Politics Why don't Republicans care?

[Hoopguru]

Hello, long time listener, first time caller.

Rich boy on a car phone!

 

[Stevenson]

I'm not a Republican, but politics really isn't about what you care about beyond the broad principles/policies you're fighting for as a party. Whether Trump is corrupt isn't one of those broad principles/policies--I'm sure a number of Republican politicians care and think he is absolutely corrupt. Maybe even all of them. But what happens if they go after Trump? Trump commands the approval of 80-90% of Republican voters. How do you survive as a Republican politician by angering 80-90% of your voters? Any Republican senator that votes to convict Trump, or actively talks about him as corrupt, is looking at getting drummed out of their position via a primary challenge. They'd much rather remain in their position than stand on principle. And they can justify it to themselves as staying in power to advance their important principles like lower taxation and...well, I'm not sure there's much else they stand for at the moment that they'd actually fight for and spend political capital on.

Once you've decided you can't oppose Trump, the only playbook you can run is shrugging off his actions as fake news and exaggeration.

Thank you.

 

[Stevenson]

But @Minstrel lets just add that it’s amazing, no weird, no repugnant that no one defends his actions. Not even the righties here.

That really was my question.

I get why the senators are defending him, you make a really good point. But that no one other than them won’t go agains him is just so strange.

 

[oldfisherman]

And of course you are welcome to that opinion, just as you'd be welcome to the opinion that the Blazers are by far the best team in the league today.

It's just that there isn't a lot of factual basis for those opinions.

barfo

Well, when I die, and go to hell. I hope the devil is in charge, and not Pelosi.

 

[bluefrog]

It sets a very dangerous precedent to actively obstruct an investigation. When you withhold evidence, ignore subpoenas and threaten witnesses, you not only encourage further corruption but you also jeopardize the whole checks and balances system our government was founded on.

 

[barfo]

Well, when I die, and go to hell. I hope the devil is in charge, and not Pelosi.

I kind of expect to see Bill Cosby in that role, myself.

barfo

 

[Strenuus]

It sets a very dangerous precedent to actively obstruct an investigation. When you withhold evidence, ignore subpoenas and threaten witnesses, you not only encourage further corruption but you also jeopardize the whole checks and balances system our government was founded on.

Its this!

If he had nothing to hide, he wouldnt obstruct... Block witnesses, documents.

If its a witch hunt, prove it.

But hes not.

 

[twobullz]

Its this!

If he had nothing to hide, he wouldnt obstruct... Block witnesses, documents.

If its a witch hunt, prove it.

But hes not.

The issue is a lot of people in this country don;'t care about right or wrong. There is a big portion of this country, a lot of them back our current president, who are pushing and hoping for a civil war. It is like they get off on the idea of being able to break any law and taking up arms against their fellow citizen. Look at what is going on in Virginia. All the "Militias" are assembling. A lot of them going with ever intent of breaking the law and trying to start a war.

 

[Minstrel]

But @Minstrel lets just add that it’s amazing, no weird, no repugnant that no one defends his actions. Not even the righties here.

That really was my question.

I get why the senators are defending him, you make a really good point. But that no one other than them won’t go agains him is just so strange.

That, as e-blazer said, is down to tribalism. And, if I'm honest, Democrats aren't immune to it either. I've seen plenty of hypocrisies from Democrats when defending their own. I think Republicans are more likely to close ranks than Democrats (for example, Democrats did largely take Al Franken to task for his alleged sexual harassment, pressuring him to step down--we've seen that Republicans try to weather the storm under similar circumstances) but Democrats, especially private citizens as opposed to politicians, are plenty willing to engage in ad hoc defense of their party.

It's not simple dishonesty (for either side)--it's that your perceptions tend to change when you're appraising "your people." The best illustration I can think of, of such thinking, is football fans--a football fan is far more likely to see all sorts of holding by the other team, but almost none from their own team even though nearly every play has blocks that at least skirt the edge of holding. Most football fans think they're being objective, but through the prism of their bias, they chalk up the "on the edge" plays by the opposition to missed calls and see "on the edge" plays by their own team as just the usual trench warfare. Nobody sees themselves as being cool with holding but only for their own team. How they see the thing is inextricably tied up in who they're rooting for.

