Ayton

[robson]

He came here as DominAyton, max player, making twice as much as Nurk and your arguments about him being "ok" and why "we expect Bill Russel or Wilt" are like he was cheap big from g-league.
I am actually ok with him playing like he is. For 1/4 of money.

 

[Pinwheel1]

He came here as DominAyton, max player, making twice as much as Nurk and your arguments about him being "ok" and why "we expect Bill Russel or Wilt" are like he was cheap big from g-league.
I am actually ok with him playing like he is. For 1/4 of money.

So 8 million a year? Those days are long gone.

 

[PCmor7]

but I think you are being a little too dismissive about the value of a big man's FT rate. You mentioned Jokic's seemingly low rate for a C. Well, Jokic is currently averaging 3.6 more points/game from the FT line than Ayton. That is a substantial margin for one component of one player's contribution to a team score. More than the raw points though, is the value of getting the team into the bonus earlier in a quarter. That's going to generate more FT points than just those scored by the C. And, there's the value of potentially getting the other team's best rim protector in foul trouble and having him on the bench

Isn't this the very definition of moving goalposts?

Your original argument was that Ayton's low FT attempt percentage was a weakness, except that some of the very best players in the league on some of the best teams in the league are down there with him, so now you're qualifying that something else about Ayton in a similar vein is the problem.

 

[riverman]

Ayton is the guy I'd stay invested in..he's young and unlike Nurk, runs like a deer. When he gets some chemistry with whatever core they land on he's going to be a double double machine. He just missed 12 games and almost had a 20/20 game last game. I'm happy with this dude on the team no matter what nickname he throws around. Ayton, Grant and Walker is a pretty solid unit to build a core with.

 

[PCmor7]

He came here as DominAyton, max player, making twice as much as Nurk and your arguments about him being "ok" and why "we expect Bill Russel or Wilt" are like he was cheap big from g-league.
I am actually ok with him playing like he is. For 1/4 of money.

I was the one that mentioned Russell and Wilt but not nearly in the context you suggest. Please don't mischaracterize to suit your argument. The point was made that he was being held to a standard that even those players wouldn't have met, and that not being at that level had a poster saying he was at Whiteside/Przybilla-level or worse.

I also haven't seen anyone saying he's playing up to his contract, for whatever that's worth in today's NBA where there are a lot of players that are even less bang for their buck than him. We have a salary floor we have to meet. We have a young guy who averages a double-double, can defend guards on the pick-and-roll, can shoot consistently away from the basket and has started and performed in an NBA finals. We also needed to match salary.

He doesn't play to his contract, but he's closer to it than a lot of people want to admit. But if you are reading this thread and seeing some of the players to which Ayton is being compared by his detractors and this ^ post is what you're getting out of that, then I just am not sure you're coming at this without a bias you want to confirm.

 

[PCmor7]

yeah, I shouldn't have added eFG%. But when it comes to 2ptFG%:

Daniel Gafford .692
Jakob Poeltl .685
Moritz Wagner .675
Jarrett Allen .663
Ivica Zubac .655
Kristaps Porziņģis .649
Jalen Duren .641
Brook Lopez .640
Nic Claxton .638
Rudy Gobert .637
Nikola Jokić .635
Domantas Sabonis .629
Chet Holmgren .625
Myles Turner .622
Jonas Valančiūnas .616
Naz Reid .589
Zach Collins .583
Alperen Şengün .577
Anthony Davis .576
Joel Embiid .568
Clint Capela .567
Jusuf Nurkić .555
Nikola Vučević .541
Victor Wembanyama .540
Deandre Ayton .535

now, this is Ayton's worst season so that's probably fairly skewed. His career mark is .599 which would put him right behind Valunciunas

when it comes to gauging the impact FT's have on efficiency, then TS% is the go-to gauge. Ayton Career make of .617 compared to C's this season

