OT Why Never Trumpers Should Bet on DeSantis Now (8 Viewers)

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SlyPokerDog said:
What the fuck?!?

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I need to look into this more, but this is what DeSantis said....

https://www.salon.com/2021/06/23/de...ssors-to-register-political-views-with-state/

"It used to be thought that a university campus was a place where you'd be exposed to a lot of different ideas," DeSantis said at a press conference following the bill signing. "Unfortunately, now the norm is, these are more intellectually repressive environments. You have orthodoxies that are promoted, and other viewpoints are shunned or even suppressed."

Republicans have long held that universities promote left-wing ideologies and discriminate against conservative students and staff.
 
If you listen to the threatening phone calls to Adam Kinzinger threatening his wife and baby or those poor election workers from Georgia who had been terrorized for telling the truth then this idea that universities repress intellectual progress in conservative students is bullshit ....the GOP is not the party of educated voters....and few have mastered the skill of independent thinking at all. Keep religion out of my government....it has no place and it does not protect my rights as a citizen. DeSantis is leaning hard towards McCarthyism ...black listing Americans in the name of God. Do not vote for this guy. He's not going to serve America...he's going to promote a theocratic govt like the Taliban. The GOP is the party of the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers and KKK. Who would vote for that base to control government? What DeSantis is doing is what Mao did with the red guard ....belittle the intellectuals and teachers and empower and arm the uneducated red guard youth ..their war on knowledge is dangerous and always leads to fascist authoritarianism .be on the right side of history.
 
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riverman said:
DeSantis is leaning hard towards McCarthyism ...black listing Americans in the name of God.
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I highly doubt it. That said, Christiansshould absolutley have a right to know (and also have a certain amount of input) as to what's being taught in the schools they help pay for. Scream separation of church and state all you'd like. There are still fundamental issues that transcend all of that.

I know you don't open my links, but what the heck....

https://econjwatch.org/File+download/944/LangbertQuainKleinSept2016.pdf?mimetype=pdf
 
ABM said:
I highly doubt it. That said, Christiansshould absolutley have a right to know (and also have a certain amount of input) as to what's being taught in the schools they help pay for. Scream separation of church and state all you'd like. There are still fundamental issues that transcend all of that.

I know you don't open my links, but what the heck....

https://econjwatch.org/File download/944/LangbertQuainKleinSept2016.pdf?mimetype=pdf
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Sorry but that's a bunch of bullshit.
 
ABM said:
I highly doubt it. That said, Christiansshould absolutley have a right to know (and also have a certain amount of input) as to what's being taught in the schools they help pay for. Scream separation of church and state all you'd like. There are still fundamental issues that transcend all of that.

I know you don't open my links, but what the heck....

https://econjwatch.org/File download/944/LangbertQuainKleinSept2016.pdf?mimetype=pdf
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Schools should not teach children things which are not based on fact/science. And no public money should go toward teaching a religion based curriculum.

But no public money should go toward preventing people from practicing any peaceful religion either.

School days and school hours should be dedicated to learning a fact based curriculum approved by the department of education.
 
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ABM said:
I highly doubt it. That said, Christiansshould absolutley have a right to know (and also have a certain amount of input) as to what's being taught in the schools they help pay for. Scream separation of church and state all you'd like. There are still fundamental issues that transcend all of that.

I know you don't open my links, but what the heck....

https://econjwatch.org/File download/944/LangbertQuainKleinSept2016.pdf?mimetype=pdf
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There are bible schools all over the world.......I'm a retired teacher and of the thousands of students I've taught, no parent ever asked me about syllabus material...not christian, not buddhist or atheist....theology is a course you can study any time you like ..it's offered as a major in college...how this stifles your belief system is not reality....what is being done however will attempt to stifle my belief system and I have as many rights as you do..you don't get to take them away from all the diverse demographics just because you buy into that cult. Adam Kinzinger by the way majored in Theology in college...and he disagrees with you.
 
riverman said:
There are bible schools all over the world.......I'm a retired teacher and of the thousands of students I've taught, no parent ever asked me about syllabus material...not christian, not buddhist or atheist....theology is a course you can study any time you like ..it's offered as a major in college...how this stifles your belief system is not reality....what is being done however will attempt to stifle my belief system and I have as many rights as you do..you don't get to take them away from all the diverse demographics just because you buy into that cult. Adam Kinzinger by the way majored in Theology in college...and he disagrees with you.
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I'm not sugesting our public schools become Bible schools. I'm simply talking about general (policical?) belief systems being injected into our schools.

