Will Miles play tonight? (Merged)

[Денг Гордон]

Well, I'm happy you can feel good again, but I question your reasons for doing so. If you believe that Miles has proved that his knee is not career ending, then why don't you feel icky about Portland trying to stop him playing? On the other hand, why does the fact that he played (and possibly played well, although in garbage time) prove that his injury is not career ending? I bet Cuttino Mobley could play even better, but that doesn't mean that his heart condition isn't legitimately career-ending.
Finally, why does this prove that no gamesmanship is going on? Memphis might be as surprised as some of us were that he played well. In fact, Memphis might now be a bit pissed off, because it's going to look bad when they cut him after a couple more games...

Bulls said Eddy Curry's heart condition was career ending. He is in his 4th season since the incident now.

Darius Miles pretty obviously hasn't underwent a career ending injury, because his career hasn't ended, and he's met the 10 game requisite that is needed to prove that it was not a career ending injury.

The only question that is really left, is whether Stern will levy a penalty (ala Joe Smith) against the Blazers for trying to circumvent the CBA, and their other dirty dealings.

 

[Ed O]

The issue was never whether he was capable of going out and playing a game at an NBA level. It was whether his knee will hold up to the rigors of playing an NBA schedule. We're going to have to wait a bit to see which side is blowing smoke.

Why is that the issue?

Who defines that as the issue, other than some Blazers fans?

Ed O.

 

[e_blazer]

I'm really hoping the Grizz give him more run so he can either blow out his knee or resurrect his career.

Exactly.

If he plays regularly at around 10 or more minutes a night with no ill effects, then the Blazers are going to look pretty foolish. On the other hand, if after a few games Darius' knee is swolen up to the size of a basketball, then we'll know that the Blazers' and league doctors were right. If that happens, I'd expect the Blazers to appeal the whole 10-game baloney. Worst case for everybody would seem to be if he just plays spot minutes so that we have no real clue as to what his capabilities are.

 

[Ed O]

The only question that is really left, is whether Stern will levy a penalty (ala Joe Smith) against the Blazers for trying to circumvent the CBA, and their other dirty dealings.

I don't see that as a question at all. There are two potential areas where one could see "dirty dealings".

1. The original waiving where the Blazers sought (and received, albeit temporarily) salary cap relief. There is NO WAY the Blazers are punished for their actions here. League-approved doctors confirmed that Miles had damage consistent with a medical retirement.

2. The email sent out to the other teams. I believe the NBA has already said that it will not punish the Blazers.

Where else could the Blazers, conceivably, be punished for their actions?

Ed O.

 

[e_blazer]

Why is that the issue?

Who defines that as the issue, other than some Blazers fans?

Ed O.

Boy, you really enjoy playing the contrarian, don't you Ed?

The issue is whether Darius can continue an NBA "career". A single game does not constitute a career.

 

[Ed O]

Boy, you really enjoy playing the contrarian, don't you Ed?

No. I think that most people here are misinterpreting the situation and I'm trying to convince people that my position is correct.

The issue is whether Darius can continue an NBA "career". A single game does not constitute a career.

No. The issues are (a) whether, had Darius stayed retired, if his injury would have been sufficient cause to give the Blazers cap relief, and (b) whether Miles will play in 10 games in a single season, causing the Blazers to lose that cap relief.

Those two things are NOT the same as how you present the issue.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

Bulls said Eddy Curry's heart condition was career ending. He is in his 4th season since the incident now.

Darius Miles pretty obviously hasn't underwent a career ending injury, because his career hasn't ended, and he's met the 10 game requisite that is needed to prove that it was not a career ending injury.

The only question that is really left, is whether Stern will levy a penalty (ala Joe Smith) against the Blazers for trying to circumvent the CBA, and their other dirty dealings.

The league and a doctor approved by the players' union didn't, however, nor did the Bulls go through the process the Blazers did.

Why can't people get a grasp of the actual facts?

 

[MARIS61]

Re: Miles just schooled LeBron

1. We didn't want him, to play or otherwise, and

2. The NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement, the league, the players union, and an independent doctor all had to sign off on Miles being medically retired. Give the "poor, poor Darius, its all a scam" a rest.

Funny thing is, you'd think the sensible thing would have been to ASK DARIUS.

