2024 Training Camp thread

[Phatguysrule]

Super hard to win with a short non generational shoot first pg that plays 0 defense as your best player.

I like Dame enough that I would have been more than happy to give that a real shot with some good players around him.

I wish he'd gotten the opportunity. If he'd had more help he may have been able to be a better defender without having to conserve so much for the offensive end.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

that 'white dude' was just traded for Malcolm Brogdon plus TWO first round picks. There is no way that Ant would get traded for a return like that

last season, among 'qualified' NBA players, Simons ranked:

PER: 87th out of 185
TS%: 126th out of 193
3ptFG%: 65th out of 160
winshare/48: 145th out of 185
BPM: 96th out of 185

he's a little above average as a player. Meaning his presence doesn't help the Blazers, and his absence wouldn't hurt

The last sentence is incorrect. Even an average player is much better than replacement level player. Without Ant we're playing a G league those minutes and it's a clear downgrade. We can't acquire an average player at no cost. We can only freely acquire replacement level 12th men type of players.

Now long term or when looking at contracts vs production, etc that could be more of an argument that an Ant level player isn't how to bear build a team.

Really all the 5 vets this team has provided very little if any long term benefit.

 

[wizenheimer]

The last sentence is incorrect. Even an average player is much better than replacement level player. Without Ant we're playing a G league those minutes and it's a clear downgrade.

I said he was a bit above average as a player, but maybe I should have said he was a bit above average among rotation players. On the other hand, the NBA average for PER is 15.0. Last year was Ant had his highest PER at 15.9; his career mark is 13.7. His career winshare/48 is .051 and his mark last season was .068. The NBA average is .100. And, the NBA average for BPM is 0.0. Ant's career mark is -1.5 and last year was 0.2. Those numbers point toward pretty average. More than that is those metrics tend to favor offense, which is Ant's strength. Gauging for defense at the same time would change the equation

 

[Phatguysrule]

The last sentence is incorrect. Even an average player is much better than replacement level player. Without Ant we're playing a G league those minutes and it's a clear downgrade. We can't acquire an average player at no cost. We can only freely acquire replacement level 12th men type of players.

Now long term or when looking at contracts vs production, etc that could be more of an argument that an Ant level player isn't how to bear build a team.

Really all the 5 vets this team has provided very little if any long term benefit.

Exactly. Ant isn't good enough and we can't trade him for a player who is.

The only way to turn Ant into a player good enough is to trade him for draft capital and pick a player who may be.

 

[CJ_is_Gone]

Does anyone read/follow Marang?

I saw this post about his article on Sharpe. I'd like to know if it is worth it...



I don't care about the $5. Im much more concerned about the hassle of signing up for patreon & then making sure that Im not on a recurring subscription.

That pain in the ass cost is really high for me.

Any feedback is appreciated

 

[wizenheimer]

Super hard to win with a short non generational shoot first pg that plays 0 defense as your best player.

CP3 plays great defense as a short pass-first PG and hasn't won a championship. On the other hand, Curry plays poor defense as a shoot first PG and has won 4.

I think most of us, all thru the Dame years wanted the Blazers to land another player at Dame's level. That the Blazers didn't succeed with Dame isn't Dame's fault. It the fault of management

It's true, Dame wasn't a Lebron or a Giannis or a Jokic. So, for some of the posters here, the solution, apparently, was to trade Dame so the Blazers could get better. But here's the issue: Portland drafted Clyde Drexler in 1983. 29 years later, the Blazers drafted Dame in 2012. Almost 3 decades separate Portland adding Drexler and Portland adding Dame. If it happens again, it will be 2041 before the Blazers draft a player at the Drexler/Dame level. 17 years from now. It might be that people will walk on Mars before the Blazers have a player as talented as Dame

 

[THE HCP]

Hurley holds intense practices and wins rings.
Billups holds easy practices and wins nothing.

Oh so THAT’S the secret. “Intense precatices”?