Daniel Gafford .713
Jarrett Allen .688
Jakob Poeltl .675
Moritz Wagner .666
Ivica Zubac .665
Nikola Jokić .660
Kristaps Porziņģis .658
Rudy Gobert .652
Onyeka Okongwu .652
Joel Embiid .651
Jalen Duren .650
Domantas Sabonis .648
Nic Claxton .640
Chet Holmgren .639
Jonas Valančiūnas .639
Myles Turner .628
Dario Šarić .625
Anthony Davis .624
Naz Reid .620
Deandre Ayton .617 (career)

I wish bbref hadn't put a lot of searches behind a paywall. Used to be I could have sorted for career TS% for C's

And, again, I think the fact that a Anthony Davis is with him on both lists and Embiid is down there with him on the first list shows you that this stat in a vacuum is practically meaningless, and that Gafford, Poeltl and Allen are near the top on both reinforces that. Many of those latter guys aren't having plays run for them or are high-usage offensive players. They are scoring the vast majority of their points from point-blank range off lobs and put-backs and are very dependent on guard play and offensive system to set them up where they can score.

This list is skewed to low-usage, lower-option players. There are a few exceptions to that, but, for the most part, you can see guys that no GM would take over Ayton near the top of those lists.

 

[sheed30]

You seem to be talking about not recklessly going all out every possession rather than hustling in general throughout the game. Last night there were multiple examples of him hustling and making plays or hustling and forcing the other team to adjust which made plays for others.

Let's just mention another. There was a play in the second half where Ayton got stuck on VanVleet way outside. FVV kept trying to use his quickness and ability to create space to lose Ayton and couldn't, and it ended up being a 3-second violation on the Rockets.

Also, Segun with his unorthodox offensive game was able to score on Ayton pretty well in the second half. Except, late in the game, Ayton adjusted, manned up and stopped Segun when it mattered most.

If your benchmark for hustling and being a good player is going after every single play even when you have essentially no mathematical chance of making it and then wearing yourself out when there's a hustle play you can make, you probably could find examples negating any player in NBA history including Prime Jordan from being good. Ayton played more than 40 minutes, had 18-17, was like plus-11 or something and we won on the road in a back-to-back against what might be a playoff team.

I can understand disappointment in a player or maybe in their play versus their pay, but some of you guys are trying too hard and it shows. You're holding Ayton to a standard that not even Bill Russell or Wilt could reach.

It's not about going recklessly on every possession, it's more about coasting at times out there and not having that dog in him. And that's ok, he doesn't have to have that in him at all times. There is going be some days where someone just doesn't have it for whatever reason. I'm not hating on the guy, I'm more just pointing out that he has many of the same qualities Nurk did, but the same people that bashed Nurk for it are defending Ayton and that's the part I don't get in this forum on a regular.

Ayton played great last night, he was defending well and grabbing boards. He had a good overall game. I don't expect that from him every night either. I'm not disappointed in his play vs his pay.

Overall he is about what I expected out of him, but I did think he would show more offensive than we have been seeing from him, but that could be due to him being on a new team, dealing with some injuries this year and/or Billups not using him to max compacity yet.

I'm baffled at how many bashed Nurk as well for many of the same reasons as well. That Nurk wouldn't be good with this team.

Nurk has a more friendly contract, and if Ayton wants to continue being a max player, when his salary is up, Scoot/Ant/Sharpe will all be due too...meaning enjoy a couple of years of Ayton at this rate then he's gone since we aint giving all of them a max.

 

[riverman]

Nobody is a max player that doesn't make an All NBA team or Allstar roster. I do like swagger in the front court though. As long as he shows up and works well next to Grant and Walker it's all gravy to me. You can't fill a roster with rookie contracts anyway...somewhere you have to reach the minimum salary level. Ayton's money isn't hurting us nearly as much as CJ's or Dame's would've. He won't get what he's paid now next deal. They'll probably offer him Nurk money for more years or pay him Ant money for a two year deal with a team option.

 

[Samuel]

Nobody is a max player that doesn't make an All NBA team or Allstar roster. I do like swagger in the front court though. As long as he shows up and works well next to Grant and Walker it's all gravy to me. You can't fill a roster with rookie contracts anyway...somewhere you have to reach the minimum salary level. Ayton's money isn't hurting us nearly as much as CJ's or Dame's would've. He won't get what he's paid now next deal. They'll probably offer him Nurk money for more years or pay him Ant money for a two year deal with a team option.

agreed--I feel like the suns fanbase and other national media are trying to trick portland fans into caring that...

