OT ACAB All Cops Are Bastards (yes EVERY one)

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Sounds like a blanket statement, which I disagree with. Not all service members are front line marines.

Twisting my words. No where am I claiming that being in the military is proper training to become a police officer. I in fact agree with you that we need more de-escalation, and that is going to take reform.

All I was saying is that people (especially people coming back from a warzone) can and should be retrained. Just because someone served does not make them a cold blooded murderer.

I'm not twisting your word at all. You said that previous occupation shouldn't matter.

I disagree that it should not be ex service members and I gave you the reason why I disagreed.
 
As long as their psych eval checks out and they have the right mental make-up

The current psych eval is a tool to weed out potential black officers.

I have a good friend, black lady, ATHLETIC AF, played ball in Spain. Referee. Her mother is a Judge. Rosie is one of the most level headed people I know.

She was asked in her interview if she would report another officer if she found they were doing something illegal. She passed every single test with flying colors and was told after her "psych eval" that she wouldn't be a good fit. She would be a great Police officer but I'm glad she didn't get caught up in the club. The current system would change her.
 
All I was saying is that people (especially people coming back from a warzone) can and should be retrained. Just because someone served does not make them a cold blooded murderer.

It's lost on folks and I've said it before. If you've been in a warzone there's a good chance you have PTSD.

I'd also wager MOST of our current officers are suffering from it as well. IMHO this is not a recipe for a good police officer.
 
The current psych eval is a tool to weed out potential black officers.

I have a good friend, black lady, ATHLETIC AF, played ball in Spain. Referee. Her mother is a Judge. Rosie is one of the most level headed people I know.

She was asked in her interview if she would report another officer if she found they were doing something illegal. She passed every single test with flying colors and was told after her "psych eval" that she wouldn't be a good fit. She would be a great Police officer but I'm glad she didn't get caught up in the club. The current system would change her.
That's fucked up and not at all surprising.

I'm obviously not talking about the current psych eval...
 
4 year degrees isn't the problem.

College's aren't going to teach them hand to hand combatives and how to defuse tense situations. The issue is the training they're receiving once they reach their departments. If you look at the level of training that the military receives and the level of training that law enforcement receives, it's not even close.

This isn't the video that I was thinking of, but he talks about the conditioning that the Navy SEALs do to prepare their guys for high stress situations.


Only that's NOT the training their getting. Read up. THIS GUY The "Killology" guy is the one who trained Derek Chauvin. We see how that turned out.
He also trained the officer who killed Philando Castille (ever even heard of him???) And I'm sorry, you can't train people how not to be racist...

One of America's most popular police trainers is teaching officers how to kill.

5ed638305af6cc6e222b2a83

Dave Grossman.
"Do Not Resist"
One of America's top police trainers is teaching officers to be "emotionally, spiritually, psychologically" prepared to kill people on the job.

If you're prepared to kill, Dave Grossman says, it's "just not that big of a deal."

"I am convinced from a lifetime of study, if you fully prepare yourself, in most cases killing is just not that big of a deal. For a mature warrior who has prepared their self's mind, body and spirit for a lifetime, for a mature warrior whose killing represents a clear and present danger to others, it's just not that big of a deal," Grossman said in 2015, while speaking in front of a group in a segment filmed for the 2016 police militarization documentary "Do Not Resist."

Grossman also enticed his audience by noting that killing can lead to great sex.

"Both partners are very invested in some very intense sex. There's not a whole lot of perks that come with this job. You find one, relax and enjoy it," he said in the same course.

The retired Army ranger and former West Point instructor, teaches a course called "The Bulletproof Mind," where he teaches officers the logic behind killing. He offers online classes through Grossman Academy for $79.

His overly aggressive style prepares law enforcement officers for a job under siege, where they're front line troops who are "at war" with the streets. Officers need to be prepared to battle the communities they're told to protect, Grossman has said. And ideally in Grossman's eyes, officers need to learn to kill less hesitantly.

Grossman, who did not respond to multiple requests for comment from Insider, is part of a larger industry of controversial militarized and fear-based police training educators, that also includes psychologist William Lewinski at the Force Science Institute in Minnesota, whose work has been called "pseudoscience" by the American Journal of Psychology.

Law enforcement agencies including the Los Angeles Police Department, California Highway Patrol, and hundreds of other jurisdictions have taken Grossman's courses over the last 22 years, Grossman told Men's Journal in 2017. At least one police shooting death has been connected to the course — the 2016 killing of Philando Castile. The officer who killed Castile had taken a Bulletproof class with Grossman just two years before the shooting.