 

[sheed30]

lol...you didn't "debunk" anything

this forum is about the Blazers. This thread is about the Blazers training camp. Ant/Grant are Blazers; they participated in the training camp press conference; they will be there for training camp. There have been rumors about them being shopped, especially Grant. Talking about Ant/Grant is definitely on topic, whether you like it or not. Talking about their potential return from a trade is on topic. Talking about their strengths and weaknesses is on topic. Talking about their skills and flaws is on topic.

You don't have to participate in all of the discussions a thread like this will generate. And you're capable of putting posters on ignore if what they say bugs you

Lol, I sure did debunk the heck out of that big Negative Nancy and one other dude and it was fun, watching them put their foot in their mouth over dumb comments that made no sense cause they just want to hate on Ant. And stop using your little stats metric it’s laughable.

I don’t need to put you on ignore, I simply just scroll by your post when I see your name. I’m only wasting my time replying to you since you wanted to try and be funny with your little comment that was a poor taste at a troll job.

you went and wrote all of that about “this is training camp talk” and it’s clear as day with anyone with common sense that this isnt training camp talk and this dumb Ant/Grant talk taking place again for the 20 plus time over many different threads by a lot of the same people and all you guys are doing it’s repeating yourself over and over.

Tons of good solid positive posters have left this place if you didn’t realize or just don’t post anymore and it’s now worse than Blazers Edge here with you little negative Nancys posting 24/7 cause you guys nothing else to do with your days.

the NBA season will start soon and you little negative Nancy’s will be drowned out.

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

CP3 plays great defense as a short pass-first PG and hasn't won a championship. On the other hand, Curry plays poor defense as a shoot first PG and has won 4.

I think most of us, all thru the Dame years wanted the Blazers to land another player at Dame's level. That the Blazers didn't succeed with Dame isn't Dame's fault. It the fault of management

It's true, Dame wasn't a Lebron or a Giannis or a Jokic. So, for some of the posters here, the solution, apparently, was to trade Dame so the Blazers could get better. But here's the issue: Portland drafted Clyde Drexler in 1983. 29 years later, the Blazers drafted Dame in 2012. Almost 3 decades separate Portland adding Drexler and Portland adding Dame. If it happens again, it will be 2041 before the Blazers draft a player at the Drexler/Dame level. 17 years from now. It might be that people will walk on Mars before the Blazers have a player as talented as Dame

Oden was in that 29 year interim. Talented as can be but broken physically.

Likewise Roy, a few very good years but limited longevity due to physical limitations.

it wasn’t that long between those two & Dame. Perhaps we are now overdue for our next or perhaps we already have next.

Don’t equate longevity with talent.

I get the point you are making but I think it is not talent, but impact that is the key.

Sharpe may be talented as can be but will he put everything together enough to have the kind of impact that Dame & Drexler had.

I’d take a Walton who was incredibly talented and had a huge, but short-term impact.

Of course, if we had Walton, half the board would bemoan his constant ailments and push that he should be traded so we could get someone we could rely on being able to play.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Oden was in that 29 year interim. Talented as can be but broken physically.

Likewise Roy, a few very good years but limited longevity due to physical limitations.

it wasn’t that long between those two & Dame. Perhaps we are now overdue for our next or perhaps we already have next.

Don’t equate longevity with talent.

I get the point you are making but I think it is not talent, but impact that is the key.

Sharpe may be talented as can be but will he put everything together enough to have the kind of impact that Dame & Drexler had.

I’d take a Walton who was incredibly talented and had a huge, but short-term impact.

Of course, if we had Walton, half the board would bemoan his constant ailments and push that he should be traded so we could get someone we could rely on being able to play.

The higher we draft the more likely we are to find that player sooner.

The reason it takes us so long is we keep trying to remain as competitive as possible rather than embracing the rebuild.

It was hard to do when we had more money than everyone else and we were allowed to use it.

Now it's almost impossible for a team like Portland to do without getting incredibly lucky late in the draft.

Draft in the top 5 for 5 years and you'll probably find that guy.