- ayton went #1
- ayton's contract is hurting the blazers' chances of success in the short, medium or long term given the rebuild.

... once you remove those two things from the equation, it's hard to get me fired up about the expectations game.

ayton's age makes him a lot better suited for the blazers than nurkic, given this new framework.

 

[wizenheimer]

Isn't this the very definition of moving goalposts?

Your original argument was that Ayton's low FT attempt percentage was a weakness, except that some of the very best players in the league on some of the best teams in the league are down there with him, so now you're qualifying that something else about Ayton in a similar vein is the problem.

actually, no, the best players are not really "down there with him". There's a pretty big gap between a 33% rate and a rate under 21%. Ayton's career rate is about 63% that of Jokic; 55% of Nurkic; and 37% of Embiid's. . And for this season, Ayton's rate is 41% of Jokic; 36% of Nurkic; and 24% of Embiid. Those aren't close to equivalent

I'm not sure why you're pushing back on this. Ayton is a really good rebounder; the numbers show that. He's decent for a big in shooting efficiency; the numbers show that too. But for a 7' C, he's quite poor at getting to the line and drawing fouls; again, that's what his numbers show...I didn't make them up

 

[sheed30]

agreed--I feel like the suns fanbase and other national media are trying to trick portland fans into caring that...

- ayton went #1
- ayton's contract is hurting the blazers' chances of success in the short, medium or long term given the rebuild.

... once you remove those two things from the equation, it's hard to get me fired up about the expectations game.

ayton's age makes him a lot better suited for the blazers than nurkic, given this new framework.

um, this is silly. Ayton is a #1 pick, why just dismiss that or ignore that to make you feel better about his play?

He was just quoted as saying he is a max player and will continue to be one, so either him or the Blazer will be facing some uncertain times coming up..

Both those things are facts. Why dismiss it?

Nurk was gotten for Plumlee and etc, on a better contract, how come many didn't forget those things when bashing Nurk for the same things they are defending Ayton for?

Make some sense around here guys. Guys are all over the place lol

 

[beast blazer]

yeah, I shouldn't have added eFG%. But when it comes to 2ptFG%:

Daniel Gafford .692
Jakob Poeltl .685
Moritz Wagner .675
Jarrett Allen .663
Ivica Zubac .655
Kristaps Porziņģis .649
Jalen Duren .641
Brook Lopez .640
Nic Claxton .638
Rudy Gobert .637
Nikola Jokić .635
Domantas Sabonis .629
Chet Holmgren .625
Myles Turner .622
Jonas Valančiūnas .616
Naz Reid .589
Zach Collins .583
Alperen Şengün .577
Anthony Davis .576
Joel Embiid .568
Clint Capela .567
Jusuf Nurkić .555
Nikola Vučević .541
Victor Wembanyama .540
Deandre Ayton .535

now, this is Ayton's worst season so that's probably fairly skewed. His career mark is .599 which would put him right behind Valunciunas

when it comes to gauging the impact FT's have on efficiency, then TS% is the go-to gauge. Ayton Career make of .617 compared to C's this season

Daniel Gafford .713
Jarrett Allen .688
Jakob Poeltl .675
Moritz Wagner .666
Ivica Zubac .665
Nikola Jokić .660
Kristaps Porziņģis .658
Rudy Gobert .652
Onyeka Okongwu .652
Joel Embiid .651
Jalen Duren .650
Domantas Sabonis .648
Nic Claxton .640
Chet Holmgren .639
Jonas Valančiūnas .639
Myles Turner .628
Dario Šarić .625
Anthony Davis .624
Naz Reid .620
Deandre Ayton .617 (career)

I wish bbref hadn't put a lot of searches behind a paywall. Used to be I could have sorted for career TS% for C's

Exactly. FTs have a huge impact on a players overall offensive efficiency. Ayton has not been efficient at 2s for a center, and downright pathetic at getting to the line. That leaves him with at TS% of .554 so far this year.

