've been assuming people were actually watching the games...

 

[CalamityX04]

To me its crazy to even consider that the nets draw up certain plays for an unproven foreign player who has little nba experience. The nets do have a superstar in Vince Carter, and a budding star in Devin Harris. Why would the ignore the stars for an unproven inconsistent player? Yi has to earn his minutes, and earn his plays as well. He does get a decent amount of touches and shots. Many shots are uncontested and missed. Maybe the nba could come with a new rule that prevents others teams from playing defense so Yi can drive to the basket more? There comes a time when Yi has to prove he belongs out there, and that happens when he is more consistent and makes his shots.

If you claim he's not able to consistently make shots from long range then maybe this is not a role he's able to fill, then maybe its time to try someone, anybody else who is capable. All i ask is give the rest of the players the same opportunity that Yi is getting. You earn your minutes on this team, that what Frank has been preaching since training camp, you should also earn your starting spot...

oh yeah, go nets!!!

IMO a star player is a player who doesn't need set plays to get his shot... yeah there are set plays for VC and DH, rightfully so however they don't need them because IMO star players can create their own shot and scoring rather than needing a set play/design to create opportunities for themselves...

with that being said, Yi "can" provide more to the NETs however Frank is having him by design(again i havent seen him used anything else) stay behind the 3. Yi has post up ability which is pretty good if not average and is 7ft! what good is 7ft behind the 3? Yi can run the floor but not using these strengths and forcing him to stay one dimensional what else can he do to avoid being lashed out or criticized? he will need to shoot perfect from 3 to get approval? he can offer so much more but its pointless if Frank has him stayin one dimensional which makes it easier to defend. I don't want to see VC or Harris continuing to win games for the NETs, we need the Brooks and YIs to contribute but their chances and opportunities are limited by either design or play....

Now i'm not (or YI fans) saying to get Yi running the show, but to let him try, what's the worse that can happen? he scores? VC and Harris will get their points by going through their own stretch of solo acts but is it too much to let YI or Brook open their game up a little? it's easier to defend when you know exactly whose touching the ball... hell i wouldn't be so differ about DH and VC forcing shots if they were driving drawing out an extra defender then hitting the open cutter to the hoop... but they don't so what more can we do?

perfect example, look at the Lakers, they are a beast because of depth... not from one scoring source... am i saying we have the same level of talent no not touching that but see how hard it is to beat them when they involve all 5 players on the court?

if Frank wants to make YI one dimensional fine he's the coach but he's whole letting YI sink or swim thing is more like sink or swim with bricks on your back... but hopefully everything works out

 

[nets1]

IMO a star player is a player who doesn't need set plays to get his shot... yeah there are set plays for VC and DH, rightfully so however they don't need them because IMO star players can create their own shot and scoring rather than needing a set play/design to create opportunities for themselves...

with that being said, Yi "can" provide more to the NETs however Frank is having him by design(again i havent seen him used anything else) stay behind the 3. Yi has post up ability which is pretty good if not average and is 7ft! what good is 7ft behind the 3? Yi can run the floor but not using these strengths and forcing him to stay one dimensional what else can he do to avoid being lashed out or criticized? he will need to shoot perfect from 3 to get approval? he can offer so much more but its pointless if Frank has him stayin one dimensional which makes it easier to defend. I don't want to see VC or Harris continuing to win games for the NETs, we need the Brooks and YIs to contribute but their chances and opportunities are limited by either design or play....

Now i'm not (or YI fans) saying to get Yi running the show, but to let him try, what's the worse that can happen? he scores? VC and Harris will get their points by going through their own stretch of solo acts but is it too much to let YI or Brook open their game up a little? it's easier to defend when you know exactly whose touching the ball... hell i wouldn't be so differ about DH and VC forcing shots if they were driving drawing out an extra defender then hitting the open cutter to the hoop... but they don't so what more can we do?

perfect example, look at the Lakers, they are a beast because of depth... not from one scoring source... am i saying we have the same level of talent no not touching that but see how hard it is to beat them when they involve all 5 players on the court?
if Frank wants to make YI one dimensional fine he's the coach but he's whole letting YI sink or swim thing is more like sink or swim with bricks on your back... but hopefully everything works out

When Yi gets the ball from a kick out he doesn't have to shoot it. In fact he could drive up the middle and take advantage of his god given skills. I truly don't believe Frank has orders to him only to shoot that shot..

