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Phatguysrule said:
If you have a better idea than them running the pick and roll I'd love to hear it.

They both have all the talent and skill necessary to do it. At the highest level it's ever been done.

They have decent shooters who could play off of it as well.

What alternative are you proposing would be more successful?
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What did giannis and jrue do to win a title? What was the usage of each? What was the pick and roll frequency?
I dont have a solution, and frankly don't give a shit. Dames a buck not a Blazer. I don't have his best interest in heart. I don't care about anyone's success beyond our team. Just seems silly to paint giannis as the unadaptable one when he won a title and dame hasn't. Doc is a shit coach. I'd blame him first. But I sure wouldn't blame giannis next
 
RR7 said:
What did giannis and jrue do to win a title? What was the usage of each? What was the pick and roll frequency?
I dont have a solution, and frankly don't give a shit. Dames a buck not a Blazer. I don't have his best interest in heart. I don't care about anyone's success beyond our team. Just seems silly to paint giannis as the unadaptable one when he won a title and dame hasn't. Doc is a shit coach. I'd blame him first. But I sure wouldn't blame giannis next
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Jrue played elite level defense. Expecting Dame to do that would be kind of stupid at this point in his career.

That's not saying anything in support of or in defense of Dame. It's just a fact. Dame isn't going to be as good of a defender as Jrue. And Jrue's defense wasn't even enough most of the time.

The whole reason I was excited about Dame going to Milwaukee was to watch how much better Giannis could be with an elite pick and roll point guard like Dame.

Nobody expected Milwaukee's defense to improve when they traded for Dame. Because that would have been stupid.

What did they do with Jrue? They played great defense and then got the hell out of Giannis's way on offense. And hoped that he would pass the ball out to the open three-point shooter.

My claim was that Giannis isn't a good teammate. And that's holding them back.

Everybody else is doing everything possible. Dame is doing his job. The job they brought him in to do.

Giannis is hurting the team by being unwilling or incapable of playing team basketball.

I'm not necessarily blaming Giannis. But he's the only one who has the capability to do better than he's doing now. Set a fucking screen and roll to the fucking basket. This is not hard. It is a choice he's making.

For example, Dame isn't choosing to miss shots. Unless you think he's not getting his reps? I find that highly doubtful.

Giannis choosing to run the pick and roll correctly is certainly not as hard as getting Damian Lillard to play elite level defense.
 
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The interesting thing about P&R efficiency when you look at Dame, Jrue and Giannis - is that both Jrue and Dame have the same efficiency in P&R per possession when playing in Milwaukee -
Dame: 1.07 PPP in 2024-2025 and 0.99 in 2023-2024
Jrue: 1.00 PPP in 2022-2023, Same in 2021-2022, 0.98 in 2020-2021

So, they are pretty similar next to Giannis / Milwaukee

The interesting thing to notice is that Jrue has never been that good anywhere where he has been - 0.8-0.9 in both NOP and BOS while Dame has been floating around 1.00 to 1.12 PPP in Portland - So you could argue that Dame's efficiency at the P&R has not really been much different when playing next to Giannis while Jrue has clearly really benefitted from playing next to Giannis.

The other interesting thing to look at is that Giannis as the ball handler in the PPP is just as efficient as Dame is - and his highest (2023-2024) of 1.15 is actually higher than any year of Dame's efficiency in P&R as the ball handler.

The other side of the equation is to look at Giannis's efficiency as the roll-man next to Dame (highest was 1.23 in 2023-2024) vs. Jrue (highest was 1.34 in 2021-2022).

I think that there is actual numeric evidence that Giannis lifted Jrue's game as a P&R ball handler and he worked better (more efficient) as a roll man next to Jrue.

Some of this actually makes a lot of sense logically, Dame's power in the P&R in the ball handler role is that he is so quick and so good getting into the paint - that a lot of the efficiency comes from Dame actually being the one that finishes the possession in the paint. When you look at the years Dame had his most efficient P&R results in Portland - it was not the years when Nurkic was setting massive picks for him - and I think it's the same reason that his efficiency next to Giannis is not as high as one would hope - both of these guys need to be roll man to be effective in the P&R and thus are clogging the paint for Dame. Dame's best P&R years are the years when he had a roll man that was effective as a pick and pop threat.