 

[PapaG]

No. The issues are (a) whether, had Darius stayed retired, if his injury would have been sufficient cause to give the Blazers cap relief, and (b) whether Miles will play in 10 games in a single season, causing the Blazers to lose that cap relief.

Those two things are NOT the same as how you present the issue.

Ed O.

You are forgetting a third issue.

(C) Why weren't the Blazers allowed to claim a waived player? You argued before that the only thing that mattered regarding Darius being waived originally by the Blazers was the fact that he was waived. The "career-ending" judgement of it held no water with you. I tried to argue that the Blazers would have never waived him, but by letter of the CBA, your take is actually more accurate if intent is not taken into consideration.

If the above is the case, and if the reports of the NBA not allowing a claim by the Blazers on an active player, why did the NBA not allow one team to claim a waived player while it allowed the other 29 teams to do so? Where is this rule in the CBA? It is at the very least something that an arbritrator would have to consider.

Also, since Daruis made some shots tonight, who is to say the Blazers weren't looking for help at SF now that Outlaw will apparently be the back-up PF off of the bench.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Miles just schooled LeBron

Funny thing is, you'd think the sensible thing would have been to ASK DARIUS.

Darius had to sign the paperwork in order to 'retire' after his medical evaluation.

Good God...

 

[MARIS61]

Boy, you really enjoy playing the contrarian, don't you Ed?

The issue is whether Darius can continue an NBA "career". A single game does not constitute a career.

That issue is moot after his next game.

The issue is did the Blazers break any laws, and can they repair the PR damage they've done to themselves.

Since this is probably the only way to prevent KP from going after Kobe, I'm pleased as punch at how it all turned out, but I wish they had just accepted it with a little bit of class rather than what they did.

 

[Денг Гордон]

I don't see that as a question at all. There are two potential areas where one could see "dirty dealings".

1. The original waiving where the Blazers sought (and received, albeit temporarily) salary cap relief. There is NO WAY the Blazers are punished for their actions here. League-approved doctors confirmed that Miles had damage consistent with a medical retirement.

2. The email sent out to the other teams. I believe the NBA has already said that it will not punish the Blazers.

Where else could the Blazers, conceivably, be punished for their actions?

Ed O.

The defamation and lies the Blazers fed about Darius during the pre-season when other teams were looking at him. Trying to claim him off waivers. Then the email.

The problem with the Blazers trying to claim Darius off waivers is that it's insurance fraud. What would the NBA's insurance company think about a team signing a guy who they said couldn't play basketball, footing insurance with the bill?

What the Blazers tried to do by claiming Miles off waivers and forceably ending his career is the worst thing a front office has done in NBA history. When Eddy Curry had his heart problem, the Bulls were willing to let other team's doctors decide whether Curry was fit to play, and offered an annuity to Curry if other teams rules that he was unfit to play. Joe Smith, just trying to help a player out.

What the Blazers were trying to do was as scumbaggish as you can get.

 

[e_blazer]

No. The issues are (a) whether, had Darius stayed retired, if his injury would have been sufficient cause to give the Blazers cap relief, and (b) whether Miles will play in 10 games in a single season, causing the Blazers to lose that cap relief.

Those two things are NOT the same as how you present the issue.

Ed O.

Well, (a) was already answered inasmuch as the league-appointed doctor said that Darius' knee injury was career-ending. Given that determination, until Darius has played in 10 NBA games there is no question as to whether the Blazers would be afforded cap relief.

Under the provisions of the CBA, you are correct in that if (b) happens, the Blazers lose the cap relief. Those are the rules in place and I doubt that the NBA will willingly diverge from them. However, it's pretty clear (to me at least) that this rule doesn't get at the reality of whether Darius' knee is sufficiently damaged that he cannot continue to play NBA basketball for a reasonable period of time without his knee breaking down.

If the situation is as the Blazers' doctor and league-appointed doctor said, I think it would have been unethical for the Blazers to continue to play Darius, even if he wanted to. I think it would also be unethical for the Grizzlies or any other NBA team to continue to play him in that situation. On the other hand, if the medical opinions offered last year were overly pessimistic, then Darius should be allowed to try to resurrect his career.

What would truly suck, IMO, is if the medical opinions upon which Darius' retirement was based were correct, Darius' knee breaks down, and yet the Blazers are forced to pay a penalty, both financially and in lost personnel opportunities, simply because the CBA rule on this point is obviously flawed.

