Around the NBA 2022 Playoffs: The Thread

[calvin natt]

All elite on both ends. Curry's offense isn't even that much better than theirs... definitely not enough to offset the fact that he's not a good defender and they're all time defenders. Steph is the greatest shooter of all time but that's just one skill. The rest of his strengths are great compared to the guys he's playing with and against but they aren't generationally transcendent. His weaknesses are covered by the system he plays in and players he's played with. I think he's top 25 but he's not top 10.

Ok.

 

[calvin natt]

The more I think of it the more confident I am that he’s top 10.

MJ
LJ
KAJ
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Russell
Steph
Wilt
Bird
Hakeem
Oscar

 

[blazerkor]

The more I think of it the more confident I am that he’s top 10.

MJ
LJ
KAJ
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Russell
Steph
Wilt
Bird
Hakeem
Oscar

The fact that you have him over three guys who were two way juggernauts when his team has to bail him out any time any player posts him up on defense is crazy. Wilt, Bird and Hakeem dominated on both ends of the court. Do you think Steph dominates on both ends of the court? Oh and Oscar wasn't a defensive liability either he just didn't dominate on both ends the way the other three you put below Steph did.

 

[calvin natt]

The fact that you have him over three guys who were two way juggernauts when his team has to bail him out any time any player posts him up on defense is crazy. Wilt, Bird and Hakeem dominated on both ends of the court. Do you think Steph dominates on both ends of the court? Oh and Oscar wasn't a defensive liability either he just didn't dominate on both ends the way the other three you put below Steph did.

I have a hard time with Wilts lack of titles and the fact that he played against plumbers. Oscar too. Legends but sorry, the game is different. Mike Trout is a better player than Babe Ruth. And Bird, who I love, is close. But while his defense was good, it wasn’t “dominant”. All defense 2nd team three times. That’s good. Not dominant. All great players. Steph transformed the game by himself. Period. He’s won 4 titles, the best shooter ever (it’s not close), is underrated defensively, gets to the rim extremely well (he’s not just a shooter), he’s the perfect teammate, a good passer, he’s in my top 10. I wouldn’t call Tim Duncan elite offensively (19 ppg, 50% FG) but he was a winner, defensively elite, a winner, and top 10.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

The fact that you have him over three guys who were two way juggernauts when his team has to bail him out any time any player posts him up on defense is crazy. Wilt, Bird and Hakeem dominated on both ends of the court. Do you think Steph dominates on both ends of the court? Oh and Oscar wasn't a defensive liability either he just didn't dominate on both ends the way the other three you put below Steph did.

I watched Larry Bird his entire career. I seriously never thought he was dominant on the defensive end. Smart yes. He did make plays but the game was much different then and he was never asked to play the kind of defense players must play now. That was not his role. On top of that for the last 4 years of his career he was nursing a bad back most of the time. He was pretty slow and certainly was not a jumper.
One of the all time greats most certainly but "Dominant on Defense"? I don't really think so.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

The more I think of it the more confident I am that he’s top 10.

MJ
LJ
KAJ
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Russell
Steph
Wilt
Bird
Hakeem
Oscar

Curry isn’t better than Bird. Geezus. And Akeem was better on both ends of the court.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

LeBron will be the all time leading scooter in league history before the end of next season, will be top 5 in assists, and is the career playoff leader in many categories. You are one of very few who would say he's not in the GOAT conversation.

Jordan is better. Not close. Look at Jordan’s resume. It’s ridiculous. All time stats don’t mean much. No one considers Stockton the best PG ever (except maybe me) and he leads in assists and steals.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

No one considers Stockton the best PG ever (except maybe me) and he leads in assists and steals.

But he's in the conversation, which is the same that can be said about LeBron.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

"scooter"...?

Phone Swypos are the best.

 

[illmatic99]

If you combine their luxury tax payment and their salaries, this GS roster cost upwards of 350 mil. That's the kinda financial commitment it takes to win.

Their 4th highest paid player makes 26 mil. They have 3 players making more than 30. They have two players making more than 40.

 

[Mr. Robot]

gsw could win another chip next season and thats frightening, but that will depend on health & motivation

klay will have entire season to get his shot back and work on his movement (remember how pg 13 looked after the injury and how he looks now), poole should get better with a lot of playing time and possibly bigger role to get him ready for the playoffs, wiggins & steph are fine as they are, their young guys (wiseman, moody, kuminga) should get playing time to develop themselves... my only concern for them is dray, he didnt looked like the player he once was, although last night he was terrific

 

[wizenheimer]

If you combine their luxury tax payment and their salaries, this GS roster cost upwards of 350 mil. That's the kinda financial commitment it takes to win.