By the way, I'd be curious to know your thoughts on Common Core.
 
ABM said:
I'm not sugesting our public schools become Bible schools.
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Your chosen leaders are....bringing prayer back to public schools where it has no place. Pray at your church or at home but don't make non Christian children feel pressured to pray to your god in schools . Religion has no place in public education other than in the context of history ...religious wars...etc. The rituals need to be left out of our education system period. I believe you also said you were pro book banning.....that's the opposite of education ..that's oppression.
Common Core has elements that are very valuable but applies mostly to math and English...the math I'm totally behind...math should be taught in context ..not abstract formula at least to children because until they have a basic math skillset...they will not own the skill but memorize it for a test and forget it after the test....it's why in asia the abacus is taught to preschool kids...this gives them a solid base to calculate from without memorizing algebraic formulas. My son learned abacus at a very young age and was ahead of the curve in math class. As a teacher I got hired because I had several complete and original 24 week syllabus courses that covered my subjects...I was not a text book teacher, I was a black board teacher...schools valued my program, I could teach the way I wanted and it was very successful....my syllabus is still used today at the college I worked at in Hualien. One of the most important elements of retaining knowledge is not studying a subject while tired....a problem for many students. I encouraged students to not stay up late cramming for a test but to go to bed early and get up at dawn and study for the test the day of the test.....my son did this and earned a full academic scholarship to Oregon State....it works.
 
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riverman said:
Your chosen leaders are....bringing prayer back to public schools where it has no place. Pray at your church or at home but don't make non Christian children feel pressured to pray to your god in schools . Religion has no place in public education other than in the context of history ...religious wars...etc. The rituals need to be left out of our education system period. I believe you also said you were pro book banning.....that's the opposite of education ..that's oppression.
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Either way, I thought it was wrong for that Washington State school to fire the football coach for praying. SCOTUS saw it that way, too. He had every right to pray before games. That constitutes freedom of speech.
 
ABM said:
Either way, I thought it was wrong for that Washington State school to fire the football coach for praying. SCOTUS saw it that way, too. He had every right to pray before games. That constitutes freedom of speech.
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A teacher quietly worshipping without causing a distraction is one thing.

A teacher creating a distraction or coercing students into worshipping is another.

If there is video evidence of it being a distraction and a paper trail of warnings then I would hope the court would uphold the school's right to protect the sanctity of the education or event.

If there is no such evidence then I would hope the courts would support the teacher.

This can be done responsibly.
 
ABM said:
Either way, I thought it was wrong for that Washington State school to fire the football coach for praying. SCOTUS saw it that way, too. He had every right to pray before games. That constitutes freedom of speech.
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If you need to pray to win a football game you might not be a great coach....he can pray in silence but if he's leading his team with his prayer and forgetting the Muslim and Jews or atheists on the team, then he's selling his religious ritual to people who aren't there for that reason. I don't know anything about this story but I won't judge the school for hiring or firing whoever they want. If he'd taken a prayer rug and faced the east towards Mecca and starting chanting in Arabic do you think he'd have been fired? Or if he burned incense and fed rice and drinks to photos of his ancestors would he have been fired? If he quoted Karl Marx in the huddle would he have been fired? What does the bible say about football coaching?
 
riverman said:
If you need to pray to win a football game you might not be a great coach....he can pray in silence but if he's leading his team with his prayer and forgetting the Muslim and Jews or atheists on the team, then he's selling his religious ritual to people who aren't there for that reason. I don't know anything about this story but I won't judge the school for hiring or firing whoever they want. If he'd taken a prayer rug and faced the east towards Mecca and starting chanting in Arabic do you think he'd have been fired? Or if he burned incense and fed rice and drinks to photos of his ancestors would he have been fired? If he quoted Karl Marx in the huddle would he have been fired? What does the bible say about football coaching?
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It's an interesting case:

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/i...-coach-ruling-constitutional-right-pray-field

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday sided with a football coach from Washington state who sought to kneel and pray on the field after games.