Given that the Blazers have the worst TS% in the league, you have to point out stuff like this as a contributing factor to our losing ways.

 

[beast blazer]

This is another problem with Ayton this year. The bottom line is this season. Note the steep decline in both percentage of shots taken at the rim and in percentage converted at the rim. He's drifting a way from the hoop and it it's hurting his efficiency.
One would think that if you reduced your attempts at the rim, what was left would be more of the "gimmies", but his % has gone down.

Ayton is bad offensively this season, and his bullshit hurts the team.. No other way to cut it. If he were averaging 13 points with good efficiency it would be one thing, but he's not. He's in his 6 year, and regressing. He's a bum, he's a loser, he needs to get the fuck off this team.

 

[PCmor7]

And, again, we keep having people cherry picking stats to make specious arguments.

"He's bad and getting worse" ... or, just hear me out on this, it's 28 games! The sample size is minuscule. He's played 28 games with 16 guys he's never played with, a half-dozen rookies, a new coach, a new system, a team that's trying not to win much ... and you're hyper-focused on one thing to try to prove your point that you completely ignore everything else.

 

[PCmor7]

actually, no, the best players are not really "down there with him". There's a pretty big gap between a 33% rate and a rate under 21%. Ayton's career rate is about 63% that of Jokic; 55% of Nurkic; and 37% of Embiid's. . And for this season, Ayton's rate is 41% of Jokic; 36% of Nurkic; and 24% of Embiid. Those aren't close to equivalent

I'm not sure why you're pushing back on this. Ayton is a really good rebounder; the numbers show that. He's decent for a big in shooting efficiency; the numbers show that too. But for a 7' C, he's quite poor at getting to the line and drawing fouls; again, that's what his numbers show...I didn't make them up

I'm pushing back on it because you're trying to hard to make a point using a statistical argument that's weak, and you're continually changing parameters to do it.

I'll try to explain this to you again.

Look at your chart.

Look at the rankings. Don't focus so much on the numbers but look at who ranks where.

If your stat was meaningful in a vacuum, we should expect more guys like Anthony Davis to be near the top of the rankings, not the bottom.

Your example has guys who are among the top 100 NBA players of all-time well behind journeymen.

You're telling us that Ayton not doing well in this area is proof that he's not really a good player when there are a number of guys that aren't good in this area that I don't think you could challenge are great players without someone looking at you like you had two heads.

It's not a defense of Ayton here. It's more an indictment of a poor argument that keeps shifting. In this case, you keep pushing this stat matters but your way of trying to push that the stat matters is that Ayton's not good at it. Looking at this list, again, there's a strong correlation with guys not being focal points of their offenses and ranking high, which shows a bias in the measurement.

It'd be like a baseball player hitting .667 and someone telling you that that proved they were a great hitter ... except they only were 2-for-3 and their only three at-bats were hitting for the pitcher when no one else was available to hit. And the other team had to play the infield in when they batted. They got limited use and got limited use in highly favorable situations.

 

[PCmor7]

It's not about going recklessly on every possession, it's more about coasting at times out there and not having that dog in him. And that's ok, he doesn't have to have that in him at all times. There is going be some days where someone just doesn't have it for whatever reason. I'm not hating on the guy, I'm more just pointing out that he has many of the same qualities Nurk did, but the same people that bashed Nurk for it are defending Ayton and that's the part I don't get in this forum on a regular.

Ayton played great last night, he was defending well and grabbing boards. He had a good overall game. I don't expect that from him every night either. I'm not disappointed in his play vs his pay.

Overall he is about what I expected out of him, but I did think he would show more offensive than we have been seeing from him, but that could be due to him being on a new team, dealing with some injuries this year and/or Billups not using him to max compacity yet.

I'm baffled at how many bashed Nurk as well for many of the same reasons as well. That Nurk wouldn't be good with this team.