Grossman's courses focus on the study of killing, or 'killology'
Since retiring from the US Army in 1998, Grossman has traveled to all 50 states to teach his Bulletproof courses to law enforcement agencies, according to his website. Grossman's bio on the website says he's on the road "almost 300 days a year" teaching seminars.

As part of the course, Grossman is paid by local law enforcement departments to train officers in his warrior-based philosophy of "killology," which he describes as "the reactions of healthy people in killing circumstances (such as police and military in combat) and the factors that enable and restrain killing in these situations."

5ed6a90f4dca6821a67a2a34

Screenshot via WCCO
For years his classes were held through the Illinois-based organization Calibre Press that, according to its website, works to train "smarter, safer, more successful law enforcement officers."

Calibre Press told Insider that it no longer offers Grossman's Bulletproof courses. Yet, there is still a class called "Bulletproof: Training by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (KRG, LLC) and Calibre Press, LLC" available on its website. The courses range in price from $239 to $279 per person, with upcoming seminars being hosted by police departments in Kansas City, Missouri; Chandler, Arizona; Richland, Washington; and Schaumburg, Illinois, as well as by a community college's police academy in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and by the security at the Mall of America in Bloomington, Minnesota.

said at one seminar filmed by The New Yorker. "Are you emotionally, spiritually, psychologically prepared to snuff out a human life in defense of innocent lives?"

Craig Atkinson, the filmmaker behind "Do Not Resist," told Insider that he attended one of Grossman's Bulletproof courses upon an invitation from the Ohio State Patrol's SWAT team in 2015.

He said Grossman's military background seemingly makes it difficult to distinguish at-war soldiers from police trying to protect a community.

"He doesn't see the separation between Fallujah and Ferguson," Atkinson told Insider. "And so he thinks of the police as the first line of defense to Al Qaeda, and there's no difference."

He said he and a producer who attended the session were "appalled" by what Grossman was teaching law enforcement.

"Obviously not all cops are bad, but you take good cops and you give them warrior training and you quickly have an outcome that we see moving across this country right now," Atkinson said, referencing the militarization of police in the US.

Grossman's course faced criticism from a watchdog agency after Philando Castile's death

Grossman's course came under scrutiny in 2016, when it was revealed that St. Anthony Officer Jeronimo Yanez, who shot Castile during a traffic stop outside Minneapolis, had taken a Bulletproof Warrior years earlier. In 2017, Yanez was found not guilty on all charges in connection to shooting and killing Castile.

The Minneapolis-based watchdog organization Communities United Against Police Brutality said in a 2018 information pamphlet shared with Insider that the claims Grossman makes in his courses are "Like a foundation full of cracks." The organization said much of Grossman's work is unverified and lacks peer reviews.

5ed6aa2baee6a81b5b62d6fb

St. Anthony Police Department officer Jeronimo Yanez poses for investigation photographs after he fatally shot Philando Castile during a traffic stop in July 2016, in a combination of photos released on June 20, 2017 after a jury declared Yanez not guilty of second-degree manslaughter.
Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension/Handout via REUTERS
"It's one thing to claim to discover a phenomenon that's under-researched and then try to learn more for the general advancement of knowledge. It's another thing to operationalize ideas drawn from controversial, fatally-flawed, non-peer-reviewed research. And that's what Grossman is doing: Preparing police officers to interact with the public they serve by telling them they are "warriors," by insisting that "WE. ARE. AT. WAR.!," and by encouraging them to question any previous training they've undergone," the organization said in 2018.

The organization added: "Grossman routinely puts cops on high alert in his seminars by insisting on a mythical exploding murder rate or decrying 'the systematic ambush, murder, and execution of cops.' Officers routinely hear that 'every single traffic stop could be, might be, the last stop you ever make in your life.' Awakening officers' fear that their work continually puts them in lethal danger, Grossman begins cultivating fear of the public and a readiness to kill."

Many police departments have stopped endorsing Grossman's courses in the years since Castile's death, including the Santa Clara Police Department and the Minnesota State Patrol.

Some departments are even turning toward less aggressive tactics, and are using what the National Institute of Justice has deemed "Guardian" mentality

come together to shut down a Pentagon program that provides military gear to local law enforcement agencies. The program, and the move to militarize the police, had been championed by Trump.

