Anfernee Simons trade destinations

[beast blazer]

c'mon man...I didn't just compare defensive numbers. I simply used a couple of gauges that use both types of metrics. Players spend as much time on defense as they do on offense so you can't ignore those numbers. Yes, rotations and roster construction matter, but using the sample sizes of career numbers goes a damn long way in dialing down the 'noise'

and lets be clear about something here. YOU were the one that opened the door to that particular discussion when you tried to justify Ant's shitty defense by comparing him to Harden, Dame, and Doncic (after arguing that Donovan Mitchell was only a "smidge" better than Ant). It's true...they are poor defenders, but they do much much more on the other end of the floor than Ant does.

By the way, Dame-Harden-Doncic have combined for 23 all-star games and 19 all-NBA selections. You might want to lower your target range for future Ant comparisons.

I'm saying those defensive stat may be able to tell you if someone should be categorized as a good/mediocre/poor defender, but precisely ranking them within those categories is a lot more dubious, because it's a low-fi stat.

I don't put much stock in all-star appearances. I think Ant is on the cusp of being one of the elite scorers in the league. You're allowed to suck on defense if you're a top scorer, and a team can afford to have at least 1 such player, just as a defensive specialist who can't score is ok if surrounded by enough offense.

 

[beast blazer]

Question for all of you who are antsy to trade Ant:

Hypothetically, let's say we didn't get the #3 spot to draft Scoot, and we got one of the Thompson twins. Would you still be eager to deal/upgrade Simons, or would you have him penciled in as being the probable PG of our new core, like Sharpe at SG?

I see Simons as being on a similar trajectory as Damian Lillard. Very good offensively, fair play maker, bad defense. The issue is surrounding him with enough talent.

 

[Natebishop3]

Question for all of you who are antsy to trade Ant:

Hypothetically, let's say we didn't get the #3 spot to draft Scoot, and we got one of the Thompson twins. Would you still be eager to deal/upgrade Simons, or would you have him penciled in as being the probable PG of our new core, like Sharpe at SG?

I see Simons as being on a similar trajectory as Damian Lillard. Very good offensively, fair play maker, bad defense. The issue is surrounding him with enough talent.

Simons is not Dame. Full stop.

But if we didn’t have Scoot, there would be no reason to move Simons.

 

[wizenheimer]

I think Ant is on the cusp of being one of the elite scorers in the league. You're allowed to suck on defense if you're a top scorer, and a team can afford to have at least 1 such player, just as a defensive specialist who can't score is ok if surrounded by enough offense.

I see Simons as being on a similar trajectory as Damian Lillard.

just to remind....Ant is 25 and will be entering his 7th season as a small guard. It's extremely rare for NBA players like him to make big leaps upward in their 7th, 8th & 9th seasons; and even rarer for them to significantly improve defensively

last season, among 'qualified' NBA players, he finished

* TS% - 126th out of 193
* PER - 87th out of 185
* eFG% - 108th out of 140
* Assist Rate - 30th out of 185 (tied with D'Angelo Russell and Kelly Olynyk)
* OBPM - 32nd out of 185
* BPM - 95th out of 185
* winshares/48 - 146th out of 185

* DBPM - 183rd out of 185
* defensive rating - 523rd out of 572

that doesn't looks like a player on the cusp of being elite; looks like on the cusp of being a little above average. Again, Ant has played 6 seasons. After 6 seasons, Dame had been in 3 all-star games and been named all-NBA three times including all-NBA-1st-team. It's wild to claim those are similar trajectories

maybe the problem is the definition of 'elite'. You seem to have a real loose standard for elite, at least when it comes to Simons

 

[CJ_is_Gone]

just to remind....Ant is 25 and will be entering his 7th season as a small guard. It's extremely rare for NBA players like him to make big leaps upward in their 8th & 9th seasons; and even rarer for them to significantly improve defensively

last season, among 'qualified' NBA players, he finished

* TS% - 126th out of 193
* PER - 87th out of 185
* eFG% - 108th out of 140
* Assist Rate - 30th out of 185 (tied with D'Angelo Russell and Kelly Olynyk)
* OBPM - 32nd out of 185
* BPM - 95th out of 185
* winshares/48 - 146th out of 185

