OT ACAB All Cops Are Bastards (yes EVERY one)

[Phatguysrule]

If you're advocating that we tell the people who live in Battleground, Oregon City, Canby etc to move INTO town, we disagree.

Also, I completely disbelieve that we can't create a team to keep us safe here.

All we know is crime and punishment. That system has failed miserably for people of color, black folks specifically.

I believe we need to reimagine safety WITHOUT police. Try it...

Can you show me one example of that working in a society of at least hundreds of thousands of people?

 

[dviss1]

Can you show me one example of that working in a society of at least hundreds of thousands of people?

Show me a working police system first. One that doesn't target black people. One that didn't start out as Slave Patrol.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Take some time and watch the video.

I watched it. I already knew all of that. You should definitely be able to sue police. They need to be held accountable.

There is nothing in that about what to replace the police force with. A movement with no plan is doomed to fail.

I would suggest collecting evidence of successes and proven techniques if you want to sell a city on the removal of police. Because I fully agree with everything you're telling me, except that replacing the police with nothing is a good idea.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Show me a working police system first. One that doesn't target black people. One that didn't start out as Slave Patrol.

Germany is far better than what we have here. I'd take that long before I'd support a system with no police. And that's considered extreme for the vast majority of America. Including Portland.

 

[dviss1]

I watched it. I already knew all of that. You should definitely be able to sue police. They need to be held accountable.

There is nothing in that about what to replace the police force with. A movement with no plan is doomed to fail.

I would suggest collecting evidence of successes and proven techniques if you want to sell a city on the removal of police. Because I fully agree with everything you're telling me, except that replacing the police with nothing is a good idea.

If you watched the video you know I said we need to figure that out. Again, we've NEVER had police accountability in this country.

That system is racist and broken and "reform" has NEVER been good in this country.

Anytime anything has been "reformed" it's been broken.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Who said lowering their pay? I said they don't need an increase.

You seem to be suggested eliminating their pay. Which will eliminate police.

This is a lot worse than lowering their pay.

 

[dviss1]

Germany is far better than what we have here. I'd take that long before I'd support a system with no police. And that's considered extreme for the vast majority of America. Including Portland.

In Great Britain Cops don't carry guns. We could learn a LOT from them:

 

[Phatguysrule]

If you watched the video you know I said we need to figure that out. Again, we've NEVER had police accountability in this country.

That system is racist and broken and "reform" has NEVER been good in this country.

Anytime anything has been "reformed" it's been broken.

And you'll need to figure out what you're asking for before you can successfully obtain it.

 

[Phatguysrule]

In Great Britain Cops don't carry guns. We could learn a LOT from them:

Sure. I'm good with police not carrying guns.

*Edit* But you're not going to find police with that right taken away and forced to live in Portland when they could just go across the river, carry guns and live wherever they want for similar pay.

 

[dviss1]

You seem to be suggested eliminating their pay. Which will eliminate police.

This is a lot worse than lowering their pay.

They don't need all the military toys they have. Nor do we need so many of them.

MFs like Sgt Brett Taylor need to be fired and charged though. He's a fucking menace. Eliminate his pay immediately.

Overtime pay is a big part of his 130k+ per year salary. Again, I would make them all reapply for their jobs.

 

[Chris Craig]

Ok, so if we disarm police officers completely, are we going to send them in to situations where people are shooting guns, or have guns. They will likely just get shot.

I agree there are many situations Cops should not be called for that they are, or that weapons are not necessary in.

But, what do we do for the situations like above?

 

[Phatguysrule]

They don't need all the military toys they have. Nor do we need so many of them.

MFs like Sgt Brett Taylor need to be fired and charged though. He's a fucking menace. Eliminate his pay immediately.

Overtime pay is a big part of his 130k+ per year salary. Again, I would make them all reapply for their jobs.

Completely agree.

 

[dviss1]

Ok, so if we disarm police officers completely, are we going to send them in to situations where people are shooting guns, or have guns. They will likely just get shot.

I agree there are many situations Cops should not be called for that they are, or that weapons are not necessary in.

But, what do we do for the situations like above?

Here's the thing... What are they gonna do when they get there? Police always show up after the fact.

WE prevent crime bro. Not police. It's always a citizen.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ok, so if we disarm police officers completely, are we going to send them in to situations where people are shooting guns, or have guns. They will likely just get shot.

I agree there are many situations Cops should not be called for that they are, or that weapons are not necessary in.

But, what do we do for the situations like above?