One use-of-force expert says warrior training courses like Grossman's are 'counterproductive'
Seth Stoughton, a former police officer who is now a use-of-force expert and associate professor at the University of South Carolina Law School, told Insider that the issue with Grossman's warrior mentality is that it's not being used properly.

"In its most restrictive sense, the idea of a warrior mentality or the warrior mindset is to remind officers in life-threatening situations to have the mental tenacity and grit they need to survive," he said. "It's become a much broader metaphor for all aspects of policing, and it's contributed to a very adversarial approach to policing, where officers are told that they are superheroes doing battle with the forces of evil, that they're soldiers on the front line in a war against anarchy."

5ed66a67191824736c0be357

A woman holds a sign during a protest amid nationwide unrest following the death in Minneapolis police custody of George Floyd, near the White House in Washington, U.S., May 31, 2020.
Jim Bourg/Reuters
Stoughton, who co-wrote the book "Evaluating Police Uses of Force," and has articles criticizing warrior training in The Atlantic and the Harvard Law Review, said the practice is "counterproductive."

"If officers look at the people that they interact with as enemy combatants, as potential threats instead of community members whom officers are supposed to be serving and protecting, it's really not a surprise when they disregard the value of someone's life," Stoughton.

The US has a use-of-force problem that goes beyond Grossman's course
Grossman's seminars, of course, aren't the only thing leading cops to kill, and police brutality has been an issue long before militarization techniques became popular. And use-of-force is still an issue among police departments that have banned courses like Grossman's.

Inconsistent policies and trainings among law enforcement agencies, lack of accountability, and centuries of racial inequality and injustice in the US all contribute to a proportionally larger number of people in the black community to die at the hands of cops.

Use of force is a key component in the death of 46-year-old George Floyd, who died after a police officer knelt on his neck for eight minutes, during which he repeatedly told the officer "I can't breathe."

Four police officers were fired after Floyd's death, including Derek Chauvin, who was filmed kneeling on his neck and was later charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter. Chauvin and another fired officer, Tou Thao, both have a history of use of force.

5ed550d6f34d0530db060427

George Floyd
Courtesy of Philonise Floyd
In Minneapolis, under the police department's use-of-force policy, officers are still allowed to de-escalate a situation by putting a knee on a suspect's neck, but only those who have been trained on how to do so without putting direct pressure on the person's airway are allowed to use the move.

After a family received a $3 million payout from Minneapolis in 2013 following the death of a David Smith — a young black man who the police shot with a stun gun and held on the ground with a knee on his back for four minutes — all Minneapolis police officers were supposed to be retrained on how to restrain suspects, according to a 2013 Minneapolis Star Tribune article. Both Chauvin and Thao were on the force when retraining classes were said to be carried out, and use-of-force experts have criticized his actions leading up to Floyd's death.

Minneapolis banned warrior-style training in 2019
Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey banned warrior-style training in Minneapolis in April 2019, calling it "fear-based."

"Fear-based trainings violate the values at the very heart of community policing," Frey said when he banned Bulletproof training from Minneapolis. "When you're conditioned to believe that every person encountered poses a threat to your existence, you simply cannot be expected to build out meaningful relationships with those same people."

5ed6aaa42618b925aa44d0b5

A chain portrait of George Floyd is part of the memorial for him, Wednesday, May 27, 2020, near the site of the arrest of Floyd who died in police custody Monday night in Minneapolis after video shared online by a bystander showed a white officer kneeling on his neck during his arrest as he pleaded that he couldn't breathe.
Jim Mone/AP
But Grossman's course is still continuing elsewhere.

Atkinson told Insider that if police departments decide to continue to promote warrior training, they need to balance their training with de-escalation techniques that teach officers how to respond to heightened situations with proper communication. He also urged law enforcement agencies to destigmatize mental illness, and include trainings on trauma and mental health.

"You can't just send people out there with one side of the equation and expect that it's not going to get universally applied," he said.

Atkinson, the filmmaker, called warrior training the "number-one issue" that's getting people unnecessarily killed by police.

"If we really want to get down to the root of why all these killings are happening, this warrior training 100% has to be put under a microscope and analyzed. People need to ask the question: Is this still the appropriate training for what we're asking our cops to be on a day-to-day basis?" Atkinson said, later adding: "If cops got less of this training, less people would die. There's no question about that."
 
You just got schooled and now YOU are doing what YOU always do, which is change the argument.

First you said that literally nobody from the military should be a cop.