The same is true, to an even greater extent, in politics.

 

[barfo]

I'll note that LBJ and Nixon both got more than 60% of the vote. Somehow our organization into tribes has become more rigid such that it prevents that sort of crossover voting anymore.

barfo

 

[donkiez]

A two party system enforces tribalism because you may hate someone in your party, but to have them removed would give power to the other party which most would consider the greater evil.

 

[crandc]

The Republican Party has become the Trump cult. Republicans are abandoning positions they held for years, often decades, to conform to the twist and turns of Trump tweets. Any Republican not willing to be part of it has left.

I know many people who liked and admired President Obama. One friend of mine considered him to be among the top three or four greatest presidents in our history. But even that person acknowledged he was put in office by "we the people" and that he is a fallible man like any other. But Trump is referred to as divinely chosen, god-like, so far above what mere mortals can be. This for a man who is profoundly stupid, ignorant, petty, vulgar, corrupt, cares for nothing but his ego and his wealth, whines like a spoiled child, lies constantly. But that is actually the answer; if you looked objectively at what Trump says, it is incoherent, often demented, and divorced from reality. His policies, aside from undo everything "the black guy" did, are all calculated to favor the rich and powerful, himself first of all, against everyone else. So he has to convincedhis followers that, like god, they can't truly understand him because he is so far above them, and must just worship

I do take issue with something @barfo said, although I agree with a lot of his remarks. It is not true that Republicans are "against government" or "against big government". That is a myth. True, they are against government with regards to environmental and consumer protection, civil rights laws, public health, minimum wage, social services. But they absolutely LOVE more more more more more government restrictions on women's bodies. They love making it harder to vote. They love police power as long as it is directed against the "right" people, people of color and immigrants. More police, more prisons, more death penalty, harsher penalties for drug use, deporting immigrants who have lived here peacefully and harmlessly for years, put children in cages. The generally love restrictions on private actions like drug use, porn, and above all sex. Not only do they oppose marriage equality (because government should decide whose marriages are valid), many conservative Republicans were outraged when the Supreme Court said states could not outlaw private sexual activity between consenting adults. Justice Scalia even suggested that masturbation should be illegal, don't ask how THAT would be enforced!

Trump himself, among other things, just yesterday proposed new rules that would require every public elementary and high school to certify to a new federal government agency that they allow students and teachers to participate in Christian prayer on campus during school hours and requires funding of Christian organizations in public schools. (Yes, he said religion, but do you think he is fighting for Muslims being able to pray in your kids' schools?) He proposed a rule that would require people receiving Social Security disability to undergo additional reviews, creating a new government bureaucracy at high cost. That's just two examples.

And they LOVE war, as long as others die. Veterans' benefits, not so much.

 

[Lanny]

Usually when something stinks there’s a reason for it. I can’t think of a single valid reason given Hunter’s past that he gets that board position, but again, I’m just stating what I think is going to happen. Feel free to express your own views.

Here's a reason. Hunter previously worked for a law firm that did business with Burisma. Hunter was appointed to represent the law firm in it's dealings with Burisma. Burisma, no doubt, thought that hiring Hunter, the Vice President's son, would turn out to be beneficial with their dealings with the United States. Hunter saw a lot of money in going to work separately for Burisma for doing little work. Good deal for Hunter while Burisma calculated a possibility of a good deal by hiring Hunter. Turned out that Burisma payed a pretty penny for very little if anything from Hunter.
Do you think this sort of thing has never or rarely happened before?

 

[Lanny]

The Republican Party has become the Trump cult. Republicans are abandoning positions they held for years, often decades, to conform to the twist and turns of Trump tweets. Any Republican not willing to be part of it has left.

