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Orion Bailey said:
I would think if protestors, antifa, want things to get better and get rid of bad cops and good cops protecting bad cops, they would want to lead by example and separate themselves from the anarchists breaking the law.
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You've used this line before but you never deal with the response to it: protestors aren't an organization who decide who joins and have a leadership hierarchy. If they did, then yes, you'd be absolutely right. The police are an organization, who have to decide who to hire and who to keep employed. The police have a leadership hierarchy. You don't get to decide who's part of a city-wide protest. You do get to decide who's part of the police. You don't get to give orders to other people in a protest. You do get to give orders to other people in the police if you're part of leadership. You don't know who's a part of the protest you're also at. You do know the members of the police force.

These are not comparable situations at all.
 
Orion Bailey said:
uh no thats not what i said.

nice try though....

groups of people need to hold their own in check. Period. Police need to hold their own in check and Antifa need to hold their own in check.

the argument against that is just silly. And really concerning anyone would put up a fight or push back on that.
If your going to argue this, argue it with someone else. Cause Im just gonna consider your opinion wrong on this.

Two wrongs do not make a right no matter what you try to say to convince me otherwise.

Its wrong of good cops to protect bad cops and its wrong of antifa to protect anarchists.

I question the sanity of anyone opposing this...
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Sometimes those folks out of check might be violent and you might be risking a lot when you try to control them. No, I'd say controlling the out of control would best be left up to the police.
I would agree that there are times when a protest might best be canceled when violent types might likely be anticipated.
 
Im calling on all those named Lanny to go to Delta Park today at 6:01 pm for a big ass party, and a lagging contest, to see who gets to be "The Lanny"!
 
Minstrel said:
You've used this line before but you never deal with the response to it: protestors aren't an organization who decide who joins and have a leadership hierarchy. If they did, then yes, you'd be absolutely right. The police are an organization, who have to decide who to hire and who to keep employed. The police have a leadership hierarchy. You don't get to decide who's part of a city-wide protest. You do get to decide who's part of the police. You don't get to give orders to other people in a protest. You do get to give orders to other people in the police if you're part of leadership. You don't know who's a part of the protest you're also at. You do know the members of the police force.

These are not comparable situations at all.
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I believe i have but maybe not clearly enough so ill try better.
Of course the police is a true organization, but what relevance does that have to do with antifa and their loose fit affiliates actively providing cover and protection to those next too and behind them committing crimes?
What some people are saying and demanding of the police is not reasonable given the reoccurring situation. Cops cant force thier way through three layers of nonviolent protestors to get to the ones committing crimes or they will be blasted even more so than they are now.
This type of thinking has put cops in a no win situation. They are damned if they do damned if they dont.
Let me ask you Minstrel, What do you think the response would be if cops forcibly pushed through the front lines of the protestors to get to the ones committing crimes? Do you think the protestors are going to step aside and allow them though or do you think they will push back, intensifying a situation and preventing the officers from doing their job people some are clamoring for?
 
Lanny said:
Sometimes those folks out of check might be violent and you might be risking a lot when you try to control them. No, I'd say controlling the out of control would best be left up to the police.
I would agree that there are times when a protest might best be canceled when violent types might likely be anticipated.
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oh i dont disagree and thats why coos where protective gear they are also getting scrutinized for.
But let me pose the same question to you, i did to @Minstrel. if the cops were to try to push through the front lines of the protest in an attempt to get to the ones committing crimes, do you think the protestors will step aside and let the cops do thier job?
 
Hoopguru said:
Im calling on all those named Lanny to go to Delta Park today at 6:01 pm for a big ass party, and a lagging contest, to see who gets to be "The Lanny"!
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Are you talking about pool? Geez, I use to be a pretty good 8 Ball player. When shooting at a ball I could make it go at a right angle from the cue ball.
One time I was playing a guy who never called any of his shots while I always did. I got so tired of it that I thought I'd teach him a lesson. He left me in a terrible position. All I could do was jump over his ball and then make a bank shot to drive the winning ball into a corner pocket. Dear God, I just made the best shot of my life and kept a dead pan look on my face. I never gave on that I could make those shots every day even though I couldn't and like I said it was the best shot, and still is, of my life. He turned around and went to the rack of sticks and as he was hanging up his stick he said "I can't beat pool playing like that so I quit". Now, how sweet is that.
 
Orion Bailey said:
oh i dont disagree and thats why coos where protective gear they are also getting scrutinized for.
But let me pose the same question to you, i did to @Minstrel. if the cops were to try to push through the front lines of the protest in an attempt to get to the ones committing crimes, do you think the protestors will step aside and let the cops do thier job?
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The good ones would. You'd have to make it clear what the police were doing.
If I were there, and I almost was, even got my wife to agree to go, I wouldn't get in their way. I believe in the main thrust of Antifa, anti fascism so I count myself as one of them.
 