Then you said that nobody who deployed should be a cop.

Now you're changing your narrative once again. Are you this arrogant in person? I never said that soldiers make good cops. In fact, I have made the very same argument that you're making on this forum, but what I did say was that requiring a 4 year degree would close off law enforcement for a lot of veterans who are just getting out of the military. That's just a fact. There's no personal opinion there. A lot of military go into law enforcement.

I didn't say they make good cops. I have argued to the contrary. But your bizarre stance on all military is wrong.

You're always on some dumb shit. Aint nobody schooling me. I just gave evidence NONE of which you even read. I just schooled your ass on your sorry
"training" post. FOH
 
You're always on some dumb shit. Aint nobody schooling me. I just gave evidence NONE of which you even read. I just schooled your ass on your sorry
"training" post. FOH

You played yourself. I literally said that they're not getting the right kind of training and then you rambled on for a thousand words about something that doesn't relate to what I said.

Do you even read what you're responding to?
 
You played yourself. I literally said that they're not getting the right kind of training and then you rambled on for a thousand words about something that doesn't relate to what I said.

Do you even read what you're responding to?

I know exactly who I was responding to. I was responding to your idiocy talking about that are police officers shouldn't have 4-year degrees. You're wrong. And just like I said, no they're not getting Navy SEAL training, nor should they get Navy SEAL training. They were supposed to protect us in service not shoot us and kill us. You sound like a fool right now.

When you make someone earn some shit then you pay them oh, they won't do some shit to lose that shit...
 
I know exactly who I was responding to. I was responding to your idiocy talking about that are police officers shouldn't have 4-year degrees. You're wrong. And just like I said, no they're not getting Navy SEAL training, nor should they get Navy SEAL training. They were supposed to protect us in service not shoot us and kill us. You sound like a fool right now.

When you make someone earn some shit then you pay them oh, they won't do some shit to lose that shit...

Well you didn't watch the video. It's the kind of training that I'm talking about. Preparing these guys for highly stressful situations so they don't panic or freak out. You talk about needing four year degrees. Do you have a four year degree? College educations are not real world experience. They barely prepare you for anything. It's a piece of paper. For some jobs it matters, for some it doesn't. There are plenty of politicians with law degrees. Do you think it makes them good leaders? George W Bush went to Yale. Do you think he was a good President? You're so mad at anyone who doesn't immediately and 100% agree with you, and sorry, I just won't. You can call me every name you want. You can be a jerk. You can rage. But at the end of the day you're just wrong. Period. Full stop.

You're not that smart. Sorry. Just because you can do a google search and parrot back a bunch of bullshit doesn't make you smart. Why don't you think for yourself instead of being someone else's rage puppet?
 
Look all I'm seeing here is a damn education being served by @dviss1 . I may not agree that ALL cops are bad, but God damn there needs to be serious fundamental and ideological changes with the system to stop the blatant racism that still haunts our country.

And no money for body cams? The fuck is going on? Hold them all accountable for fucks sake.

They told us police are to make people safe, but that for sure isn't happening any more and politicians need to start championing for us, not for corporations or special interests.

This goes much further down than just police.

This country is so fucked and the people who we voted to make changes are doing Jack shit because they are bought by special self-serving interests.

I thank each and every one of you who served our country, and am forever grateful for you. But this country as it is right now fucking sucks and there is very little hope it's gonna get better unless a radical change happens. And it needs to happen now.

I will never blindly be patriotic when there is all this fucking bullshit that infests this country.
 
Only that's NOT the training their getting. Read up. THIS GUY The "Killology" guy is the one who trained Derek Chauvin. We see how that turned out.
He also trained the officer who killed Philando Castille (ever even heard of him???) And I'm sorry, you can't train people how not to be racist...

One of America's most popular police trainers is teaching officers how to kill.

5ed638305af6cc6e222b2a83

Dave Grossman.
"Do Not Resist"
One of America's top police trainers is teaching officers to be "emotionally, spiritually, psychologically" prepared to kill people on the job.

If you're prepared to kill, Dave Grossman says, it's "just not that big of a deal."

"I am convinced from a lifetime of study, if you fully prepare yourself, in most cases killing is just not that big of a deal. For a mature warrior who has prepared their self's mind, body and spirit for a lifetime, for a mature warrior whose killing represents a clear and present danger to others, it's just not that big of a deal," Grossman said in 2015, while speaking in front of a group in a segment filmed for the 2016 police militarization documentary "Do Not Resist."