Drafting in the top 15 will probably take you 15 years or longer.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

that 'white dude' was just traded for Malcolm Brogdon plus TWO first round picks. There is no way that Ant would get traded for a return like that

last season, among 'qualified' NBA players, Simons ranked:

PER: 87th out of 185
TS%: 126th out of 193
3ptFG%: 65th out of 160
winshare/48: 145th out of 185
BPM: 96th out of 185

he's a little above average as a player. Meaning his presence doesn't help the Blazers, and his absence wouldn't hurt

Im 99% certain if Joe could get a 6th man of the year player and two first round picks, Ant would already be gone.

Very clearly Ant is not our most valuable player or best asset. He is simply our best offensive threat is all.

 

[BIG Q]

I like Dame enough that I would have been more than happy to give that a real shot with some good players around him.

I wish he'd gotten the opportunity. If he'd had more help he may have been able to be a better defender without having to conserve so much for the offensive end.

I can really agree with the defense part here. I believe Dame probably had the ability to dig deep defensively if needed, but he was always 80% of the offense. I suspect he would have gotten super star treatment on the defensive end as well.

 

[BIG Q]

Im 99% certain if Joe could get a 6th man of the year player and two first round picks, Ant would already be gone.

Very clearly Ant is not our most valuable player or best asset. He is simply our best offensive threat is all.

Agree for the most part, but I sure want to see the Ayton that finished last season starting this season like that. Also, I have high hopes for Deni. Same with Sharpe. All three could be more valuable than Ant offensively, IF, they get the ball. But if it is just Ant/Grant ISO ball for no good reason, they will have sub par seasons. Which is good for capture the Flagg, so there is that.

 

[Blazinaway]

Im 99% certain if Joe could get a 6th man of the year player and two first round picks, Ant would already be gone.

Very clearly Ant is not our most valuable player or best asset. He is simply our best offensive threat is all.

Wait, a "6th man of the year player AND 2 firsts" for Ant? That's patently ridiculous, if Cronin (or anyone else) thinks that they are deranged

 

[wizenheimer]

Oden was in that 29 year interim. Talented as can be but broken physically.

Likewise Roy, a few very good years but limited longevity due to physical limitations.

it wasn’t that long between those two & Dame. Perhaps we are now overdue for our next or perhaps we already have next.

Don’t equate longevity with talent.

I get the point you are making but I think it is not talent, but impact that is the key.

Sharpe may be talented as can be but will he put everything together enough to have the kind of impact that Dame & Drexler had.

I’d take a Walton who was incredibly talented and had a huge, but short-term impact.

Of course, if we had Walton, half the board would bemoan his constant ailments and push that he should be traded so we could get someone we could rely on being able to play.

that was basically my point. That being that a player's reality is based upon their sustained prime, not their imagined potential. Too many negative factors can derail potential into streets going nowhere. That happened with Roy; we saw him elevate his game to an elite level but we didn't see that his knees were already failing. He was done before he even entered his prime. Oden is just an asterisk

there are 3 certain members of Portland's all-time starting 5: Walton-Drexler-Dame. The remaining two are debates: Gross or Kiki or Jerome; Buck or Rasheed or LMA. The Walton-Drexler-Dame trio represents the kind of singular talent a team absolutely needs to be a contender. Portland has been a team for 55 years, and they've had only 3 players at that level. And a lot of posters here just couldn't wait until the team traded the last one the Blazers had. Well, they may be waiting a damn long time before there's another

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Wait, a "6th man of the year player AND 2 firsts" for Ant? That's patently ridiculous, if Cronin (or anyone else) thinks that they are deranged

That is what we traded for Deni.

Someone on here said the new white guys isn't as valuable as Ant. Or something to that effect. Ill let you tell him he is deranged.

Also, In negotiations, rarely is what is asked for is what the minimum to be accepted is. You start high and then have a line you wont dive below, but you never let anyone know where that line is. You only let them know what the top line is and leave it up to them to lower it.