Orion Bailey said:
Of course the police is a true organization, but what relevance does that have to do with antifa and their loose fit affiliates actively providing cover and protection to those next too and behind them committing crimes?
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Purposely blocking police from getting to a crime being committed is, itself, a crime.

Let me ask you Minstrel, What do you think the response would be if cops forcibly pushed through the front lines of the protestors to get to the ones committing crimes? Do you think the protestors are going to step aside and allow them though or do you think they will push back, intensifying a situation and preventing the officers from doing their job people some are clamoring for?
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The idea that ordinary protesters are running interference for actual criminals seems way off-base to me. Normal protestors aren't forming a wall to bar police from getting through. I've been to plenty of large-scale protests before and I could move through the crowd without much problem--violence wasn't needed. If police moved through the crowd non-violently to record (on their body cams) and arrest actual law-breakers, there would be no problem. That is, in fact, their job and no one has a problem with them doing their job. It's the extracurricular violence and intimidation that people have a problem with.
 
Minstrel said:
Purposely blocking police from getting to a crime being committed is, itself, a crime.



The idea that ordinary protesters are running interference for actual criminals seems way off-base to me. Normal protestors aren't forming a wall to bar police from getting through. I've been to plenty of large-scale protests before and I could move through the crowd without much problem--violence wasn't needed. If police moved through the crowd non-violently to record (on their body cams) and arrest actual law-breakers, there would be no problem. That is, in fact, their job and no one has a problem with them doing their job. It's the extracurricular violence and intimidation that people have a problem with.
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Correct. It is and so many can get arrested.

Im not saying its all an elaborate plan, im saying the fact is they have provided a thick layer of protection.

So the next step is to attempt to put those people into handcuffs and arrest them. What do you think is the next thing to happen?
Protestors fight back. cops back off aNd spray tear gas.
riot ensues.




This has been played out over and over. this is a cycle and its unreasonable to demand the cops to do their job in the face of such opposition without becoming violent.
The countless footage of cops just standing their ground while just getting verbally blasted by “peaceful protestors” trying to instigate cops into becoming violent...is astounding.


To even suggest cops should just do their job and arrest people is pretty much laughable and nonsensical in this situation.

Are you a cop moving through the crowd? If not then apples to oranges.

Youve been to protests where people behind the front lines are bashing windows and starting fires? If not, again l. Apples to oranges and irrelevant. Out of context.


If you dont think protestors are providing a line of defense i dont know what to tell ya. They have surrounded gov. Building and set them on fire. There are fences with layers of people confronting the police every time they try to exit the building and arrest/ put a stop to things.

im afraid either you haven't seen all the footage or you are simply turning a blind eye to the protests in portland. Not other protests. The portland protests downtown.


This turning of the blind eye is much the same of whats happening downtown.

really not much of a debate here.

We shall have to agree to disagree as im going to believe what my own eyes see going on.
 
Lanny said:
The good ones would. You'd have to make it clear what the police were doing.
If I were there, and I almost was, even got my wife to agree to go, I wouldn't get in their way. I believe in the main thrust of Antifa, anti fascism so I count myself as one of them.
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i would hope and think so, but then that must mean there arent very many good ones. Just watch some of the film when the cops come out aNd try to stop the criminal activity.
They dont step aside. So they get gassed. And then everyone thinks the cops are bad for gassing.

Well dont block them from trying to do thier job and get at those breaking the law.

im sure everyone has got to be tired of fighting aNd most people should know right from wrong but wrongs have been protected for far too long. Starting with the police.

But it wont end if the response is just the same thing from the other side. Thats just a recipe for disaster. Provides no solution to end anything and work for a better tomorrow.

Two wrongs do not and will not make a right. They will not solve things or make things better.

Its hard for me to believe i have to type these words out. I would think it would be considered much more common knowledge than it seems to be.
 
Lanny said:
Are you talking about pool? Geez, I use to be a pretty good 8 Ball player. When shooting at a ball I could make it go at a right angle from the cue ball.
One time I was playing a guy who never called any of his shots while I always did. I got so tired of it that I thought I'd teach him a lesson. He left me in a terrible position. All I could do was jump over his ball and then make a bank shot to drive the winning ball into a corner pocket. Dear God, I just made the best shot of my life and kept a dead pan look on my face. I never gave on that I could make those shots every day even though I couldn't and like I said it was the best shot, and still is, of my life. He turned around and went to the rack of sticks and as he was hanging up his stick he said "I can't beat pool playing like that so I quit". Now, how sweet is that.
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Actually talking about lagging quarters against a wall or line.
 