Nurk has a more friendly contract, and if Ayton wants to continue being a max player, when his salary is up, Scoot/Ant/Sharpe will all be due too...meaning enjoy a couple of years of Ayton at this rate then he's gone since we aint giving all of them a max.

OK.

I don't know where a lot of this comes from.

It seems like a "Justice for Nurk" post.

The other thing is that you're still coming down on him, now for "coasting at times" which seems like you are muffling your previous criticism a bit, for something that you literally could say of 98-99% of the NBA. It just seems like a weird criticism to make that a guy deserves to be criticized because he doesn't have Draymond Green's motor or something along those lines.

However, if that's your contention, I'd counter with the fact that Nurk then is more deserving of your criticism, because he played with half the motor or less than Ayton, admittedly at a quarter the price, but Ayton does things Nurk couldn't and Ayton has the potential to do more.

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

 

[Samuel]

um, this is silly. Ayton is a #1 pick, why just dismiss that or ignore that to make you feel better about his play?

He was just quoted as saying he is a max player and will continue to be one, so either him or the Blazer will be facing some uncertain times coming up..

Both those things are facts. Why dismiss it?

Nurk was gotten for Plumlee and etc, on a better contract, how come many didn't forget those things when bashing Nurk for the same things they are defending Ayton for?

Make some sense around here guys. Guys are all over the place lol

Keep going with the logic, you’re almost there:

why does it matter that he’s a max player? Portland is going to be stacked with rookie scale contracts for the foreseeable future. Ayton’s max matters for phoenix, but not for us!

Ayton is replacing Nurkic. I like Nurkic. But he already didn’t fit the timeline of the team and struggled with his availability. Ayton is 25. Ayton’s inconsistency by the end of the season will likely just be different than Nurk’s—not worse. So why do we need to care that he’s a #1 pick again? Nurk certainly wasn’t—we got him AND a pick from Denver, he was found money. Phoenix had to select him over Luka and live with that after being awful for a season to select him. We didn’t.

The Ayton expectations game is a stupid one to play—I’m not sure why people feel the need to invest in it. You’re certainly welcome to.

 

[beast blazer]

And, again, we keep having people cherry picking stats to make specious arguments.

"He's bad and getting worse" ... or, just hear me out on this, it's 28 games! The sample size is minuscule. He's played 28 games with 16 guys he's never played with, a half-dozen rookies, a new coach, a new system, a team that's trying not to win much ... and you're hyper-focused on one thing to try to prove your point that you completely ignore everything else.

His drifting to the outside has been sustained over 3 years though. And yeah, maybe his interior percentage will come back up, but 28 games isn't really a small sample size, it's half a season for him.

All anyone can make statements of fact on, is what he's already done, not mythical improvement he might make in the future. I say this guy is trending the wrong way, he got paid, he's not really on the "upswing" part of development, and he's egregiously over-paid for what he brings. He's average at best.

 

[beast blazer]

Keep going with the logic, you’re almost there:

why does it matter that he’s a max player? Portland is going to be stacked with rookie scale contracts for the foreseeable future. Ayton’s max matters for phoenix, but not for us!

Ayton is replacing Nurkic. I like Nurkic. But he already didn’t fit the timeline of the team and struggled with his availability. Ayton is 25. Ayton’s inconsistency by the end of the season will likely just be different than Nurk’s—not worse. So why do we need to care that he’s a #1 pick again? Nurk certainly wasn’t—we got him AND a pick from Denver, he was found money. Phoenix had to select him over Luka and live with that after being awful for a season to select him. We didn’t.

The Ayton expectations game is a stupid one to play—I’m not sure why people feel the need to invest in it. You’re certainly welcome to.

He's not better than Nurkic and he's twice as expensive. That matters in terms of his tradability. Nurk wasn't efficient on offense either, had bad hands, but was a good rebounder and fair defender.

The Suns were smart, and saw they could get the same overall production for half the price.

 

[sheed30]

OK.

I don't know where a lot of this comes from.

It seems like a "Justice for Nurk" post.

The other thing is that you're still coming down on him, now for "coasting at times" which seems like you are muffling your previous criticism a bit, for something that you literally could say of 98-99% of the NBA. It just seems like a weird criticism to make that a guy deserves to be criticized because he doesn't have Draymond Green's motor or something along those lines.