I know many people who liked and admired President Obama. One friend of mine considered him to be among the top three or four greatest presidents in our history. But even that person acknowledged he was put in office by "we the people" and that he is a fallible man like any other. But Trump is referred to as divinely chosen, god-like, so far above what mere mortals can be. This for a man who is profoundly stupid, ignorant, petty, vulgar, corrupt, cares for nothing but his ego and his wealth, whines like a spoiled child, lies constantly. But that is actually the answer; if you looked objectively at what Trump says, it is incoherent, often demented, and divorced from reality. His policies, aside from undo everything "the black guy" did, are all calculated to favor the rich and powerful, himself first of all, against everyone else. So he has to convincedhis followers that, like god, they can't truly understand him because he is so far above them, and must just worship

I do take issue with something @barfo said, although I agree with a lot of his remarks. It is not true that Republicans are "against government" or "against big government". That is a myth. True, they are against government with regards to environmental and consumer protection, civil rights laws, public health, minimum wage, social services. But they absolutely LOVE more more more more more government restrictions on women's bodies. They love making it harder to vote. They love police power as long as it is directed against the "right" people, people of color and immigrants. More police, more prisons, more death penalty, harsher penalties for drug use, deporting immigrants who have lived here peacefully and harmlessly for years, put children in cages. The generally love restrictions on private actions like drug use, porn, and above all sex. Not only do they oppose marriage equality (because government should decide whose marriages are valid), many conservative Republicans were outraged when the Supreme Court said states could not outlaw private sexual activity between consenting adults. Justice Scalia even suggested that masturbation should be illegal, don't ask how THAT would be enforced!

Trump himself, among other things, just yesterday proposed new rules that would require every public elementary and high school to certify to a new federal government agency that they allow students and teachers to participate in Christian prayer on campus during school hours and requires funding of Christian organizations in public schools. (Yes, he said religion, but do you think he is fighting for Muslims being able to pray in your kids' schools?) He proposed a rule that would require people receiving Social Security disability to undergo additional reviews, creating a new government bureaucracy at high cost. That's just two examples.

And they LOVE war, as long as others die. Veterans' benefits, not so much.

Can't help it, I'm a rebel. Just how should the illegality of masturbation be enforced. I think that this is going to be the issue that shoots the support for the right to keep and bear arms through the roof and swells the membership of the NRA until it bursts. Hell, I might rejoin the NRA even though I'm too old to remember what masturbation is, although I do vaguely recall it being something special.

 

[jonnyboy]

Here's a reason. Hunter previously worked for a law firm that did business with Burisma. Hunter was appointed to represent the law firm in it's dealings with Burisma. Burisma, no doubt, thought that hiring Hunter, the Vice President's son, would turn out to be beneficial with their dealings with the United States. Hunter saw a lot of money in going to work separately for Burisma for doing little work. Good deal for Hunter while Burisma calculated a possibility of a good deal by hiring Hunter. Turned out that Burisma payed a pretty penny for very little if anything from Hunter.
Do you think this sort of thing has never or rarely happened before?

It happens all the time, and it’s corrupt as fuck. Hunter Biden is a degenerate drug addict fuckhead who has no business anywhere near a corporate board room. His tenure at Burisma is the textbook example of nepotism.

 

[barfo]

It happens all the time, and it’s corrupt as fuck. Hunter Biden is a degenerate drug addict fuckhead who has no business anywhere near a corporate board room. He’s the textbook example of nepotism.

Technically, it is not nepotism at all. Trump hiring Ivanka and Jared is nepotism. Burisma and Hunter Biden were unrelated parties.

barfo

 

[jonnyboy]

Technically, it is not nepotism at all. Trump hiring Ivanka and Jared is nepotism. Burisma and Hunter Biden were unrelated parties.

barfo

You lost me at “technically” lol. I don’t base my moral positions on technicalities. Ditto on Ivanka and Jared though, you will get no argument from me there. I wasn’t choosing parties, just viewing the topic at hand for what it was. If Jared Kushner was working for Burisma everyone on the other side would be shitting their pants. Although Kushner is actually more qualified than Hunter Biden by the simple deduction of not being a crack smoking hooker fucker, it would still be nepotism, and corrupt.