The court ruled 6-3 along ideological lines for Joseph Kennedy, an assistant coach for Bremerton High School's varsity football team and head coach of the junior varsity team for seven years.

Kennedy started coaching at the school in 2008 and initially prayed alone on the 50-yard line at the end of games. Students started joining him, and over time he began to deliver a short, inspirational talk with religious references. Kennedy did that for years and also led students in locker room prayers. The school district learned what he was doing in 2015 and asked him to stop out of concerns the district could be sued for violating students' religious freedom rights.

Kennedy stopped leading students in prayer in the locker room and on the field but wanted to continue kneeling and praying on the field himself after games. The school asked him not to do so while still "on duty'' as a coach after the game. When he continued, the school put him on paid leave. The head coach of the varsity team later recommended he not be rehired because, among other things, he failed to follow district policy.

Kennedy sued, and with the support of conservative activists, his case ended up at the Supreme Court.

During an oral argument, the court's three more liberal members compared Kennedy's prayers to the hypothetical prayers of other school officials, which would not be permitted. Members of the court's six-member conservative majority, meanwhile, asked questions comparing Kennedy's prayers to other, non-religious actions.

Justice Clarence Thomas asked how the school district would respond if rather than taking a knee for prayer, the coach took a knee on the field during the national anthem in "moral opposition to racism." Dissenting Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote that the decision "sets us further down a perilous path in forcing states to entangle themselves with religion.''

Monday, the justices ruled that the coach's prayer was protected by the First Amendment.

"The Constitution and the best of our traditions counsel mutual respect and tolerance, not censorship and suppression, for religious and nonreligious views alike," wrote Justice Neil Gorsuch for the majority.

The case forced the justices to wrestle with how to balance the religious and free speech rights of teachers and coaches with the rights of students not to feel pressured into participating in religious practices. The outcome could strengthen the acceptability of some religious practices in the public school setting.

"This is just so awesome. All I've ever wanted was to be back on the field with my guys," Kennedy said in response to Monday's opinion. "I'm incredibly grateful to the Supreme Court, my fantastic legal team, and everyone who has supported us. I thank God for answering our prayers and sustaining my family through this long battle."

Lawyers for the school district noted that Kennedy has moved to Florida and said it was unclear if he truly intends to move back across the country to Washington state.

In a statement, the Bremerton School District and its attorneys at Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, said the decision undermines the separation required by the Constitution. The school district said in a statement that it had "followed the law and acted to protect the religious freedom of all students and their families.''

The decision is the latest in a line of Supreme Court rulings for religious plaintiffs. In another recent example, the court ruled that Maine can't exclude religious schools from a program that offers tuition aid for private education, a decision that could ease religious organizations' access to taxpayer money.
 
ABM said:
Either way, I thought it was wrong for that Washington State school to fire the football coach for praying. SCOTUS saw it that way, too. He had every right to pray before games. That constitutes freedom of speech.
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I too have no problem with the coach praying on the field. But expecting his players to join him is a bridge too far. (Refusing to pray is also freedom of speech). He says that they are not required to participate, and maybe they aren't. But I know too damn well that what he says and what the reality is could very well be two different things. How does a kid know if he is sitting the bench based on skill level or because he chose not to pray? And I have no doubt that coach knows that and capitalizes on it. It's too fine of a line when you bring human nature (With all its failings) into it. This coach might be a man amongst men but he is still a human. Prayer is a very, very personal thing (at least to me) and I don't get why he can't just pray somewhere in private, rather than thrust himself into the public eye as some kind of martyr.