* DBPM - 183rd out of 185
* defensive rating - 523rd out of 572

that doesn't looks like a player on the cusp of being elite; looks like on the cusp of being a little above average. Again, Ant has played 6 seasons. After 6 seasons, Dame had been in 3 all-star games and been named all-NBA three times including all-NBA-1st-team. It's wild to claim those are similar trajectories

maybe the problem is the definition of 'elite'. You seem to have a real loose standard for elite, at least when it comes to Simons

I just hope that Ant can become a net-positive player.
I still have my doubts on that.

 

[sheed30]

just to remind....Ant is 25 and will be entering his 7th season as a small guard. It's extremely rare for NBA players like him to make big leaps upward in their 8th & 9th seasons; and even rarer for them to significantly improve defensively

last season, among 'qualified' NBA players, he finished

* TS% - 126th out of 193
* PER - 87th out of 185
* eFG% - 108th out of 140
* Assist Rate - 30th out of 185 (tied with D'Angelo Russell and Kelly Olynyk)
* OBPM - 32nd out of 185
* BPM - 95th out of 185
* winshares/48 - 146th out of 185

* DBPM - 183rd out of 185
* defensive rating - 523rd out of 572

that doesn't looks like a player on the cusp of being elite; looks like on the cusp of being a little above average. Again, Ant has played 6 seasons. After 6 seasons, Dame had been in 3 all-star games and been named all-NBA three times including all-NBA-1st-team. It's wild to claim those are similar trajectories

maybe the problem is the definition of 'elite'. You seem to have a real loose standard for elite, at least when it comes to Simons

1. Imagine using stats from his couple season when he barley played or was playing garbage time minutes

2. Those stats are so meaningless is laughable. And I can tell you teams 100% don’t look at that to gauge a player offensively or defensively.

3. what one player has around him players wise will also determine how those stats, so they don’t tell the whole story.

Keep rambling

 

[wizenheimer]

1. Imagine using stats from his couple season when he barley played or was playing garbage time minutes

are you dense?

those numbers you quoted were from last season

 

[sheed30]

are you dense?

those numbers were from last season, not from his 1st or 2nd season

You have posted his career stats before here.

also, do you know the whole blazer team was 27th in team defense last year?

What crappy stats you are pulling out, like I said teams dont look at those stats to gauge a player offensively of defensively.

BPM? Box plus minus lmao..

DBPM? Defensive Box Plus Minus is the most flawed stats around lmao.

OBPM? Come on, a lot of what you posted always is a big part of team defense. So of course if you pull up stats on a player on a bad defensive team, their stats wont look so good either.

How about you show us Scoot stats? lmao..I also bet you most people don't even understand what those stats mean, BPM and etc.

Continue on negative Nancy's, you people always looking for a scapegoat every season.

Please show us Scoot stats too, lets see it. Will see how faulted those stats are since Scoot will have similar or even worse stats.

 

[beast blazer]

just to remind....Ant is 25 and will be entering his 7th season as a small guard. It's extremely rare for NBA players like him to make big leaps upward in their 8th & 9th seasons; and even rarer for them to significantly improve defensively

last season, among 'qualified' NBA players, he finished

* TS% - 126th out of 193
* PER - 87th out of 185
* eFG% - 108th out of 140
* Assist Rate - 30th out of 185 (tied with D'Angelo Russell and Kelly Olynyk)
* OBPM - 32nd out of 185
* BPM - 95th out of 185
* winshares/48 - 146th out of 185

* DBPM - 183rd out of 185
* defensive rating - 523rd out of 572

that doesn't looks like a player on the cusp of being elite; looks like on the cusp of being a little above average. Again, Ant has played 6 seasons. After 6 seasons, Dame had been in 3 all-star games and been named all-NBA three times including all-NBA-1st-team. It's wild to claim those are similar trajectories

maybe the problem is the definition of 'elite'. You seem to have a real loose standard for elite, at least when it comes to Simons

Remember that Ant came out in HS. When Dame was 24 and 25 his TS% was 56%, and Ant has already exceeded that. You can clearly see the ability.