So I see no issues if Joe goes out and says I want a solid role player and two firsts. It doesn't mean he feels Ant has that value, but you never start the bidding war low. You always start high.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

that was basically my point. That being that a player's reality is based upon their sustained prime, not their imagined potential. Too many negative factors can derail potential into streets going nowhere. That happened with Roy; we saw him elevate his game to an elite level but we didn't see that his knees were already failing. He was done before he even entered his prime. Oden is just an asterisk

there are 3 certain members of Portland's all-time starting 5: Walton-Drexler-Dame. The remaining two are debates: Gross or Kiki or Jerome; Buck or Rasheed or LMA. The Walton-Drexler-Dame trio represents the kind of singular talent a team absolutely needs to be a contender. Portland has been a team for 55 years, and they've had only 3 players at that level. And a lot of posters here just couldn't wait until the team traded the last one the Blazers had. Well, they may be waiting a damn long time before there's another

I hope not.

 

[wizenheimer]

Wait, a "6th man of the year player AND 2 firsts" for Ant? That's patently ridiculous, if Cronin (or anyone else) thinks that they are deranged

it was kind of a welding-things-together post. Portland traded the 2023 6MOY, Brogdon + two first's for Avdija

rumors are that Cronin has been demanding two first's for Grant. If that's true, he probably demand two first's for Simons. Grant is much more likely to fetch better assets than Simons, IMO. But I don't think there's any chance Grant will ever fetch two certain 1st round picks

 

[Pinwheel1]

it was kind of a welding-things-together post. Portland traded the 2023 6MOY, Brogdon + two first's for Avdija

rumors are that Cronin has been demanding two first's for Grant. If that's true, he probably demand two first's for Simons. Grant is much more likely to fetch better assets than Simons, IMO. But I don't think there's any chance Grant will ever fetch two certain 1st round picks

Yeah, probably not. You would need a desperate trade partner for that to happen. This means a season-ending injury at the forward position for a contender. Those odds are not very good.

 

[Foxx]

that was basically my point. That being that a player's reality is based upon their sustained prime, not their imagined potential. Too many negative factors can derail potential into streets going nowhere. That happened with Roy; we saw him elevate his game to an elite level but we didn't see that his knees were already failing. He was done before he even entered his prime. Oden is just an asterisk

there are 3 certain members of Portland's all-time starting 5: Walton-Drexler-Dame. The remaining two are debates: Gross or Kiki or Jerome; Buck or Rasheed or LMA. The Walton-Drexler-Dame trio represents the kind of singular talent a team absolutely needs to be a contender. Portland has been a team for 55 years, and they've had only 3 players at that level. And a lot of posters here just couldn't wait until the team traded the last one the Blazers had. Well, they may be waiting a damn long time before there's another

it’s not a crisis either. Outside of a couple clutch shots, most of those dame led teams did very little post season-wise to bear decades of ptsd about trading him. Maybe having a balanced roster is more important? Idk just an idea

 

[SharpesTriumph]

that was basically my point. That being that a player's reality is based upon their sustained prime, not their imagined potential. Too many negative factors can derail potential into streets going nowhere. That happened with Roy; we saw him elevate his game to an elite level but we didn't see that his knees were already failing. He was done before he even entered his prime. Oden is just an asterisk

there are 3 certain members of Portland's all-time starting 5: Walton-Drexler-Dame. The remaining two are debates: Gross or Kiki or Jerome; Buck or Rasheed or LMA. The Walton-Drexler-Dame trio represents the kind of singular talent a team absolutely needs to be a contender. Portland has been a team for 55 years, and they've had only 3 players at that level. And a lot of posters here just couldn't wait until the team traded the last one the Blazers had. Well, they may be waiting a damn long time before there's another

Rasheed is actually the only clear starter. Porter was a better defender than Dame, and Roy was more clutch than Drexler. Walton wasn't healthy enough.