One of the most valuable lessons I ever learned from the Bible was the parable about the rich Pharisee, standing in the temple, loudly proclaiming himself as a holy, devout man, declaring his eligibility to enter heaven, while denying the poor humble beggar access. The Lord tore that arrogant Pharisee a new asshole and made it clear that the beggar had more right to the Kingdom of God than any self centered fat cat. Unfair or not, I see that coach as the Pharisee. He's making it all about himself and doesn't get that God is watching. His lack of humility and acceptance is a direct contravention of Jesus's words. Again, I believe the coach is sincere......but also incredibly self centered and arrogant. When he had a chance to be humble and set an even better example, he chose to make it about himself. Sounds like too many other "Christians" these days.......
 
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ABM said:
It's an interesting case:

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/i...-coach-ruling-constitutional-right-pray-field

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday sided with a football coach from Washington state who sought to kneel and pray on the field after games.

The court ruled 6-3 along ideological lines for Joseph Kennedy, an assistant coach for Bremerton High School's varsity football team and head coach of the junior varsity team for seven years.

Kennedy started coaching at the school in 2008 and initially prayed alone on the 50-yard line at the end of games. Students started joining him, and over time he began to deliver a short, inspirational talk with religious references. Kennedy did that for years and also led students in locker room prayers. The school district learned what he was doing in 2015 and asked him to stop out of concerns the district could be sued for violating students' religious freedom rights.

Kennedy stopped leading students in prayer in the locker room and on the field but wanted to continue kneeling and praying on the field himself after games. The school asked him not to do so while still "on duty'' as a coach after the game. When he continued, the school put him on paid leave. The head coach of the varsity team later recommended he not be rehired because, among other things, he failed to follow district policy.

Kennedy sued, and with the support of conservative activists, his case ended up at the Supreme Court.

During an oral argument, the court's three more liberal members compared Kennedy's prayers to the hypothetical prayers of other school officials, which would not be permitted. Members of the court's six-member conservative majority, meanwhile, asked questions comparing Kennedy's prayers to other, non-religious actions.

Justice Clarence Thomas asked how the school district would respond if rather than taking a knee for prayer, the coach took a knee on the field during the national anthem in "moral opposition to racism." Dissenting Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote that the decision "sets us further down a perilous path in forcing states to entangle themselves with religion.''

Monday, the justices ruled that the coach's prayer was protected by the First Amendment.

"The Constitution and the best of our traditions counsel mutual respect and tolerance, not censorship and suppression, for religious and nonreligious views alike," wrote Justice Neil Gorsuch for the majority.

The case forced the justices to wrestle with how to balance the religious and free speech rights of teachers and coaches with the rights of students not to feel pressured into participating in religious practices. The outcome could strengthen the acceptability of some religious practices in the public school setting.

"This is just so awesome. All I've ever wanted was to be back on the field with my guys," Kennedy said in response to Monday's opinion. "I'm incredibly grateful to the Supreme Court, my fantastic legal team, and everyone who has supported us. I thank God for answering our prayers and sustaining my family through this long battle."

Lawyers for the school district noted that Kennedy has moved to Florida and said it was unclear if he truly intends to move back across the country to Washington state.

In a statement, the Bremerton School District and its attorneys at Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, said the decision undermines the separation required by the Constitution. The school district said in a statement that it had "followed the law and acted to protect the religious freedom of all students and their families.''

The decision is the latest in a line of Supreme Court rulings for religious plaintiffs. In another recent example, the court ruled that Maine can't exclude religious schools from a program that offers tuition aid for private education, a decision that could ease religious organizations' access to taxpayer money.
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The guy chose to mix his religious rituals into the job he was hired to do and continued to do that even when it's been clearly stated that that had no place in the schools sports culture...so he did it anyway and got fired...as I said...if he were practicing a Hopi rain dance or chanting Tibetan prayers or drawing a Pentagram and worshipping Satan....all these things are frowned upon whether you have a soft spot for the Christian rituals or not. No exceptions should be made....and again ABM.....post your own words and stop linking you library...if you read this you could have made your point with 3 sentences. Your cue cards are unnecessary..you should be capable of expressing yourself with your own words...or maybe I'm wrong about that.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
I see that coach as the Pharisee. He's making it all about himself and doesn't get that God is watching. His lack of humility and acceptance is a direct contravention of Jesus's words.
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Hey, I see you know the Bible some. That's cool! Hey, check out some of the things Paul did. He was kind of out there.
 
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