Grossman also enticed his audience by noting that killing can lead to great sex.

"Both partners are very invested in some very intense sex. There's not a whole lot of perks that come with this job. You find one, relax and enjoy it," he said in the same course.

The retired Army ranger and former West Point instructor, teaches a course called "The Bulletproof Mind," where he teaches officers the logic behind killing. He offers online classes through Grossman Academy for $79.

His overly aggressive style prepares law enforcement officers for a job under siege, where they're front line troops who are "at war" with the streets. Officers need to be prepared to battle the communities they're told to protect, Grossman has said. And ideally in Grossman's eyes, officers need to learn to kill less hesitantly.

Grossman, who did not respond to multiple requests for comment from Insider, is part of a larger industry of controversial militarized and fear-based police training educators, that also includes psychologist William Lewinski at the Force Science Institute in Minnesota, whose work has been called "pseudoscience" by the American Journal of Psychology.

Law enforcement agencies including the Los Angeles Police Department, California Highway Patrol, and hundreds of other jurisdictions have taken Grossman's courses over the last 22 years, Grossman told Men's Journal in 2017. At least one police shooting death has been connected to the course — the 2016 killing of Philando Castile. The officer who killed Castile had taken a Bulletproof class with Grossman just two years before the shooting.

Grossman's courses focus on the study of killing, or 'killology'
Since retiring from the US Army in 1998, Grossman has traveled to all 50 states to teach his Bulletproof courses to law enforcement agencies, according to his website. Grossman's bio on the website says he's on the road "almost 300 days a year" teaching seminars.

As part of the course, Grossman is paid by local law enforcement departments to train officers in his warrior-based philosophy of "killology," which he describes as "the reactions of healthy people in killing circumstances (such as police and military in combat) and the factors that enable and restrain killing in these situations."

5ed6a90f4dca6821a67a2a34

Screenshot via WCCO
For years his classes were held through the Illinois-based organization Calibre Press that, according to its website, works to train "smarter, safer, more successful law enforcement officers."

Calibre Press told Insider that it no longer offers Grossman's Bulletproof courses. Yet, there is still a class called "Bulletproof: Training by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (KRG, LLC) and Calibre Press, LLC" available on its website. The courses range in price from $239 to $279 per person, with upcoming seminars being hosted by police departments in Kansas City, Missouri; Chandler, Arizona; Richland, Washington; and Schaumburg, Illinois, as well as by a community college's police academy in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and by the security at the Mall of America in Bloomington, Minnesota.

said at one seminar filmed by The New Yorker. "Are you emotionally, spiritually, psychologically prepared to snuff out a human life in defense of innocent lives?"

Craig Atkinson, the filmmaker behind "Do Not Resist," told Insider that he attended one of Grossman's Bulletproof courses upon an invitation from the Ohio State Patrol's SWAT team in 2015.

He said Grossman's military background seemingly makes it difficult to distinguish at-war soldiers from police trying to protect a community.

"He doesn't see the separation between Fallujah and Ferguson," Atkinson told Insider. "And so he thinks of the police as the first line of defense to Al Qaeda, and there's no difference."

He said he and a producer who attended the session were "appalled" by what Grossman was teaching law enforcement.

"Obviously not all cops are bad, but you take good cops and you give them warrior training and you quickly have an outcome that we see moving across this country right now," Atkinson said, referencing the militarization of police in the US.

Grossman's course faced criticism from a watchdog agency after Philando Castile's death

Grossman's course came under scrutiny in 2016, when it was revealed that St. Anthony Officer Jeronimo Yanez, who shot Castile during a traffic stop outside Minneapolis, had taken a Bulletproof Warrior years earlier. In 2017, Yanez was found not guilty on all charges in connection to shooting and killing Castile.

The Minneapolis-based watchdog organization Communities United Against Police Brutality said in a 2018 information pamphlet shared with Insider that the claims Grossman makes in his courses are "Like a foundation full of cracks." The organization said much of Grossman's work is unverified and lacks peer reviews.

5ed6aa2baee6a81b5b62d6fb

St. Anthony Police Department officer Jeronimo Yanez poses for investigation photographs after he fatally shot Philando Castile during a traffic stop in July 2016, in a combination of photos released on June 20, 2017 after a jury declared Yanez not guilty of second-degree manslaughter.
Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension/Handout via REUTERS
"It's one thing to claim to discover a phenomenon that's under-researched and then try to learn more for the general advancement of knowledge. It's another thing to operationalize ideas drawn from controversial, fatally-flawed, non-peer-reviewed research. And that's what Grossman is doing: Preparing police officers to interact with the public they serve by telling them they are "warriors," by insisting that "WE. ARE. AT. WAR.!," and by encouraging them to question any previous training they've undergone," the organization said in 2018.