Orion Bailey said:
oh i dont disagree and thats why coos where protective gear they are also getting scrutinized for.
But let me pose the same question to you, i did to @Minstrel. if the cops were to try to push through the front lines of the protest in an attempt to get to the ones committing crimes, do you think the protestors will step aside and let the cops do thier job?
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Ever hear of plain clothes police? Not hard to get to the front of the lines if you look like everybody else. Also not hard to follow people after they've committed a crime.

Ever hear of drones? Cameras on buildings?

Getting evidence of people committing crimes in public is not that difficult in this day and age.

If the police actually wanted to do their jobs, rather than trying to leverage the public into supporting police brutality and reduced oversight.

Imagine if plain clothes police shot paint balls to mark the people committing the crime. On camera. Then collected them. On camera.
 
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Orion Bailey said:
This has been played out over and over. this is a cycle and its unreasonable to demand the cops to do their job in the face of such opposition without becoming violent.
The countless footage of cops just standing their ground while just getting verbally blasted by “peaceful protestors” trying to instigate cops into becoming violent...is astounding.
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Are you advocating people be physically accosted or arrested for a verbal interaction with police?
 
Phatguysrule said:
Are you advocating people be physically accosted or arrested for a verbal interaction with police?
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Free speech is important to uphold. And so is preventing property damage. If I lived in a community where there was no control or vandals/criminals and they were given a free pass to raise hell and and be destructive without anyone enforcement from the law Id probably re-locate.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Are you advocating people be physically accosted or arrested for a verbal interaction with police?
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Man.. im not going to give your posts any thought.
You stretch things way off base. Please go back and respond to your last stretch if you actually want an up Nd up conversation. Address your mixing up of prevent vs protect.

how can i take you serious when you never..

never mind.
 
Hoopguru said:
Free speech is important to uphold. And so is preventing property damage. If I lived in a community where there was no control or vandals/criminals and they were given a free pass to raise hell and and be destructive without anyone enforcement from the law Id probably re-locate.
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yeah. I never said they werent within their rights at all.
Im simply saying that too many people are refusing to acknowledge how it has become a no win situation for the cops downtown portland. They are damned if they do, damned if they dont.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Ever hear of plain clothes police? Not hard to get to the front of the lines if you look like everybody else. Also not hard to follow people after they've committed a crime.

Ever hear of drones? Cameras on buildings?

Getting evidence of people committing crimes in public is not that difficult in this day and age.

If the police actually wanted to do their jobs, rather than trying to leverage the public into supporting police brutality and reduced oversight.

Imagine if plain clothes police shot paint balls to mark the people committing the crime. On camera. Then collected them. On camera.
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gimme a break. They wear masks. What good is a video gonna do?????

lol. Like i said. I just cant take you seriously on this topic man. You are not being reasonable and simply ignoring certain things to maintain an ill fated narrative that its all the cops fault downtown.

your gonna have to continue with someone else.
 
Orion Bailey said:
gimme a break. They wear masks. What good is a video gonna do?????

lol. Like i said. I just cant take you seriously on this topic man. You are not being reasonable and simply ignoring certain things to maintain an ill fated narrative that its all the cops fault downtown.

your gonna have to continue with someone else.
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Follow them... Talk to other police on the radio and lead them to him. All on video. You're just making excuses.

This isn't as complicated as you're making it sound. Take their cell phone. Use it to triangulate their location at a given time.

This is how police are supposed to do their jobs.

Police don't get to arrest people for yelling at them. Police don't get to beat the nearest person because somebody else in the general area breaks the law.

These things require evidence. If that's a problem then you are not fit to be a police officer.

My only argument is that police should not be allowed to arrest or beat people unless there is evidence they have done something wrong. Body cam video would be enough. Especially if accompanied by an overhead video.

Nobody ever said everything is the fault of the police. Just that they aren't doing enough to stop it, and what they are doing is often the wrong way.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
Follow them... Talk to other police on the radio and lead them to him. All on video. You're just making excuses.

This isn't as complicated as you're making it sound. Take their cell phone. Use it to triangulate their location at a given time.

This is how police are supposed to do their jobs.

Police don't get to arrest people for yelling at them. Police don't get to beat the nearest person because somebody else in the general area breaks the law.

These things require evidence. If that's a problem then you are not fit to be a police officer.

My only argument is that police should not be allowed to arrest or beat people unless there is evidence they have done something wrong. Body cam video would be enough. Especially if accompanied by an overhead video.

Nobody ever said everything is the fault of the police. Just that they aren't doing enough to stop it, and what they arw doing is often the wrong way.
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This thread was started in July, 2020. How much progress has been made since then?
 
ABM said:
This thread was started in July, 2020. How much progress has been made since then?
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Almost makes you question the effectiveness of the methods used by those who are tasked with keeping order...
 
ABM said:
Yeah, who captains that ship....Wheeler?
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I am!

boat-dogs.jpg
 
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