And there is a difference between comparing the TS% of players that are the focus of opposing defenses, and expected to carry the load, vs role players who are able to pick their spots.

 

[sheed30]

Remember that Ant came out in HS. When Dame was 24 and 25 his TS% was 56%, and Ant has already exceeded that. You can clearly see the ability.

And there is a difference between comparing the TS% of players that are the focus of opposing defenses, and expected to carry the load, vs role players who are able to pick their spots.

Ask him to show us Scoot stats as well. It will be the same or similar, guess that means Scoot is a horrible defender too right guys?

You can’t really use just stats to determine how good a player is defensively. It’s a lot of things that don’t go in a box score

Also defensive rating is a better metric to use for a team’s defense rather than an individual’s, because sometimes an individual’s defensive rating can be affected by the defenders around them

 

[HoopsFanAZ]

Ant is a get-his-own-bucket, 3-level scorer with Dame-moves … and who has improved on both initiating and playing some D. Ant vs. CJ? Ant. He’s not a trade him to get it done guy. With Scoot and Sharpe, I’m confident the Blazers choose to get value in a Simon’s trade.

The reality of the Malcolm-plus trade for Deni is pending — but it was a strong move combined with getting their chosen guy while not moving up from 7.

Grant is looking like the next domino. It’s Deni at the 3 with Walker, Murray, Camara and Reath fighting for the 4-spot.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

But if we didn’t have Scoot, there would be no reason to move Simons.

Actually a good argument to run back these 3 guards next season. I'm not convinced Scoot is a starting level NBA PG. Would hate to move Ant now, acquire a couple great forwards, Scoot underwhelms, and in a few years time we're ready to contend but desperately lacking a starting PG.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Actually a good argument to run back these 3 guards next season. I'm not convinced Scoot is a starting level NBA PG. Would hate to move Ant now, acquire a couple great forwards, Scoot underwhelms, and in a few years time we're ready to contend but desperately lacking a starting PG.

Ant isn't a starting PG for a contending team either. If Scoot isn't the answer at PG we need to find out sooner rather than later. But he needs to have the job before we can figure that out.

Trade Ant for a pick and we can take a shot at another PG with that pick if need be.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Actually a good argument to run back these 3 guards next season. I'm not convinced Scoot is a starting level NBA PG. Would hate to move Ant now, acquire a couple great forwards, Scoot underwhelms, and in a few years time we're ready to contend but desperately lacking a starting PG.

I think it depends on what you want from your pg. per 36, Scoot averaged more assists, more FTA and played better defense.

 

[sheed30]

I think it depends on what you want from your pg. per 36, Scoot averaged more assists, more FTA and played better defense.

He also averages way more turnovers per 36 mins, a worse FG and 3%, and can’t consistently hit 3’s to spread the floor.

 

[Tince]

I always look at talent using the definition of "the natural endowments of a person".

Given that, I am not sure that the Dame/CJ group was more talented, it certainly had more "actualized" talent in the form of skill / experience gained through hard work and luck (injury).

In a perfect world where the Sharpe / Scoot group works hard and manage to develop and actualize their talent, I think they can achieve more because the talent is there, simply because of the athletic ability and size.

Yeah, "talent" it's always a tricky way to measure things. Nate is smart to use terms like that so he can have wiggleroom when he makes those types of statements.

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah, "talent" it's always a tricky way to measure things. Nate is smart to use terms like that so he can have wiggleroom when he makes those types of statements.

 

[wizenheimer]

also, do you know the whole blazer team was 27th in team defense last year?