The organization added: "Grossman routinely puts cops on high alert in his seminars by insisting on a mythical exploding murder rate or decrying 'the systematic ambush, murder, and execution of cops.' Officers routinely hear that 'every single traffic stop could be, might be, the last stop you ever make in your life.' Awakening officers' fear that their work continually puts them in lethal danger, Grossman begins cultivating fear of the public and a readiness to kill."

Many police departments have stopped endorsing Grossman's courses in the years since Castile's death, including the Santa Clara Police Department and the Minnesota State Patrol.

Some departments are even turning toward less aggressive tactics, and are using what the National Institute of Justice has deemed "Guardian" mentality

come together to shut down a Pentagon program that provides military gear to local law enforcement agencies. The program, and the move to militarize the police, had been championed by Trump.

One use-of-force expert says warrior training courses like Grossman's are 'counterproductive'
Seth Stoughton, a former police officer who is now a use-of-force expert and associate professor at the University of South Carolina Law School, told Insider that the issue with Grossman's warrior mentality is that it's not being used properly.

"In its most restrictive sense, the idea of a warrior mentality or the warrior mindset is to remind officers in life-threatening situations to have the mental tenacity and grit they need to survive," he said. "It's become a much broader metaphor for all aspects of policing, and it's contributed to a very adversarial approach to policing, where officers are told that they are superheroes doing battle with the forces of evil, that they're soldiers on the front line in a war against anarchy."

5ed66a67191824736c0be357

A woman holds a sign during a protest amid nationwide unrest following the death in Minneapolis police custody of George Floyd, near the White House in Washington, U.S., May 31, 2020.
Jim Bourg/Reuters
Stoughton, who co-wrote the book "Evaluating Police Uses of Force," and has articles criticizing warrior training in The Atlantic and the Harvard Law Review, said the practice is "counterproductive."

"If officers look at the people that they interact with as enemy combatants, as potential threats instead of community members whom officers are supposed to be serving and protecting, it's really not a surprise when they disregard the value of someone's life," Stoughton.

The US has a use-of-force problem that goes beyond Grossman's course
Grossman's seminars, of course, aren't the only thing leading cops to kill, and police brutality has been an issue long before militarization techniques became popular. And use-of-force is still an issue among police departments that have banned courses like Grossman's.

Inconsistent policies and trainings among law enforcement agencies, lack of accountability, and centuries of racial inequality and injustice in the US all contribute to a proportionally larger number of people in the black community to die at the hands of cops.

Use of force is a key component in the death of 46-year-old George Floyd, who died after a police officer knelt on his neck for eight minutes, during which he repeatedly told the officer "I can't breathe."

Four police officers were fired after Floyd's death, including Derek Chauvin, who was filmed kneeling on his neck and was later charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter. Chauvin and another fired officer, Tou Thao, both have a history of use of force.

5ed550d6f34d0530db060427

George Floyd
Courtesy of Philonise Floyd
In Minneapolis, under the police department's use-of-force policy, officers are still allowed to de-escalate a situation by putting a knee on a suspect's neck, but only those who have been trained on how to do so without putting direct pressure on the person's airway are allowed to use the move.

After a family received a $3 million payout from Minneapolis in 2013 following the death of a David Smith — a young black man who the police shot with a stun gun and held on the ground with a knee on his back for four minutes — all Minneapolis police officers were supposed to be retrained on how to restrain suspects, according to a 2013 Minneapolis Star Tribune article. Both Chauvin and Thao were on the force when retraining classes were said to be carried out, and use-of-force experts have criticized his actions leading up to Floyd's death.

Minneapolis banned warrior-style training in 2019
Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey banned warrior-style training in Minneapolis in April 2019, calling it "fear-based."

"Fear-based trainings violate the values at the very heart of community policing," Frey said when he banned Bulletproof training from Minneapolis. "When you're conditioned to believe that every person encountered poses a threat to your existence, you simply cannot be expected to build out meaningful relationships with those same people."