Their 4th highest paid player makes 26 mil. They have 3 players making more than 30. They have two players making more than 40.

somebody needs to do a comparison of Warriors vs Blazers revenue. I think GS has led the NBA in gate receipts for years now. I think they have a new local TV contract worth several times that of Portland. And an international streaming rights deal. And naming rights contracts worth millions a year

it's easy to make a giant financial commitment when the cash is constantly flowing in. And of course it's easier to make that commitment when you definitely know you're a contender and not a pretender. In other words, comparison of financial situations might be a lot of apples to oranges. The age old big-market/small-market skew. It very well might be the Warriors can be profitable with a 350M payroll while Portland can't be at half that number

 

[illmatic99]

somebody needs to do a comparison of Warriors vs Blazers revenue. I think GS has led the NBA in gate receipts for years now. I think they have a new local TV contract worth several times that of Portland. And an international streaming rights deal. And naming rights contracts worth millions a year

it's easy to make a giant financial commitment when the cash is constantly flowing in. And of course it's easier to make that commitment when you definitely know you're a contender and not a pretender. In other words, comparison of financial situations might be a lot of apples to oranges. The age old big-market/small-market skew. It very well might be the Warriors can be profitable with a 350M payroll while Portland can't be at half that number

irrelevant to me as a fan. i just want a championship.

if being profitable is an indirect prerequisite to building a winning roster, then we have no chance at fielding a competitive team at all. profit-sharing be damned.

 

[TBpup]

Warriors won't win next year.

 

[e_blazer]

somebody needs to do a comparison of Warriors vs Blazers revenue. I think GS has led the NBA in gate receipts for years now. I think they have a new local TV contract worth several times that of Portland. And an international streaming rights deal. And naming rights contracts worth millions a year

it's easy to make a giant financial commitment when the cash is constantly flowing in. And of course it's easier to make that commitment when you definitely know you're a contender and not a pretender. In other words, comparison of financial situations might be a lot of apples to oranges. The age old big-market/small-market skew. It very well might be the Warriors can be profitable with a 350M payroll while Portland can't be at half that number

But isn’t that a chicken vs egg situation? Before Curry, Green and Thompson blossomed into the basketball machine that they’ve become, the Warriors couldn’t have been profitable paying that money either. If Olshey had actually built around Dame with an eye towards contending instead of just making the playoffs, that better version of the Blazers might be a much more lucrative cash machine than the current mess. Product probably trumps market size. Or maybe that’s what you meant?

 

[calvin natt]

But isn’t that a chicken vs egg situation? Before Curry, Green and Thompson blossomed into the basketball machine that they’ve become, the Warriors couldn’t have been profitable paying that money either. If Olshey had actually built around Dame with an eye towards contending instead of just making the playoffs, that better version of the Blazers might be a much more lucrative cash machine than the current mess. Product probably trumps market size. Or maybe that’s what you meant?

But they had those guys as rookies, who eventually blossomed into great players and weren’t paid a lot. Once they started to be a dynamic core, and started winning, they could start to spend. You have to have these guys young and let them grow. Like don’t trade away the 7th pick stuff

 

[illmatic99]

But they had those guys as rookies, who eventually blossomed into great players and weren’t paid a lot. Once they started to be a dynamic core, and started winning, they could start to spend. You have to have these guys young and let them grow. Like don’t trade away the 7th pick stuff

that's fine and all, but they didn't win this year only because of Curry/Dray/Klay. their second best player in the finals (as i had been saying for a while) was andrew wiggins. and the only way they got him on their roster was by doing a S&T with KD to land Russell, who they turned into Wiggins. they were already in luxury tax territory but did not bat an eye at signing a $30 mil risk (russell) in order to move him for a better fit later on. You can say this takes vision, but it's a risk that requires a strong foundation and deep pockets. The strategy is much the same when you consider their acquisition of Oubre last year at 14 mil cost them almost 86 mil in tax payments. Same with Payton II this year, and Porter, etc, etc.

we used to have an owner who used to recklessly spend like this. i miss those days.

 

[Pinwheel1]

that's fine and all, but they didn't win this year only because of Curry/Dray/Klay. their second best player in the finals (as i had been saying for a while) was Andrew Wiggins.