What crappy stats you are pulling out, like I said teams dont look at those stats to gauge a player offensively of defensively.

you don't know what gauges teams look at; none of us do. You can pretend like you do, but nobody is buying

yes....Portland was a shitty defensive team last season. So, on the 4th shittiest defensive team last season...

defensive rating:

Moses Brown 114
Matisse Thybulle 114
Deandre Ayton 114
Ibou Badji 115
Jabari Walker 116
Ashton Hagans 117
Dalano Banton 117
Duop Reath 117
Toumani Camara 117
Kris Murray 118
Skylar Mays 119
Shaedon Sharpe 119
Justin Minaya 120
Rayan Rupert 120
Malcolm Brogdon 120
Scoot Henderson 120
Jerami Grant 120
Anfernee Simons 121


defensive box +/-:

Matisse Thybulle 3.4
Robert Williams 2.9
Ibou Badji 1.9
Ashton Hagans 0.9
Toumani Camara 0.0
Deandre Ayton -0.2
Kris Murray -0.2
Justin Minaya -0.5
Duop Reath -0.7
Malcolm Brogdon -0.7
Jabari Walker -0.9
Shaedon Sharpe -0.9
Dalano Banton -0.9
Jerami Grant -1.1
Rayan Rupert -1.2
Scoot Henderson -2.3
Moses Brown -2.4
Anfernee Simons -2.5

Ant was dead last in both categories. His defensive rating was 3.5 points worse than his team's. That's persuasive

but arguing about the validity of his defensive stats isn't necessary. We saw Ant's defense last season and just about everybody who watched knows that Ant absolutely sucked at defense. His reactions were terrible, his lateral mobility was poor, and his rotations were constantly confused. Those stats are just confirming the eyeball test.

state your case, of all the Blazer players who logged 20 games or more last season, which were actually worse defenders than Ant?
****************************************************************

by the way, the 2022-23 Blazers

defensive rating:

Jusuf Nurkić 114
Drew Eubanks 115
Gary Payton II 116
Matisse Thybulle 116
Justise Winslow 118
Josh Hart 118
John Butler 119
Keon Johnson 119
Cam Reddish 119
Trendon Watford 119
Kevin Knox 120
Jabari Walker 120
Nassir Little 120
Jerami Grant 120
Shaedon Sharpe 121
Damian Lillard 121
Anfernee Simons 123

DBPM:

Gary Payton II 1.4
Matisse Thybulle 1.1
Drew Eubanks 0.9
Josh Hart 0.7
Jusuf Nurkić 0.7
Justise Winslow 0.6
Trendon Watford -0.4
Damian Lillard -1.2
Jerami Grant -1.4
Nassir Little -1.4
Keon Johnson -1.6
Shaedon Sharpe -2.0
Jabari Walker -2.1
Anfernee Simons -2.5
Kevin Knox -2.7

2021-22 shows the same thing. Anfernee Simons: unfairly the victim of consistently misleading defensive stats. Thank god for Kevin Knox, right?

 

[Mediocre Man]

He also averages way more turnovers per 36 mins, a worse FG and 3%, and can’t consistently hit 3’s to spread the floor.

Ya. He’s young.

 

[sheed30]

you don't know what gauges teams look at; none of us do. You can pretend like you do, but nobody is buying

yes....Portland was a shitty defensive team last season. So, on the 4th shittiest defensive team last season...

defensive rating:

Moses Brown 114
Matisse Thybulle 114
Deandre Ayton 114
Ibou Badji 115
Jabari Walker 116
Ashton Hagans 117
Dalano Banton 117
Duop Reath 117
Toumani Camara 117
Kris Murray 118
Skylar Mays 119
Shaedon Sharpe 119
Justin Minaya 120
Rayan Rupert 120
Malcolm Brogdon 120
Scoot Henderson 120
Jerami Grant 120
Anfernee Simons 121


defensive box +/-:

Matisse Thybulle 3.4
Robert Williams 2.9
Ibou Badji 1.9
Ashton Hagans 0.9
Toumani Camara 0.0
Deandre Ayton -0.2
Kris Murray -0.2
Justin Minaya -0.5
Duop Reath -0.7
Malcolm Brogdon -0.7
Jabari Walker -0.9
Shaedon Sharpe -0.9
Dalano Banton -0.9
Jerami Grant -1.1
Rayan Rupert -1.2
Scoot Henderson -2.3
Moses Brown -2.4
Anfernee Simons -2.5