 

[MARIS61]

Also, since Daruis made some shots tonight, who is to say the Blazers weren't looking for help at SF now that Outlaw will apparently be the back-up PF off of the bench.

Anyone with at least a small portion of a functioning brain.

Let it go.

 

[PapaG]

That issue is moot after his next game.

The issue is did the Blazers break any laws, and can they repair the PR damage they've done to themselves.

Since this is probably the only way to prevent KP from going after Kobe, I'm pleased as punch at how it all turned out, but I wish they had just accepted it with a little bit of class rather than what they did.

No it isn't. Let's say that Darius starts averaging 20 ppg. The Blazers, on record, tried to claim him on waivers and were told they could not by the NBA. Show me in the CBA where the NBA has the right to deny a waiver claim based solely on perceived intent. The NBA also denied Miles a guaranteed contract through the rest of the year.

This is far from "moot".

 

[PapaG]

Anyone with at least a small portion of a functioning brain.

Let it go.

I'm talking about a legal argument, not your loose grasp of the facts.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

The only question that is really left, is whether Stern will levy a penalty (ala Joe Smith) against the Blazers for trying to circumvent the CBA, and their other dirty dealings.

That question has been answered . . . league is not going to fine the Blazers.

Good call by the league.

 

[PapaG]

Originally Posted by Денг Гордон
The only question that is really left, is whether Stern will levy a penalty (ala Joe Smith) against the Blazers for trying to circumvent the CBA, and their other dirty dealings.

^^^^The only thing worse than a troll is a troll who has no idea what they are talking about.^^^^

 

[MARIS61]

I'm talking about a legal argument, not your loose grasp of the facts.

The Blazers have no arguement. They are soooooooooo on the wrong side legally, and more important morally.

Miles will play more than Jerryd Bayless does this season.

Maybe if you call your policeman friend he can get the FBI to look into it but...

 

[Minstrel]

Well, I'm happy you can feel good again, but I question your reasons for doing so. If you believe that Miles has proved that his knee is not career ending, then why don't you feel icky about Portland trying to stop him playing?

Because it was a reasonable belief at the time, especially with an NBA-appointed doctor making the diagnosis. If I discovered that the Blazers didn't really have any reason to believe that this injury could be career-ending, I would feel negatively toward the franchise.

On the other hand, why does the fact that he played (and possibly played well, although in garbage time) prove that his injury is not career ending?

It doesn't prove it, but it doesn't significantly lower the likelihood of it. There are two main things that I consider legitimately career-ending: the injury eliminates the player's ability to play at a high enough level to be able to play in the NBA or the player would be putting his life at risk if he continued playing.

Perhaps this is just an anomaly and he will fail to play at an NBA level within a few games. But his playing at a high level now is pretty good evidence that he still has the capability. And this is definitely not a life-threatening situation.

Finally, why does this prove that no gamesmanship is going on? Memphis might be as surprised as some of us were that he played well.

I should re-phrase. What I am glad about is that this won't simply be gamesmanship. If Miles couldn't really play basketball, but was going to hobble (figuratively) onto the court in a few games just to hurt the Blazers, that wouldn't sit well. If Miles can legitimately play basketball and wants to, he should and Portland shouldn't be getting the cap exemption. Whether Memphis has an ulterior motive is irrelevant to that.

 

[Minstrel]

Not exactly.

The issue was never whether he was capable of going out and playing a game at an NBA level. It was whether his knee will hold up to the rigors of playing an NBA schedule. We're going to have to wait a bit to see which side is blowing smoke.

No, that's not the issue. Lots of players can't hold up to the rigors of playing an NBA schedule. Tracy McGrady can't. Yao Ming doesn't seem able to. Shaq often couldn't. That isn't what determines being a capable of having an NBA career. The question is whether Miles is able to play at a high enough level often enough to be worth a roster spot. Sure, we can wait and see, but Miles playing well now (in addition to doctors' reports from other teams this season) is pretty strong evidence that he is still capable of continuing his NBA career.

 

[MARIS61]

Not exactly.

The issue was never whether he was capable of going out and playing a game at an NBA level. It was whether his knee will hold up to the rigors of playing an NBA schedule. We're going to have to wait a bit to see which side is blowing smoke.