 

[barfo]

You lost me at “technically” lol. I don’t base my moral positions on technicalities. Ditto on Ivanka and Jared though, you will get no argument from me there. I wasn’t choosing parties, just viewing the topic at hand for what it was. If Jared Kushner was working for Burisma everyone on the other side would be shitting their pants. Although Kushner is actually more qualified than Hunter Biden by the simple deduction of not being a crack smoking hooker fucker, it would still be nepotism, and corrupt.

Yeah, well, if words don't have meanings, then I'm an avocado and Presbyterian rabbits funky farthing.

Let's delete "technically", then. It's not nepotism, period. It's sleazy, but it's a different sort of sleazy.

barfo

 

[yankeesince59]

Yeah, well, if words don't have meanings, then I'm an avocado and Presbyterian rabbits funky farthing.

Let's delete "technically", then. It's not nepotism, period. It's sleazy, but it's a different sort of sleazy.

barfo

lol...^^^post of the week.

 

[e_blazer]

Yeah, well, if words don't have meanings, then I'm an avocado and Presbyterian rabbits funky farthing.

Let's delete "technically", then. It's not nepotism, period. It's sleazy, but it's a different sort of sleazy.

barfo

LOL! Agreed, it's not nepotism since Hunter didn't get a job in government while Papa Joe was a federal official. If, as Lenny asserts, it was just Burisma giving Hunter a job in the hopes that his name on the board would be beneficial to business, it's a total nothing burger. OTOH, if Joe used his position to aid in that decision by Burisma, either through the use of intimidation or on offer of future assistance in
benefiting Burisma's business through his power as VP, then it's just classic political corruption. Seems as though investigations to date have sided on the nothing burger option. I still wouldn't be surprised to see the Repubs or Trump's legal team try to use it for political advantage during the impeachment trial.

 

[Stevenson]

You lost me at “technically” lol. I don’t base my moral positions on technicalities. Ditto on Ivanka and Jared though, you will get no argument from me there. I wasn’t choosing parties, just viewing the topic at hand for what it was. If Jared Kushner was working for Burisma everyone on the other side would be shitting their pants. Although Kushner is actually more qualified than Hunter Biden by the simple deduction of not being a crack smoking hooker fucker, it would still be nepotism, and corrupt.

Nepotism happens. JFK had his brother be Attorney General. Trump has his kids. I try and help my kids. I get that. That's the way the world works.

But to be clear, Burmisma hiring Hunter is not nepotism.

 

[MARIS61]

I understand this version of the OT Forum isn't what it once was, and political debate is mostly an echo chamber, but I still must ask: Why don't Republicans care what Trump did in Ukraine?

If Obama used foreign aid to shake down a foreign government for personal gain, you would be in an uproar.

And I get (well, not really) if you think it doesn't rise to the level of Impeachment. But that's not the general GOP take. You just shrug it off and yell 'fake news!'

Anyone have the ability to answer rationally?

The continued feigning of ignorance to the crimes and election rigging of Biden/Obama's Administration/Kerry/Clinton/DNC and everyone connected to them in Ukraine which started long before Trump was even running make your thread, has been asked and answered in nearly every single thread about the fake hoax, the fake reports, the fake outrage, the deliberate downplaying and media blackout of Trump's massive victories for Americans freedoms, economic gains and security against threats from without and within, the fake impeachment...

Every criticism of, and attack on Trump is simply Deep State noise desperately working to prevent prosecution of America's most prolific treason ring ever.

Puppet on...

 

[Lanny]

The continued feigning of ignorance to the crimes and election rigging of Biden/Obama's Administration/Kerry/Clinton/DNC and everyone connected to them in Ukraine which started long before Trump was even running make your thread, has been asked and answered in nearly every single thread about the fake hoax, the fake reports, the fake outrage, the deliberate downplaying and media blackout of Trump's massive victories for Americans freedoms, economic gains and security against threats from without and within, the fake impeachment...