It seems to me that Wiggins got a lot of disrespect from this board in the past. I never really understood why except people took it out on him for not living up to being drafted #1. So was it good coaching by Kerr or being surrounded by the Warrior players for his improvement?

 

[illmatic99]

It seems to me that Wiggins got a lot of disrespect from this board in the past. I never really understood why except people took it out on him for not living up to being drafted #1. So was it good coaching by Kerr or being surrounded by the Warrior players for his improvement?

lil of both. this has now become a talking point among the NBA media folk last few days. Who is the next Wiggins, and can our team rescue him with a change of scenery?

Apparent criteria for said target:
- strong foundational talent who is miscast as a #1.
- coachable, desire to improve.
- willingness to listen. Recall his anti-vax stance to start the year. But he listened to his teammates who convinced him to change his mind for the team.
- strong skills at least on one end of the floor. Wiggins was always a strong defender. His offensive inefficiency was more the problem in Minny.
- zero injury history.
- Overpaid with dwindling trade value.

Possible names for us:
- Karl Towns, but his trade value is sky high at the moment unfortunately.
- Ben Simmons (injury list building)
- Jonathan Isaac (again a long injury history)
- Bagley
- Bamba
- Ayton
- Toppin

Ayton is sticking out to me. He's only 23. Can he take a leap? If he has a higher ceiling than where he is now, why not kick the tires?

 

[TBpup]

lil of both. this has now become a talking point among the NBA media folk last few days. Who is the next Wiggins, and can our team rescue him with a change of scenery?

Apparent criteria for said target:
- strong foundational talent who is miscast as a #1.
- coachable, desire to improve.
- willingness to listen. Recall his anti-vax stance to start the year. But he listened to his teammates who convinced him to change his mind for the team.
- strong skills at least on one end of the floor. Wiggins was always a strong defender. His offensive inefficiency was more the problem in Minny.
- zero injury history.
- Overpaid with dwindling trade value.

Possible names for us:
- Karl Towns, but his trade value is sky high at the moment unfortunately.
- Ben Simmons (injury list building)
- Jonathan Isaac (again a long injury history)
- Bagley
- Bamba
- Ayton
- Toppin

Simmons (healthy) would have been phenomenal here, but with CJ's contract gone, that ship has sailed.

Love Isaac's defensive chops....when healthy.
Think Bamba could work here as he was starting to play some '4' in Orlando opposite WCJr.

 

[illmatic99]

Simmons (healthy) would have been phenomenal here, but with CJ's contract gone, that ship has sailed.

Love Isaac's defensive chops....when healthy.
Think Bamba could work here as he was starting to play some '4' in Orlando opposite WCJr.

has the simmons ship really sailed though?

 

[wizenheimer]

But isn’t that a chicken vs egg situation?

maybe, to a degree; probably for gate receipts:





the Warriors are in a metro area that has several professional sports teams. So, if they aren't competitive there are other alternatives. They need great management and they've had it (including ownership). Portland had a completely shitty GM for a decade, and their current ownership sucks

but look at that 5 year period from 2015-16 thru 2019-20. Portland had 256M in gate receipts; Golden State had 769M. That's 103M year more Warriors generated in gate receipts alone. Then add in parking and concessions. How about luxury suites?...do they count toward gate receipts? And of course there are the local broadcast and streaming rights; and naming rights; and sponsorship deals. Warriors media market is a half million people larger than the entire state of Oregon

in other words, we could be looking at a 200-250M annual difference in local & international revenue, maybe more; maybe a lot more. Like I said, it's pretty easy for the Warriors to absorb 350M in payroll and tax, especially when they are winning championships

speaking of which, I have to wonder just how much of that GS revenue is due to the singular star-power of Stephen Curry? I'll bet it's a sizable share. People might consider that when they talk about why Portland doesn't seem interested in trading Lillard

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Jordan
LeBron
Duncan
Shaq
Akeem
Magic
Bird
KAJ
Russell
Wilt
Kobe
Oscar

What 3 players would you eliminate to put Curry in the Top 10?

A better question might be, "What 3 players would you eliminate to put Curry in the Top 10 that doesn't even include Jerry West?" Top 10 lists (especially as you get towards the bottom of that list) get ridiculously subjective, regardless of subject. But it does make for (literally) endless discussion and debate.......