Many players enjoyed long careers despite their knees NOT being able to "hold up to the rigors of playing an NBA schedule".

Sabas, for example, who played for several quite productive years in excrutiating pain.

 

[Денг Гордон]

^^^^The only thing worse than a troll is a troll who has no idea what they are talking about.^^^^

You do realize that anyone can post on any of the message boards at S2? Topics regarding the Blazers are posted in the Blazers forum, to post on a topic of interest such as this, the threads are likely to be in the Blazers forum.

There is no rule on S2 about having to be blindly pro-team of whatever team forum you're posting in on S2.

 

[PapaG]

The Blazers have no arguement. They are soooooooooo on the wrong side legally, and more important morally.

You have demonstrated such a glaring lack of understanding other than your emotional reaction on this matter I just have to laugh.

Miles will play more than Jerryd Bayless does this season.

Irrelevant

Maybe if you call your policeman friend he can get the FBI to look into it but...

Maybe if you continue to call McMillan a racist, you'll be the biggest troll on the board.

 

[PapaG]

You do realize that anyone can post on any of the message boards at S2? Topics regarding the Blazers are posted in the Blazers forum, to post on a topic of interest such as this, the threads are likely to be in the Blazers forum.

There is no rule on S2 about having to be blindly pro-team of whatever team forum you're posting in on S2.

I realize that. I also realize that spewing ignorance and posting cryptically about the "dirty dealings" of the Blazers are the marking of an ignorant troll.

 

[PapaG]

No, that's not the issue. Lots of players can't hold up to the rigors of playing an NBA schedule. Tracy McGrady can't. Yao Ming doesn't seem able to. Shaq often couldn't. That isn't what determines being a capable of having an NBA career. The question is whether Miles is able to play at a high enough level often enough to be worth a roster spot. Sure, we can wait and see, but Miles playing well now (in addition to doctors' reports from other teams this season) is pretty strong evidence that he is still capable of continuing his NBA career.

Again, that's great and all, but if he is able to be productive, the NBA denied the one team that wanted to guarantee him a contract the opportunity to do so.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me the NBA being allowed to do this in the CBA or in any league rule.

 

[Денг Гордон]

No, that's not the issue. Lots of players can't hold up to the rigors of playing an NBA schedule. Tracy McGrady can't. Yao Ming doesn't seem able to. Shaq often couldn't. That isn't what determines being a capable of having an NBA career. The question is whether Miles is able to play at a high enough level often enough to be worth a roster spot. Sure, we can wait and see, but Miles playing well now (in addition to doctors' reports from other teams this season) is pretty strong evidence that he is still capable of continuing his NBA career.

My understanding of the CBA rule is that the NBA has determined 10 games a year the amount that represents a career in the NBA. (Something like $120k for Miles). $100k+ a year seems like a pretty good career.

 

[Minstrel]

Again, that's great and all, but if he is able to be productive, the NBA denied the one team that wanted to guarantee him a contract the opportunity to do so.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me the NBA being allowed to do this in the CBA or in any league rule.

As I recall, this came up with Alan Houston...the rules prevent a team and player from doing a "medical retirement" and then having the team re-sign the player, thereby avoiding the cap hit while the player still gets to play for the team at full salary.

I don't know the CBA well enough to tell you the section or rule. This is just what I've read reported.

 

[PapaG]

As I recall, this came up with Alan Houston...the rules prevent a team and player from doing a "medical retirement" and then having the team re-sign the player, thereby avoiding the cap hit while the player still gets to play for the team at full salary.I don't know the CBA well enough to tell you the section or rule. This is just what I've read reported.

Actually, that had to do with paying the original salary and still having it count toward the cap.

As I understand it, it had nothing to do with the team waiving a player being able to bring him back.

I think David Stern messed up on this, and the chain of events after the denial of a claim make perfect sense when viewed through that prism.

Another hypothetical. Miles starts averaging 30 ppg, the Grizz beat out the Blazers for the 8th spot due to his incredible play, and the NBA denied the original claim by the Blazers to obtain a player that they had every legal right to claim and then sign. Now THAT would be fun!

 

[Bartholomew Hunt]

It was a real pleasure watching Miles do what he did against Cleveland. Imagine if he had two good knees! OMG, the guy is done! What an absolute joy to see this happen.