Every criticism of, and attack on Trump is simply Deep State noise desperately working to prevent prosecution of America's most prolific treason ring ever.

Puppet on...

Apparently that "Deep State noise" worked for the Democrats during the election in 2018 and appears to be working like a charm in this November's election. Funny how the truth always works out bad for the bad guys sooner or later.

 

[yankeesince59]

The continued feigning of ignorance to the crimes and election rigging of Biden/Obama's Administration/Kerry/Clinton/DNC and everyone connected to them in Ukraine which started long before Trump was even running make your thread, has been asked and answered in nearly every single thread about the fake hoax, the fake reports, the fake outrage, the deliberate downplaying and media blackout of Trump's massive victories for Americans freedoms, economic gains and security against threats from without and within, the fake impeachment...

Every criticism of, and attack on Trump is simply Deep State noise desperately working to prevent prosecution of America's most prolific treason ring ever.

Puppet on...

Oh please, just fucking stop.

Why is it when someone points out Trump's idiocy/ignorance/shortcomings, etc., etc., most Trump followers' default response it to divert to Clinton and/or Obama?...Clinton/Obama are NOT the POTUS, Trump is, and Trump and his "enablers robots" is the topic here.

 

[jonnyboy]

Nepotism happens. JFK had his brother be Attorney General. Trump has his kids. I try and help my kids. I get that. That's the way the world works.

But to be clear, Burmisma hiring Hunter is not nepotism.

Ok, you could say that since Burisma isn’t a member of the Biden family, it’s not nepotism. Fine, point taken. I personally don’t think he would have gotten that job if his last name wasn’t Biden though, so it skirts the line imo. The whole situation is greasy any way you look at it.

 

[Propagandist]

I understand this version of the OT Forum isn't what it once was, and political debate is mostly an echo chamber, but I still must ask: Why don't Republicans care what Trump did in Ukraine?

If Obama used foreign aid to shake down a foreign government for personal gain, you would be in an uproar.

And I get (well, not really) if you think it doesn't rise to the level of Impeachment. But that's not the general GOP take. You just shrug it off and yell 'fake news!'

Anyone have the ability to answer rationally?

This was going to be one of my PERILS OF TRIBALISM volumes because this is one of the factors that makes it difficult to respect people that take the position that Trump has never done anything wrong...

I would have added, that one of the most infuriating aspects of this argument, is when regular people bring up Hunter Biden. Let's say, that Hunter Biden was the worst person on the planet, and he took the job on the board of Burisma for the worst reasons, and Joe was involved, and the conspiracy theory about the hard drives is true, and everything is a cover up and everyone is corrupt and high on cocaine or whatever you want. Even if everything is true, it is still an impeachable offense. And that's the point isn't it?

Trump doesn't follow rules. He cheats systems. He's been sued for it numerous times. His foundation, his affairs, his "university," his casinos, his properties, his taxes, hell, he didn't even write Art of the Deal! Trump is the aforementioned bad hombre.

But I digress: if Joe Biden was corrupt and involved or whatever, then you go through the proper channels to prove it. Just like he tried to do with Hillary Clinton's emails. After all the talk and the puerile "lock her up" stuff, the State Department found "no persuasive evidence of systemic, deliberate mishandling of classified information." Now, while the language is a little hard to get at, my point is that Trump sullied the shit out of Clinton over nothing. In other words, just because Trump's gut "thinks" something doesn't give him the right to break all the rules to prove it.

So, yes, why don't Republicans care what Trump did in Ukraine? It's simple: Tribalism, and the belief that the other side is (somehow) worse.

 

[jonnyboy]

This was going to be one of my PERILS OF TRIBALISM volumes because this is one of the factors that makes it difficult to respect people that take the position that Trump has never done anything wrong...