 

[YiOF]

Ok, If my post insulted you, I apologize. I personally don't think delusional is an insult word, I simply meant to say that you are believing what you want to believe.

Now you listed 4 games where Ryan Anderson had poor shooting nights out of 17 games. How many poor shooting nights has Yi had poor shooting games out of 17? Could it be you didn't or choose not to list Yi's short commings because he's had plenty more poor shooting performances?

well lets list them then.

Yi's bad shooting Nights:
11/1 vs GSW 0-4
11/7 vs IND 1-10
11/12 vs IND 4-13
11/14 vs ATL 1-4
11/15 vs ATL 2-6
11/18 vs CLE 3-12
11/25 vs LAL 3-9

Ryan Anderson's bad shooting nights:
10/29 vs WSH 1-3
11/4 vs PHX 1-3
11/18 vs CLE 1-4
11/22 vs LAC 1-5
11/25 vs LAL 1-8
11/29 vs UTA 1-6

Ok, 7 Bad shooting nights in 17 games for Yi(.411) vs 6 Bad shooting nights in 14 games played for Ryan(.428) (Ryan played in 15 games, but the one game he played 2 minutes and have 0 fga doesn't count). I don't see Ryan doing better.

Ryan anderson a few games back was leading the nba in 3 point shooting, but you failed to mention that.

What's the point of mentioning that? anyone can get lucky and get that honor 5 games into the season. Yi actually have better 3p% right now.

Yi gets to play with the starters and is the 4th option or even the 3rd option. Ryan Anderson plays with the second unit when he comes in , and usually finishes the games with the starters because of Yi's foul problems ( poor defense?) or in disappearing act. When you play with the starters like VC and Devin Harris the stars will get doubled teamed and a kick out pass goes to a role player who is expected to make the shot. Yi is failing at that.

I think you are using "usually" too loosely. while I don't have the exact numbers, but Ryan Anderson finished game with first units for only 2-3 games. Saying he usually finishes games with the starters definitely is one of your delusional thinking I was talking about. (I mean no offense here). I will comment on how playing with starter will affect his play later.

If Ryan Anderson was starting would he be making those open looks? Would Ryan Anderson be getting the same wide open looks that Yi gets? Would he be hitting those shot? We will never know because Ryan hasn't started yet.

When Ryan is with the second unit his shots are mostly contested because double teams don't really occur with the second units out there. So Ryan Anderson is making more shots than Yi at the same position being more contested than Yi.

This logic has been argued over and over again on other boards, do you people better when you play along side star players? you can argue either way. Ray Allen should get more open shots in boston as the 3rd option than he did as first option in Seattle right, since KG and PP will get double teamed and Ray Allen would be wide open right? By your logic, his % should be better and get more points? Neither are true. This is not set in stones. Coming off the Bench means you are playing other teams second Unit as well. Bottom line is, we can make argument for whichever side, so it's really not something concrete that you can convince anyone.

Other Questions:

Does Ryan Anderson pass better than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson have better BB IQ than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson play better defense than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson get to the line more and make more FT's than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson make his own shot better than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson have better post moves than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson take more charges than Yi?
Does Ryan Anderson dive on the floor and scrap more than YI?

Good Questions, Ryan probably has slight advantage in most of them. Some of them are arguable. But three of them he definitely does not do better than Yi.

Ryan does not play better defense than Yi.
Ryan does not make his own shot better than Yi.
Ryan does not have better post moves than Yi.

There are some questions I could ask too.
Does Yi run the floor better?
Does Yi get open more often?
Does Yi alter more shots?
Does Yi have harder defensive assignments against first unit players?
Does Yi rebound better?
Does Yi get back on Defense faster?

If Ryan Anderson truly performed much better than Yi, Frank would be stupid not to start him. He might say he's letting Yi swim or sink, that might not be his true intention or thoughts.