 

[B-Roy]

speaking of which, I have to wonder just how much of that GS revenue is due to the singular star-power of Stephen Curry? I'll bet it's a sizable share. People might consider that when they talk about why Portland doesn't seem interested in trading Lillard

Portland is pretty expensive but they cannot charge as much for tickets as you can here in SF. People here are much more wealthy. There are casual millionaires just walking the streets.

A shitty lunch here is like $20+.

 

[illmatic99]

Portland is pretty expensive but they cannot charge as much for tickets as you can here in SF. People here are much more wealthy. There are casual millionaires just walking the streets.

A shitty lunch here is like $20+.

I also thought gate receipts were a drop in the bucket and the real revenue comes from TV deals and sponsorships. And those are not nearly as lucrative in markets like Portland compared to SF, LA, etc.

 

[calvin natt]

that's fine and all, but they didn't win this year only because of Curry/Dray/Klay. their second best player in the finals (as i had been saying for a while) was andrew wiggins. and the only way they got him on their roster was by doing a S&T with KD to land Russell, who they turned into Wiggins. they were already in luxury tax territory but did not bat an eye at signing a $30 mil risk (russell) in order to move him for a better fit later on. You can say this takes vision, but it's a risk that requires a strong foundation and deep pockets. The strategy is much the same when you consider their acquisition of Oubre last year at 14 mil cost them almost 86 mil in tax payments. Same with Payton II this year, and Porter, etc, etc.

we used to have an owner who used to recklessly spend like this. i miss those days.

No I am saying that they didn’t decide one day to go spend 350m. They realized they should because of the team. And they *could* because of market and success, tv, playoff revenue, etc. None of which Portland has. Golden State didn’t have to spend money initially because their stars weren’t on huge contracts yet.

 

[wizenheimer]

I also thought gate receipts were a drop in the bucket and the real revenue comes from TV deals and sponsorships. And those are not nearly as lucrative in markets like Portland compared to SF, LA, etc.

and that was my point. The Warriors can absorb a 180M tax easier than Portland can absorb a 20M tax (approximately)

for that championship roster, Golden State is spending money they have. To match, the Blazers would be spending money they don't have

 

[calvin natt]

I dont get why people don’t like Mathurin. Shoots well, he’s 6’6’, athletic. Why are we allergic to those guys? Because of Simons? Mathurin can play SF and SG.

 

[e_blazer]

maybe, to a degree; probably for gate receipts:

View attachment 47976

View attachment 47977

the Warriors are in a metro area that has several professional sports teams. So, if they aren't competitive there are other alternatives. They need great management and they've had it (including ownership). Portland had a completely shitty GM for a decade, and their current ownership sucks

but look at that 5 year period from 2015-16 thru 2019-20. Portland had 256M in gate receipts; Golden State had 769M. That's 103M year more Warriors generated in gate receipts alone. Then add in parking and concessions. How about luxury suites?...do they count toward gate receipts? And of course there are the local broadcast and streaming rights; and naming rights; and sponsorship deals. Warriors media market is a half million people larger than the entire state of Oregon

in other words, we could be looking at a 200-250M annual difference in local & international revenue, maybe more; maybe a lot more. Like I said, it's pretty easy for the Warriors to absorb 350M in payroll and tax, especially when they are winning championships

speaking of which, I have to wonder just how much of that GS revenue is due to the singular star-power of Stephen Curry? I'll bet it's a sizable share. People might consider that when they talk about why Portland doesn't seem interested in trading Lillard

During that period from 2015-2019 the Warriors won five conference titles an three NBA championships. That was the prime of the Curry-era Warriors. It was also the prime of their earning power. Look what happened in 2020 though, earnings fell off a cliff for the entire league due to the pandemic, but the Warriors' earnings were actually less than the Blazers'; probably because Curry and Thompson were injured and the Warriors weren't contenders.

I think we probably agree with the basic premise that everybody loves a winner and stays home most of the time if the team is a loser. I expect that we're on the same page that a bigger market is always going to have significantly more earnings potential than a smaller market team of comparable talent. I think it would be fascinating to see what the Blazers' earning potential would be today if they were fielding a true contender. The age of streaming broadens a team's potential audience. To me, the lesson that I'd like the Blazers to draw from the Warriors model is that regardless of market size, earnings increase dramatically for a contender vs. a perennial also-ran. Those extra earnings can fund a team that's spending well over the tax threshold.

 

[calvin natt]

I wish they had Olshey for the second round picks