However, if that's your contention, I'd counter with the fact that Nurk then is more deserving of your criticism, because he played with half the motor or less than Ayton, admittedly at a quarter the price, but Ayton does things Nurk couldn't and Ayton has the potential to do more.

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

Lol. And there it is. You just contradicted yourself in your post lol.

99% of players coast at times? So then why in the same argument say Nurk is deserving of it criticism more lol? You just prove my point.

If you’re going to criticize Nurk for those things then criticize Ayton when he does those things too! It’s pretty simple.

You guys really aren’t making sense at all here when it comes to the criticism.

Guys will bash Nurk for those things but turn an eye when Ayton does that. Hey 99% of players coast at times and it’s ok if Ayton does that but not ok when Nurk did it lol.

just goes to show you how hypocritical people are on here when it comes to certain players and this just confirms it with your words and others.

 

[sheed30]

He's not better than Nurkic and he's twice as expensive. That matters in terms of his tradability. Nurk wasn't efficient on offense either, had bad hands, but was a good rebounder and fair defender.

The Suns were smart, and saw they could get the same overall production for half the price.

He averaging almost the same stats as Clint Capela lol. But I agree stats done tell the whole story as Ayton has more skills than Clint.

new team, new scheme, new coach all reason Ayton hasn’t been as good as advertised but still lots of time to judge Ayton. Just call a spade a spade is my main issue here when it comes to criticism

 

[Samuel]

He's not better than Nurkic and he's twice as expensive. That matters in terms of his tradability. Nurk wasn't efficient on offense either, had bad hands, but was a good rebounder and fair defender.

The Suns were smart, and saw they could get the same overall production for half the price.

can you explain why ayton needs to be traded, and why his contract matters at all?

nurkic wasn't going to fit even medium term with this group...

 

[wizenheimer]

I'm pushing back on it because you're trying to hard to make a point using a statistical argument that's weak, and you're continually changing parameters to do it.

I'll try to explain this to you again.

Look at your chart.

Look at the rankings. Don't focus so much on the numbers but look at who ranks where.

If your stat was meaningful in a vacuum, we should expect more guys like Anthony Davis to be near the top of the rankings, not the bottom.

Your example has guys who are among the top 100 NBA players of all-time well behind journeymen.

You're telling us that Ayton not doing well in this area is proof that he's not really a good player when there are a number of guys that aren't good in this area that I don't think you could challenge are great players without someone looking at you like you had two heads.

It's not a defense of Ayton here. It's more an indictment of a poor argument that keeps shifting. In this case, you keep pushing this stat matters but your way of trying to push that the stat matters is that Ayton's not good at it. Looking at this list, again, there's a strong correlation with guys not being focal points of their offenses and ranking high, which shows a bias in the measurement.

It'd be like a baseball player hitting .667 and someone telling you that that proved they were a great hitter ... except they only were 2-for-3 and their only three at-bats were hitting for the pitcher when no one else was available to hit. And the other team had to play the infield in when they batted. They got limited use and got limited use in highly favorable situations.

I'm not sure but you might be conflating me saying that Ayton sucks at drawing fouls and getting to the line as me saying that Ayton just sucks overall. I haven't said that by the way. I think he's rather average as a C, and certainly overpaid. He has some strengths and he has some weaknesses; drawing shooting fouls is one of them. I probably believe that's a more important component of an NBA player's game than you do

it didn't have to be FT rate. I could have used FT's/36 or FT's/100-possessions. I'll go to bbref and sort for FT's made per 36. That way Ayton will get a positive bump because of his 78% conversion rate and we can see where he stands:

Joel Embiid 11.3
Luka Garza 7.8
Bam Adebayo 5.8
Kristaps Porziņģis 5.8
Anthony Davis 5.7
Jaren Jackson Jr. 5.7
Nikola Jokić 5.0
Victor Wembanyama 4.9
Myles Turner 4.6
Moritz Wagner 4.2
Marvin Bagley III 3.9
Mason Plumlee 3.7
Rudy Gobert 3.5
Domantas Sabonis 3.5
Isaiah Jackson 3.4
Andre Drummond 3.3
JaVale McGee 3.3
Day'Ron Sharpe 3.3
Jonas Valančiūnas 3.3
Mark Williams 3.3
Chimezie Metu 3.2
Dwight Powell 3.2
Harry Giles 3.2
Jarrett Allen 3.1
Chet Holmgren 3.1
Jusuf Nurkić 3.1
Zach Collins 2.7
Nick Richards 2.7
Jalen Smith 2.7
Cody Zeller 2.7
Clint Capela 2.6
Daniel Gafford 2.6
Wendell Carter Jr. 2.6
DeAndre Jordan 2.6
Drew Eubanks 2.5
Kelly Olynyk 2.5
Thomas Bryant 2.5
Sandro Mamukelashvili 2.5
Onyeka Okongwu 2.4
Ivica Zubac 2.4
Neemias Queta 2.4
Mo Bamba 2.3
Duop Reath 2.2
Robin Lopez 2.2
Orlando Robinson 2.2
Goga Bitadze 2.1
Isaiah Hartenstein 1.9
Luke Kornet 1.9
Jalen Duren 1.9
Naz Reid 1.8
Richaun Holmes 1.8
James Wiseman 1.8
Brook Lopez 1.7
Maxi Kleber 1.7
Jock Landale 1.7
Larry Nance Jr. 1.7
Jaxson Hayes 1.6
Kevon Looney 1.6
Jakob Poeltl 1.6
Mike Muscala 1.5
Paul Reed 1.4
Nikola Vučević 1.3
Deandre Ayton 1.3
Nathan Mensah 1.3
Walker Kessler 1.2
Bismack Biyombo 1.1
Mitchell Robinson 0.8
Ibou Badji 0.7

I don't see many notable C's keeping company with Ayton in the cellar. Kessler and Robinson are notable, but those guys are rim-protectors that almost never shoot. Brook Lopez takes half of his shots from three and those will rarely draw fouls

I posted that initial FT Rate list as part of a discussion on Ayton, FT's, Przbilla, etc. I didn't just drag up the numbers on spec nor did I initiate the discussion; just participated

Ayton would probably look better in a per36 rebound ranking. I could do that if you want

 

[BBert]

Ayton sucks at drawing fouls and getting to the line because he can't hold onto the ball in traffic, and every team knows it, so he rarely gets a chance to take it to the rim. Does Ayton have tiny Trump hands or what?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

We got younger by getting Ayton. He has more talent/potential. May not work out long-term with the team and timeline, but I see a million reasons why we found him a valuable asset.

 

[Pinwheel1]

We got younger by getting Ayton. He has more talent/potential. May not work out long-term with the team and timeline, but I see a million reasons why we found him a valuable asset.

Yeah, his timeline should be fine. He hasn't even entered his prime yet at just 25. He has another solid 8 years.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Yeah, his timeline should be fine. He hasn't even entered his prime yet at just 25. He has another solid 8 years.

give me Saboner 2.0

 

[PCmor7]

I'm not sure but you might be conflating me saying that Ayton sucks at drawing fouls and getting to the line as me saying that Ayton just sucks overall. I haven't said that by the way. I think he's rather average as a C, and certainly overpaid. He has some strengths and he has some weaknesses; drawing shooting fouls is one of them. I probably believe that's a more important component of an NBA player's game than you do

it didn't have to be FT rate. I could have used FT's/36 or FT's/100-possessions. I'll go to bbref and sort for FT's made per 36. That way Ayton will get a positive bump because of his 78% conversion rate and we can see where he stands:

Joel Embiid 11.3
Luka Garza 7.8
Bam Adebayo 5.8
Kristaps Porziņģis 5.8
Anthony Davis 5.7
Jaren Jackson Jr. 5.7
Nikola Jokić 5.0
Victor Wembanyama 4.9
Myles Turner 4.6
Moritz Wagner 4.2
Marvin Bagley III 3.9
Mason Plumlee 3.7
Rudy Gobert 3.5
Domantas Sabonis 3.5
Isaiah Jackson 3.4
Andre Drummond 3.3
JaVale McGee 3.3
Day'Ron Sharpe 3.3
Jonas Valančiūnas 3.3
Mark Williams 3.3
Chimezie Metu 3.2
Dwight Powell 3.2
Harry Giles 3.2
Jarrett Allen 3.1
Chet Holmgren 3.1
Jusuf Nurkić 3.1
Zach Collins 2.7
Nick Richards 2.7
Jalen Smith 2.7
Cody Zeller 2.7
Clint Capela 2.6
Daniel Gafford 2.6
Wendell Carter Jr. 2.6
DeAndre Jordan 2.6
Drew Eubanks 2.5
Kelly Olynyk 2.5
Thomas Bryant 2.5
Sandro Mamukelashvili 2.5
Onyeka Okongwu 2.4
Ivica Zubac 2.4
Neemias Queta 2.4
Mo Bamba 2.3
Duop Reath 2.2
Robin Lopez 2.2
Orlando Robinson 2.2
Goga Bitadze 2.1
Isaiah Hartenstein 1.9
Luke Kornet 1.9
Jalen Duren 1.9
Naz Reid 1.8
Richaun Holmes 1.8
James Wiseman 1.8
Brook Lopez 1.7
Maxi Kleber 1.7
Jock Landale 1.7
Larry Nance Jr. 1.7
Jaxson Hayes 1.6
Kevon Looney 1.6
Jakob Poeltl 1.6
Mike Muscala 1.5
Paul Reed 1.4
Nikola Vučević 1.3
Deandre Ayton 1.3
Nathan Mensah 1.3
Walker Kessler 1.2
Bismack Biyombo 1.1
Mitchell Robinson 0.8
Ibou Badji 0.7

I don't see many notable C's keeping company with Ayton in the cellar. Kessler and Robinson are notable, but those guys are rim-protectors that almost never shoot. Brook Lopez takes half of his shots from three and those will rarely draw fouls

I posted that initial FT Rate list as part of a discussion on Ayton, FT's, Przbilla, etc. I didn't just drag up the numbers on spec nor did I initiate the discussion; just participated

Ayton would probably look better in a per36 rebound ranking. I could do that if you want

If it could have been this latest attempted stat post before, why wasn't it?

Some might say because you had an agenda and were posting the other stuff because you couldn't detect the flaw until someone with more objectivity pointed it out.

I don't think anyone would think I'm conflating anything when you continue to move your goalposts with every post you make. Why would one continue to try to find different ways to say "I didn't say Ayton wasn't bad but I'm just going to give you random stats that show that Ayton's bad and say that I think the things Ayton is bad at are things that I subjectively think are valuable?" In other words, you don't have to say it. Your actions say it.

This isn't about what I think about the value of drawing fouls compared to what you think. You made the statement that you think it's important in response to posts saying that's admittedly an Ayton shortcoming but not the be-all, end-all in measuring his value. Then you posted several stats trying to show everyone that Ayton was substandard in that area ...

EXCEPT your metrics showed other top centers also were below the mean in that area.

This is at least your third and maybe your fourth attempt to try to correct your own faulty correlation without just swallowing your pride and coming right out and saying so directly.

Now, again, if you are saying I'm the one that's conflating and you aren't criticizing Ayton on the whole, I'm just wondering why you keep making so many attempts to prove a specious point about his play. In everyday parlance, I think this would be called "passive aggression."

Now, back to your actual stats here ... this is the closest you've gotten in terms of actually proving a correlation between drawing fouls and quality of play. Most of the best Cs at least are near the top here. It's just amazing that a guy who says he wasn't trying to make the point that I think most people could see he was trying to make to nearly a half-dozen tries and several attempts "to not say something" to finally get close to saying it.

 

[Natebishop3]

Since the "I have nothing to prove comment"

 

[PCmor7]

I'm just here for the "he doesn't work for the rebounds, they just fall into his hands" a la LaMarcus Aldridge comments.