Ant was dead last in both categories. His defensive rating was 3.5 points worse than his team's. That's persuasive

but arguing about the validity of his defensive stats isn't necessary. We saw Ant's defense last season and just about everybody who watched knows that Ant absolutely sucked at defense. His reactions were terrible, his lateral mobility was poor, and his rotations were constantly confused. Those stats are just confirming the eyeball test.

state your case, of all the Blazer players who logged 20 games or more last season, which were actually worse defenders than Ant?
****************************************************************

by the way, the 2022-23 Blazers

defensive rating:

Jusuf Nurkić 114
Drew Eubanks 115
Gary Payton II 116
Matisse Thybulle 116
Justise Winslow 118
Josh Hart 118
John Butler 119
Keon Johnson 119
Cam Reddish 119
Trendon Watford 119
Kevin Knox 120
Jabari Walker 120
Nassir Little 120
Jerami Grant 120
Shaedon Sharpe 121
Damian Lillard 121
Anfernee Simons 123

DBPM:

Gary Payton II 1.4
Matisse Thybulle 1.1
Drew Eubanks 0.9
Josh Hart 0.7
Jusuf Nurkić 0.7
Justise Winslow 0.6
Trendon Watford -0.4
Damian Lillard -1.2
Jerami Grant -1.4
Nassir Little -1.4
Keon Johnson -1.6
Shaedon Sharpe -2.0
Jabari Walker -2.1
Anfernee Simons -2.5
Kevin Knox -2.7

2021-22 shows the same thing. Anfernee Simons: unfairly the victim of consistently misleading defensive stats. Thank god for Kevin Knox, right?

Ok first off all, why didn't you post Scoot stats as well when I asked to compare it to Ant's?

BTW, I have a wonderful stat for you. Did you know Scoot is the 6th worse plus/minus in the ENTIRE NBA? Let me repeat, 6th WORSE in the NBA. That's a great stat isn't it? Your crappy DBPM stats are horrible, and I love how you left out Scoot's full stats and didn't even use PLUS/MINUS, which Scoot is horrible in.

Also, you are actually helping my argument for those saying Scoot is a good defender and better than Ant, since you did the full team stats. Scoot is barely, and I repeat barely better than Simons in those dumb stats you posted. So if you're going to bash Simons, bash Scoot too.

But no, guys are to bias in their judgment in Ant then they go and shoot themselves in the foot by saying Scoot is a better defender lmao. Thanks bro, and egg in the face to those that say Scoot is a better defender lol. 6th worse plus/minus in the ENTIRE NBA!

 

[sheed30]

Ya. He’s young.

so was Sebastian Telfair. I can play this game with you guys all day long, you guys want to spin it one way and i counter and spin it the other way.

 

[Mediocre Man]

so was Sebastian Telfair. I can play this game with you guys all day long, you guys want to spin it one way and i counter and spin it the other way.

But why?

 

[sheed30]

But why?

But why? All you can say is he is young. That doesn't mean anything. Did Westbrooke, someone who Scoot looks up too, improve his 3's and FT% as he got older? Ill wait for you to answer that. You see, you can't reply anything really, but Ill answer your question.

Many are fickle and bias in here, consistently put a negative spin on things when they want to try and make a point, and when they voice their reasons why, in sight in makes them look so silly and makes little sense.

Talking about Ant's defense then saying Scoot is a better/good defender, then wizenheimer silly defensive stats showing Scoot is BARELY and basically just as bad as Ant is hilarious. They basically put their own foot in their mouth.

Not to mention Scoot has the 6th worse plus/minus stats in the whole NBA. I don't even put anything into that dumb plus/minus stats as its flawed too, but once again, I can play that game and put a spin on things.

 

[Blazinaway]

No argument that Scoot has a LOT to prove this year, for me this coming season should pretty much tell us whether he will eventually be a starting caliber PG. If we don't trade Ant I would bring him off the bench whether he likes it or not. Let Scoot and Shae start and see where the chips fall.