I would argue that the issue here is not Giannis being a bad teammate or anything, Giannis is as efficient as Dame is as a ball-handler in the P&R (more efficient than Dame is when they are on the same team), it makes sense to make him the ball handler more often than Dame in this case
Also Dame is better as a P&R ball handler when he gets his picks from people that will not clog the paint for him.

Final thought, one of the big issues that separates Dame from Steph - is that Dame needs the ball in his hand to be efficient, Steph does not. This is why this Milwaukee thing failed, not because Giannis is a bad teammate, but because Giannis, like Dame, needs the ball to be efficient. When you have 2 ball dominant players on the roster - it only makes sense to feature the more dominant / efficient of the two. It's no one's fault really, they just do not have the skills to complement each other based on their respective strengths.

Last point, if you look at Milwaukee only, 2023-2024 Dame and Giannis P&R efficiency is 0.92, Dame and Lopez efficiency is 0.96 - exactly for that reason, Lopez is a P&P threat, Giannis is not.
 
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Could we possibly discuss the very exciting NBA Finals instead of bashing arguably most lived Blazer ever?
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Giannis is awesome. No doubt about it. He fills up the stats sheet. I would have loved if we had drafted him.
Yet......his outside shooting knocks him down a peg in my eyes in terms of a superstar. If the Suns don't melt down defensively in those 2 middle quarters in game 5 in the finals, the narrative of Giannis is probably different. (and probably for Ayton as well) Up to that point the home team was kicking ass every game.
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So Shaq wasn’t a superstar because he couldn’t hit a 3? Giannis has 2 MVPs, 1 DPOY, and a Finals MVP. He’s the only player in the NBA with all those awards. If he’s not an A+ Superstar, no one is.
 
KingSpeed said:
So Shaq wasn’t a superstar because he couldn’t hit a 3? Giannis has 2 MVPs, 1 DPOY, and a Finals MVP. He’s the only player in the NBA with all those awards. If he’s not an A+ Superstar, no one is.
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Yes, he is awesome, just like I said.

But yeah, much like Shaq, I would prefer someone else taking the last shot of the game.
 
crandc said:
Could we possibly discuss the very exciting NBA Finals instead of bashing arguably most lived Blazer ever?
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I believe that's what the OKC vs Pacers thread is for. This is a catch-all for around the NBA like what we have on a monthly basis, but during the entire playoffs run - so discussing what works and does not work in the Bucks organization as there are expected changes afoot seems like a reasonable place...
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Swap a healthy Dame with Haliburton and are the Pacers better? I suspect they'd be MUCH worse.

Haliburton, Siakam, and coach Rick have done a great job of building an offense that gets everybody involved but that the stars can score when needed. Put an ISO player like Dame in command with horrible D and it's a totally different team.
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The thing is that it would be a totally different team but not a team with different skills at all but one roster spot. Dame does things on offense that would make things a lot easier for the guys in the Pacers rotation. They wouldn't be the dominant force on defense that they are, that's for sure but the guys around Dame would be the best defenders he's ever played with.

I said it in the post that you were responding to, Haliburton is the better all around player because he is the better defender and rebounder by miles. I just don't know for sure if switching out prime or more accurately 25 year old Dame would result in a worse record or a different playoff situation.
 
blazerkor said:
The thing is that it would be a totally different team but not a team with different skills at all but one roster spot. Dame does things on offense that would make things a lot easier for the guys in the Pacers rotation. They wouldn't be the dominant force on defense that they are, that's for sure but the guys around Dame would be the best defenders he's ever played with.

I said it in the post that you were responding to, Haliburton is the better all around player because he is the better defender and rebounder by miles. I just don't know for sure if switching out prime or more accurately 25 year old Dame would result in a worse record or a different playoff situation.
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Dame is actually a slightly better rebounder
 
The reason the new TV contract I believe was so astronomical, as will the next one. TV money is the true measuring stick of the success or lack there of.
 
KD should go back to OKC. With the assets they have it could work and he would close out games for them.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
KD should go back to OKC. With the assets they have it could work and he would close out games for them.
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It would make sense to retire where he began, but they are going to have a hard enough time paying players as it is. Will they want his contract? He does expire after next season, but $54 million next season on just him would hurt.
 
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