I would have added, that one of the most infuriating aspects of this argument, is when regular people bring up Hunter Biden. Let's say, that Hunter Biden was the worst person on the planet, and he took the job on the board of Burisma for the worst reasons, and Joe was involved, and the conspiracy theory about the hard drives is true, and everything is a cover up and everyone is corrupt and high on cocaine or whatever you want. Even if everything is true, it is still an impeachable offense. And that's the point isn't it?

Trump doesn't follow rules. He cheats systems. He's been sued for it numerous times. His foundation, his affairs, his "university," his casinos, his properties, his taxes, hell, he didn't even write Art of the Deal! Trump is the aforementioned bad hombre.

But I digress: if Joe Biden was corrupt and involved or whatever, then you go through the proper channels to prove it. Just like he tried to do with Hillary Clinton's emails. After all the talk and the puerile "lock her up" stuff, the State Department found "no persuasive evidence of systemic, deliberate mishandling of classified information." Now, while the language is a little hard to get at, my point is that Trump sullied the shit out of Clinton over nothing. In other words, just because Trump's gut "thinks" something doesn't give him the right to break all the rules to prove it.

So, yes, why don't Republicans care what Trump did in Ukraine? It's simple: Tribalism, and the belief that the other side is (somehow) worse.

I really just enjoy the irony. There are way more egregious offenses Trump has committed that he could (and probably should) be impeached for. Selling weapons to SA to further their genocide in Yemen? Nearly starting a war with Iran by ambushing their top general WITHOUT congressional authorization?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
What’s wrong with these scandals that happen to have actually have dead bodies attached to them?
Oh yeah, the Democrats are equally guilty because they vote for, and/or actively support all these interventionist, for profit policies, they can’t say anything. In order to get their impeachment they have to go picking peanuts out of shit to find some half-assed scandal. It’s all bullshit theatre when you consider the actual dysfunction going on with the American political system as a whole.

 

[barfo]

I really just enjoy the irony. There are way more egregious offenses Trump has committed that he could (and probably should) be impeached for. Selling weapons to SA to further their genocide in Yemen? Nearly starting a war with Iran by ambushing their top general WITHOUT congressional authorization?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
What’s wrong with these scandals that happen to have actually have dead bodies attached to them?
Oh yeah, the Democrats are equally guilty because they vote for, and/or actively support all these interventionist, for profit policies, they can’t say anything. In order to get their impeachment they have to go picking peanuts out of shit to find some half-assed scandal. It’s all bullshit theatre when you consider the actual dysfunction going on with the American political system as a whole.

Isn't it the case that both the house and the senate voted against continuing to support SA vs Yemen? Trump vetoed it.
Not sure that makes the democrats complicit w.r.t. Yemen.

As for Iran, that happened after Trump had been impeached, so it's a little unfair to suggest they should have impeached him for that instead. In addition? Sure!

barfo

 

[Propagandist]

I really just enjoy the irony. There are way more egregious offenses Trump has committed that he could (and probably should) be impeached for. Selling weapons to SA to further their genocide in Yemen? Nearly starting a war with Iran by ambushing their top general WITHOUT congressional authorization?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
What’s wrong with these scandals that happen to have actually have dead bodies attached to them?
Oh yeah, the Democrats are equally guilty because they vote for, and/or actively support all these interventionist, for profit policies, they can’t say anything. In order to get their impeachment they have to go picking peanuts out of shit to find some half-assed scandal. It’s all bullshit theatre when you consider the actual dysfunction going on with the American political system as a whole.

There are processes for things. And it's not a "half-assed scandal." That's the whole point of this thread. The other things in life exist, but can't we parse them? That's what weirds me out about this time and age: it's like global ADHD. One thing at a time.

First up? Ukraine. The question: Why aren't Republicans outraged?

Because there are worse things? That's silly. Because "he did it first" or some variation: "they all do it"? Also silly. Or maybe, just maybe because everything rides on the narcissist in office, all chips in, fully invested, no plan B, etc, and your conscious or your pride or your integrity no longer meanings anything?

 

[andalusian]

I kind of expect to see Bill Cosby in that role, myself.

barfo

Nope.