I think you have to have a regional "SWAT" style team which is on call. Also ideally backed by the national guard.

These should be elite police of the highest qualifications and psychological profile.

They are only to be called if there is an active shooter situation (meaning shots fired with intent to harm).

 

[Phatguysrule]

Here's the thing... What are they gonna do when they get there? Police always show up after the fact.

WE prevent crime bro. Not police. It's always a citizen.

There are very rare cases when this is needed. But those cases do occur and could be far worse if no firepower were available. Especially if people like the Proud Boys know there is no armed authority.

We'd then devolve into a situation in which the people who have the best guns win. We don't want to be in that situation.

 

[dviss1]

There are very rare cases when this is needed. But those cases do occur and could be far worse if no firepower were available. Especially if people like the Proud Boys know there is no armed authority.

We'd then devolve into a situation in which the people who have the best guns win. We don't want to be in that situation.

It's painting a new undiscovered color, I know...

 

[Natebishop3]

You know I have 2 cousins that did 8 combat tours between them right? Stop acting like you don't know WTF I'm talking about.
People who have seen combat. Here you go parsing shit like you always do.

Warriors are not what our police should be and you have a skewed view on this.

Bottom line, policing and being in the military are 2 different things. Stop acting like they make good cops because they don't.

You just got schooled and now YOU are doing what YOU always do, which is change the argument.

First you said that literally nobody from the military should be a cop.

Then you said that nobody who deployed should be a cop.

Now you're changing your narrative once again. Are you this arrogant in person? I never said that soldiers make good cops. In fact, I have made the very same argument that you're making on this forum, but what I did say was that requiring a 4 year degree would close off law enforcement for a lot of veterans who are just getting out of the military. That's just a fact. There's no personal opinion there. A lot of military go into law enforcement.

I didn't say they make good cops. I have argued to the contrary. But your bizarre stance on all military is wrong.

 

[THE HCP]

Bottom line, policing and being in the military are 2 different things. Stop acting like they make good cops because they don't.

D, I’ve posted on here that I was a Military Policeman.
Half of our training and duty was FIELD/COMBAT which is what you see in war movies, the other half was GARRISON which is what you might call “normal” civilian duty.
I can’t think of a better candidate to become a police officer. 2 different styles of police training. I didn’t go on to become a police officer once I got out, because I just wasn’t ready to go to college. I had to get a degree to become a civilian police officer and that just wasn’t going to happen. I know everybody is different, but I think I would have become a fantastic officer, and I know there are others out there that are as well.
I’m a bit torn, but I truly believe there are good ones on the streets, I am close with them. Good hardworking, open minded, educated brothers who are being thrown into this pile with the bad ones. This is one of those topics, that just can’t be black or white, one way or the other.

I love your passion for change, that’s what it’s going to take. Love ya man, keep it up!

 

[Chris Craig]

D, I’ve posted on here that I was a Military Policeman.
Half of our training and duty was FIELD/COMBAT which is what you see in war movies, the other half was GARRISON which is what you might call “normal” civilian duty.
I can’t think of a better candidate to become a police officer. 2 different styles of police training. I didn’t go on to become a police officer once I got out, because I just wasn’t ready to go to college. I had to get a degree to become a civilian police officer and that just wasn’t going to happen. I know everybody is different, but I think I would have become a fantastic officer, and I know there are others out there that are as well.
I’m a bit torn, but I truly believe there are good ones on the streets, I am close with them. Good hardworking, open minded, educated brothers who are being thrown into this pile with the bad ones. This is one of those topics, that just can’t be black or white, one way or the other.

I love your passion for change, that’s what it’s going to take. Love ya man, keep it up!

Soldiers are trained to see enemies. They are trained to kill. Most suffer PTSD. That does not make a good candidate for a cop. (Not speaking of you specifically just in general).

Should we have police who see American citizens as enemies? Police who are trained not to de-esculate but to take people out? Trained not as arbitrators, but as roided warriors?

It's not a good result. We don't need militaristic policing.

 

[dviss1]

D, I’ve posted on here that I was a Military Policeman.
Half of our training and duty was FIELD/COMBAT which is what you see in war movies, the other half was GARRISON which is what you might call “normal” civilian duty.
I can’t think of a better candidate to become a police officer. 2 different styles of police training. I didn’t go on to become a police officer once I got out, because I just wasn’t ready to go to college. I had to get a degree to become a civilian police officer and that just wasn’t going to happen. I know everybody is different, but I think I would have become a fantastic officer, and I know there are others out there that are as well.
I’m a bit torn, but I truly believe there are good ones on the streets, I am close with them. Good hardworking, open minded, educated brothers who are being thrown into this pile with the bad ones. This is one of those topics, that just can’t be black or white, one way or the other.