5ed6aaa42618b925aa44d0b5

A chain portrait of George Floyd is part of the memorial for him, Wednesday, May 27, 2020, near the site of the arrest of Floyd who died in police custody Monday night in Minneapolis after video shared online by a bystander showed a white officer kneeling on his neck during his arrest as he pleaded that he couldn't breathe.
Jim Mone/AP
But Grossman's course is still continuing elsewhere.

Atkinson told Insider that if police departments decide to continue to promote warrior training, they need to balance their training with de-escalation techniques that teach officers how to respond to heightened situations with proper communication. He also urged law enforcement agencies to destigmatize mental illness, and include trainings on trauma and mental health.

"You can't just send people out there with one side of the equation and expect that it's not going to get universally applied," he said.

Atkinson, the filmmaker, called warrior training the "number-one issue" that's getting people unnecessarily killed by police.

"If we really want to get down to the root of why all these killings are happening, this warrior training 100% has to be put under a microscope and analyzed. People need to ask the question: Is this still the appropriate training for what we're asking our cops to be on a day-to-day basis?" Atkinson said, later adding: "If cops got less of this training, less people would die. There's no question about that."

There are obviously individual circumstances but originally post shooting trauma was also real for officers. I would think it natural that they develop a training to help officers deal with shooting someone.

cops have been shot at in the past and so cops will need to have a layer of protection on the streets, both physically and emotionally, to feel safe.
 
The thing i disagree with is radical change is meeded.
Radical change is war. But the same people saying this are saying its the other side that wants war.
The only peaceful solution is to continue chipping away at the worst of it from within. But to tear it all down and try to rebuild it… well your talking full on war.
Is that what people want? Full on war?


Nothing this complicated changes over night or the side forced to Change will eventually come back to change things back.
So all we have is a never ending pendulum of violence.

if we want long, sustainable peace, then we all must work together to change things from within.
This starts on the local level in schools and city council meetings and go from there up the ladder.
 
Yes it should. If you have been in combat that does not make you a good police officer. This is being shown as we speak.

Lots of police are ex military and officers who have been deployed are 2.9x more likely to shoot.

We need folks to deescalate things not the opposite.
I've seen no data which would suggest being a combat vet excludes you from being a good cop.

I would agree there should be additional scrutiny for ex military... But a legit psych eval and plenty of training should be more than enough.
 
The thing i disagree with is radical change is meeded.
Radical change is war. But the same people saying this are saying its the other side that wants war.
The only peaceful solution is to continue chipping away at the worst of it from within. But to tear it all down and try to rebuild it… well your talking full on war.
Is that what people want? Full on war?


Nothing this complicated changes over night or the side forced to Change will eventually come back to change things back.
So all we have is a never ending pendulum of violence.

if we want long, sustainable peace, then we all must work together to change things from within.
This starts on the local level in schools and city council meetings and go from there up the ladder.
It's not war if the citizens decide the people they are paying aren't doing their job. As they are obviously not.

That's not war, it's just good policy.
 
It's not war if the citizens decide the people they are paying aren't doing their job. As they are obviously not.

That's not war, it's just good policy.

it will take full on war to unseat everything and everyone all at once in my opinion.
 
it will take full on war to unseat everything and everyone all at once in my opinion.
You think police are going to come to work after they've been fired for corrupt or militarized behavior? Are they going to fight against the police who aren't corrupt?

Like... How do you see this war happening? why wasn't there war in Minneapolis when their police were all fired?

Seriously curious about the details of this war.
 
You think police are going to come to work after they've been fired for corrupt or militarized behavior? Are they going to fight against the police who aren't corrupt?

Like... How do you see this war happening? why wasn't there war in Minneapolis when their police were all fired?

Seriously curious about the details of this war.

the forced expediency required to appease some will cause a staunch reaction from the opposition.

If its true that racism is imbedded so deeply into our government and large corporations, do you not think they will push back if stripped of everything so quickly?
 
the forced expediency required to appease some will cause a staunch reaction from the opposition.

If its true that racism is imbedded so deeply into our government and large corporations, do you not think they will push back if stripped of everything so quickly?
I don't think they will have a choice if the population wants it.

By refusing to do their job they are trying to force the population into supporting them. Might work, but it's also their last gasp. There is nothing else they can do.

Again, who are they going to attack in this war? Minorities? The poor? They've been attacking them for decades.

I'm honestly asking what this war that you're warning of could look like? Who is their enemy?

It's not just racism. It's classism. They target the weak who cannot defend themselves.