 

[BIG Q]

that was basically my point. That being that a player's reality is based upon their sustained prime, not their imagined potential. Too many negative factors can derail potential into streets going nowhere. That happened with Roy; we saw him elevate his game to an elite level but we didn't see that his knees were already failing. He was done before he even entered his prime. Oden is just an asterisk

there are 3 certain members of Portland's all-time starting 5: Walton-Drexler-Dame. The remaining two are debates: Gross or Kiki or Jerome; Buck or Rasheed or LMA. The Walton-Drexler-Dame trio represents the kind of singular talent a team absolutely needs to be a contender. Portland has been a team for 55 years, and they've had only 3 players at that level. And a lot of posters here just couldn't wait until the team traded the last one the Blazers had. Well, they may be waiting a damn long time before there's another

You forgot Lucas.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Dame/Roy/Drexler/Lucas/Walton

Conversation over.

 

[BIG Q]

That is what we traded for Deni.

Someone on here said the new white guys isn't as valuable as Ant. Or something to that effect. Ill let you tell him he is deranged.

Also, In negotiations, rarely is what is asked for is what the minimum to be accepted is. You start high and then have a line you wont dive below, but you never let anyone know where that line is. You only let them know what the top line is and leave it up to them to lower it.

So I see no issues if Joe goes out and says I want a solid role player and two firsts. It doesn't mean he feels Ant has that value, but you never start the bidding war low. You always start high.

I think part of the premium paid for Deni was the fact that Brogdon, a small, was traded for Deni, the big. Many here want to trade Ant for a big. They will be giving up more than just Ant unless they take future assets and salary ballast.

 

[wizenheimer]

Yeah, probably not. You would need a desperate trade partner for that to happen. This means a season-ending injury at the forward position for a contender. Those odds are not very good.

the problem is that the theory doesn't survive contact with reality

for example, Grant to the Lakers: because of their future pick situation, there's only one way the Lakers could send out two 1st's: their 2029 + 2031 first's, both unprotected. They might do that for a Giannis, or a Jokic, or a Tatum. But they would never do that for an Ingram or a Grant. That, combined with their 2nd apron issue has always made me believe the Grant-->LA possibility was remote.

And after the Lakers, I have a real hard time seeing any team trade two pretty certain first's for a player at Grant's level. I'm probably forgetting a trade or two, but about the only team willing to trade two first round picks for players at the Grant/RoCo/Avdija level is Portland. All that's not to say it can't happen, but I won't believe it's a practical idea until the impossible becomes possible

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I think part of the premium paid for Deni was the fact that Brogdon, a small, was traded for Deni, the big. Many here want to trade Ant for a big. They will be giving up more than just Ant unless they take future assets and salary ballast.

Absolutely. the flipside is many here thought Brogdon would fetch two firsts. Instead, we had to give up to firsts to offload him. If Brogdon was our best asset last year, and we had to include two firsts to get a big back, then Ant is no where near worth that.

 

[wizenheimer]

You forgot Lucas.

you're right, I did

 

[Sheldon Shape]

If Joe could have traded Ant for Deni he would have, but their value isn't even close.

Deni is a championship-type player. Ant is MAYBE a 6th man on a mediocre team. If Joe could have given one 1st and Ant for Deni he would have. Unfortunately, we see that Ant's value isn't as high as we'd like.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If Joe could have traded Ant for Deni he would have, but their value isn't even close.

Deni is a championship-type player. Ant is MAYBE a 6th man on a mediocre team. If Joe could have given one 1st and Ant for Deni he would have. Unfortunately, we see that Ant's value isn't as high as we'd like.

While I don't know if all of that is necessarily true, I can say that given the choice, I certainly would have preferred to have kept Brogdon over Ant.

 

[Pinwheel1]

If Joe could have traded Ant for Deni he would have, but their value isn't even close.

Deni is a championship-type player. Ant is MAYBE a 6th man on a mediocre team. If Joe could have given one 1st and Ant for Deni he would have. Unfortunately, we see that Ant's value isn't as high as we'd like.

Or..... Joe preferred to trade the guy who is 7 years older.