 

[Natebishop3]

Ok first off all, why didn't you post Scoot stats as well when I asked to compare it to Ant's?

BTW, I have a wonderful stat for you. Did you know Scoot is the 6th worse plus/minus in the ENTIRE NBA? Let me repeat, 6th WORSE in the NBA. That's a great stat isn't it? Your crappy DBPM stats are horrible, and I love how you left out Scoot's full stats and didn't even use PLUS/MINUS, which Scoot is horrible in.

Also, you are actually helping my argument for those saying Scoot is a good defender and better than Ant, since you did the full team stats. Scoot is barely, and I repeat barely better than Simons in those dumb stats you posted. So if you're going to bash Simons, bash Scoot too.

But no, guys are to bias in their judgment in Ant then they go and shoot themselves in the foot by saying Scoot is a better defender lmao. Thanks bro, and egg in the face to those that say Scoot is a better defender lol. 6th worse plus/minus in the ENTIRE NBA!

Who cares about plus minus? Why did you pick that stat?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ok first off all, why didn't you post Scoot stats as well when I asked to compare it to Ant's?

BTW, I have a wonderful stat for you. Did you know Scoot is the 6th worse plus/minus in the ENTIRE NBA? Let me repeat, 6th WORSE in the NBA. That's a great stat isn't it? Your crappy DBPM stats are horrible, and I love how you left out Scoot's full stats and didn't even use PLUS/MINUS, which Scoot is horrible in.

Also, you are actually helping my argument for those saying Scoot is a good defender and better than Ant, since you did the full team stats. Scoot is barely, and I repeat barely better than Simons in those dumb stats you posted. So if you're going to bash Simons, bash Scoot too.

But no, guys are to bias in their judgment in Ant then they go and shoot themselves in the foot by saying Scoot is a better defender lmao. Thanks bro, and egg in the face to those that say Scoot is a better defender lol. 6th worse plus/minus in the ENTIRE NBA!

6yrs in league vs 1. We can afford to give Scoot more time..

We'll start getting less return on Ant the longer we keep him.

If Scoot can't get it done as the lead point we need to know that sooner rather than later. We already know that Ant isn't good enough and he won't be making any huge leaps after his 6th year in the league.

 

[sheed30]

Who cares about plus minus? Why did you pick that stat?

If you read the post below, i literally said I don’t even care about plus/minus stats because it’s flawed.

And I certainly don’t care about the even more flawed stats that wizenheimer posted to try to prove his point.

so thank you, who cares about plus/minus stats and who cares about the even more faulty stats that wizenheimer posted.

you just helped my argument that him posting those stats are a joke.

 

[Hoopguru]

You think Joe is trying to trade Ant to a destination he prefers?

Is it that Ant doesn't have what other teams want, or is it that Joe has a hard time peddling players?
Or both?

 

[sheed30]

6yrs in league vs 1. We can afford to give Scoot more time..

We'll start getting less return on Ant the longer we keep him.

If Scoot can't get it done as the lead point we need to know that sooner rather than later. We already know that Ant isn't good enough and he won't be making any huge leaps after his 6th year in the league.

Well here goes another countered point that makes what you said flawed.

How many games has Ant actually been starting as our starting PG? I’ll wait.

Scoot has more starts at the PG than Ant lmao.

If you want to talk about sample size and we talking about strictly the PG starting spot, Ant sample size is smaller than Scoot.

Ant has really only had 2 seasons where he was consistent starter. The year with Dame when he was playing SG.

last season he started the season as our starting SG and only slide into the starting PG role after Scoot got hurt. Oh and Ant missed a big chunk to start last season with a hand injury.

 

[wizenheimer]

Ok first off all, why didn't you post Scoot stats as well when I asked to compare it to Ant's?
!

I didn't post about Scoot because it was a debate about Ant in a thread about Ant

just because Scott had a disappointing rookie season as a 19 year old NBA PG doesn't mean those Simons stats I posted were inaccurate. Those were just the numbers. You're allowed to add any context you want.