The people who can't take time off of work to go to court, even if they could afford a decent lawyer.

Racism is just a (terrible) piece of the overall classist war police have been pushing for years.
 
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I don't think they will have a choice if the population wants it.

By refusing to do their job they are trying to force the population into supporting them. Might work, but it's also their last gasp. There is nothing else they can do.

Again, who are they going to attack in this war? Minorities? The poor? They've been attacking them for decades.

I'm honestly asking what this war that you're warning of could look like? Who is their enemy?

It's not just racism. It's classism. They target the weak who cannot defend themselves.

The people who can't take time off of work to go to court, even if they could afford a decent lawyer.

Racism is just a (terrible) piece of the overall classist war police have been pushing for years.

Exactly,

The haves vs the have nots, which is usually what most wars entail.

Typically the ones that have have control over the militia and most militia leads tend to be conservative and so they side with the like. but its not easy to define what you are asking because I don't think it will be black and white. segments will branch off and march towards thier extreme ideals

If I had all the answers and details Id be able to stop it. :)

But yeah mainly a war of classes, which will tear families and communities apart.
 
Look all I'm seeing here is a damn education being served by @dviss1 . I may not agree that ALL cops are bad, but God damn there needs to be serious fundamental and ideological changes with the system to stop the blatant racism that still haunts our country.

And no money for body cams? The fuck is going on? Hold them all accountable for fucks sake.

They told us police are to make people safe, but that for sure isn't happening any more and politicians need to start championing for us, not for corporations or special interests.

This goes much further down than just police.

This country is so fucked and the people who we voted to make changes are doing Jack shit because they are bought by special self-serving interests.

I thank each and every one of you who served our country, and am forever grateful for you. But this country as it is right now fucking sucks and there is very little hope it's gonna get better unless a radical change happens. And it needs to happen now.

I will never blindly be patriotic when there is all this fucking bullshit that infests this country.
I don’t know if you feel better after that rant but I sure do! Good job!!
 
Exactly,

The haves vs the have nots, which is usually what most wars entail.

Typically the ones that have have control over the militia and most militia leads tend to be conservative and so they side with the like. but its not easy to define what you are asking because I don't think it will be black and white. segments will branch off and march towards thier extreme ideals

If I had all the answers and details Id be able to stop it. :)

But yeah mainly a war of classes, which will tear families and communities apart.
That's already been happening. For decades.
 
The thing i disagree with is radical change is meeded.
Radical change is war. But the same people saying this are saying its the other side that wants war.
The only peaceful solution is to continue chipping away at the worst of it from within. But to tear it all down and try to rebuild it… well your talking full on war.
Is that what people want? Full on war?


Nothing this complicated changes over night or the side forced to Change will eventually come back to change things back.
So all we have is a never ending pendulum of violence.

if we want long, sustainable peace, then we all must work together to change things from within.
This starts on the local level in schools and city council meetings and go from there up the ladder.

It has to be radical change because no one who has the power to do it wants to do it, so we have to be RADICAL about it.

It's not so black and white with wording. Not so literal.
 
It has to be radical change because no one who has the power to do it wants to do it, so we have to be RADICAL about it.

It's not so black and white with wording. Not so literal.

Nothing wrong with radical change in a positive direction, but it still has to happen gradually in my opinion. When I say radical, maybe that isn't the best word, maybe the best word is instant. It seems without 100% instant change, no one is appeased.

Nothing like this will happen instantly. It takes generations to wipe out generations of racism. We have been taking steps in the right direction.

You are exactly right about it not being black and white and that's kinda my point. There is no easy quick fix other than to tear it all down instantly(which isn't a quick fix), which, in my opinion, would bring full on war.

The only peaceful solution is patience and persistence.
 
Nothing wrong with radical change in a positive direction, but it still has to happen gradually in my opinion. When I say radical, maybe that isn't the best word, maybe the best word is instant. It seems without 100% instant change, no one is appeased.

Nothing like this will happen instantly. It takes generations to wipe out generations of racism. We have been taking steps in the right direction.

You are exactly right about it not being black and white and that's kinda my point. There is no easy quick fix other than to tear it all down instantly(which isn't a quick fix), which, in my opinion, would bring full on war.

The only peaceful solution is patience and persistence.
But cities have gotten rid of their police force in the past and no war broke out...

I disagree about patience. You have to keep pushing. We should not be happy until the change is complete. As soon as we are satisfied the change will stop or even be rolled back.
 

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