I love your passion for change, that’s what it’s going to take. Love ya man, keep it up!

I appreciate the sentiment. I will say though the degree thing? That's completely untrue.
In Oregon you can have a GED and you can become a police officer.
The average amount of weeks in the nation for police academy = 21. In Oregon, 16...

Just like I said in the video above, GED, 16 weeks, Badge, Gun...

 

[Chris Craig]

I appreciate the sentiment. I will say though the degree thing? That's completely untrue.
In Oregon you can have a GED and you can become a police officer.
The average amount of weeks in the nation for police academy = 21. In Oregon, 16...

Just like I said in the video above, GED, 16 weeks, Badge, Gun...

The Good Enough Degree

 

[Shaboid]

I don't think it is unreasonable for former military to serve, use their GI Bill to study criminal justice, become an officer. All that being said, it doesn't really matter how much education they receive if the whole system is corrupt.

 

[Natebishop3]

Soldiers are trained to see enemies. They are trained to kill. Most suffer PTSD. That does not make a good candidate for a cop. (Not speaking of you specifically just in general).

Should we have police who see American citizens as enemies? Police who are trained not to de-esculate but to take people out? Trained not as arbitrators, but as roided warriors?

It's not a good result. We don't need militaristic policing.

Sure. I agree.... however Dviss said ALL veterans.

 

[dviss1]

I don't think it is unreasonable for former military to serve, use their GI Bill to study criminal justice, become an officer. All that being said, it doesn't really matter how much education they receive if the whole system is corrupt.

Why? You don't need a criminal justice degree? You just need a GED...

Why does it take 6 years to practice law and 16 weeks to enforce it??

 

[Shaboid]

Why? You don't need a criminal justice degree? You just need a GED...

Why does it take 6 years to practice law and 16 weeks to enforce it??

Never mentioned the GED thing. We agree that the bar is too low currently.

I was just saying, if someone gets an education to be something, it shouldn't matter what their old occupation (military) was.

 

[dviss1]

Never mentioned the GED thing. We agree that the bar is too low currently.

I was just saying, if someone gets an education to be something, it shouldn't matter what their old occupation (military) was.

Yes it should. If you have been in combat that does not make you a good police officer. This is being shown as we speak.

Lots of police are ex military and officers who have been deployed are 2.9x more likely to shoot.

We need folks to deescalate things not the opposite.

 

[Chris Craig]

Never mentioned the GED thing. We agree that the bar is too low currently.

I was just saying, if someone gets an education to be something, it shouldn't matter what their old occupation (military) was.

They are Killers dude. Trained fucking Killers. It does matter.

 

[Natebishop3]

4 year degrees isn't the problem.

College's aren't going to teach them hand to hand combatives and how to defuse tense situations. The issue is the training they're receiving once they reach their departments. If you look at the level of training that the military receives and the level of training that law enforcement receives, it's not even close.

This isn't the video that I was thinking of, but he talks about the conditioning that the Navy SEALs do to prepare their guys for high stress situations.

 

[Shaboid]

They are Killers dude. Trained fucking Killers. It does matter.

Sounds like a blanket statement, which I disagree with. Not all service members are front line marines.

Yes it should. If you have been in combat that does not make you a good police officer. This is being shown as we speak.

Lots of police are ex military and officers who have been deployed are 2.9x more likely to shoot.

We need folks to deescalate things not the opposite.

Twisting my words. No where am I claiming that being in the military is proper training to become a police officer. I in fact agree with you that we need more de-escalation, and that is going to take reform.

All I was saying is that people (especially people coming back from a warzone) can and should be retrained. Just because someone served does not make them a cold blooded murderer.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Soldiers are trained to see enemies. They are trained to kill. Most suffer PTSD. That does not make a good candidate for a cop. (Not speaking of you specifically just in general).

Should we have police who see American citizens as enemies? Police who are trained not to de-esculate but to take people out? Trained not as arbitrators, but as roided warriors?

It's not a good result. We don't need militaristic policing.

I just don't think we should exclude huge segments of the population from a position of such dire need. We need the best and brightest who are willing to be police officers. As long as their psych eval checks out and they have the right mental make-up I would not exclude soldiers.

But any militaristic behavior from police should lead to automatic expulsion and banning from public service. Regardless of their background.