Ayton

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SharpesTriumph said:
Not sure what the next draft has to do with Ayton. I don't think Ayton is going to lead teenagers to the playoffs or anything. We will lose plenty next season even with Ayton.

I'd imagine the idea with Ayton here is to have the center position not be a complete disaster which is bad for Scoot/Sharpe development. Then in a few years hopefully we've added some pieces to make a run at winning while Ayton is still in his prime.
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But theres no point in trading for a max contract center unless he makes a big impact. So either he's not worth the trade or we're better and our pick is likely noticeably worse. Just not a fan of that. I'm okay with keeping Nurkic short-term though.
 
For the next iteration of the Blazers, I dont want guys with questionable mentalities. I want competitive dudes that bring it consistently and have a chip on their shoulder. That you dont have to hope another player will "make them right" or that "this situation will be good for them". I want guys that create a good situation and are consistent, not a product of external factors. I'm embracing being bad in order to add players more in that vain through the draft, who have more upside than Ayton does at this point. Coupled with the wild cards that'd be future unprotected picks in a Dame trade, and that seems like the ideal path at this point.
 
BonesJones said:
For the next iteration of the Blazers, I dont want guys with questionable mentalities. I want competitive dudes that bring it consistently and have a chip on their shoulder. That you dont have to hope another player will "make them right" or that "this situation will be good for them". I want guys that create a good situation and are consistent, not a product of external factors. I'm embracing being bad in order to add players more in that vain through the draft, who have more upside than Ayton does at this point. Coupled with the wild cards that'd be future unprotected picks in a Dame trade, and that seems like the ideal path at this point.
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Is there anyone that would be available for Herro that anyone can be excited about?

I personally think Ayton has a chance to turn it around. And even if he didn’t his contract will be expiring or already expired, so it’s not really a salary issue. Does Ayton improving massively guarantee we win more games? I still think there’s a high chance we’re around the top 5 even with Ayton.

I’m just hurt that Mitchell got Lauri, Sexton, and Ogbaji and we’re going to be stuck with a dude that barely played and a dude who has yet to play a game.
 
BonesJones said:
But theres no point in trading for a max contract center unless he makes a big impact. So either he's not worth the trade or we're better and our pick is likely noticeably worse. Just not a fan of that. I'm okay with keeping Nurkic short-term though.
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Is Ayton really on a max? Just doesn't seem that big or that significant. He makes ~$70 million over the following two seasons. LaMelo Ball has $250 million and Jaylen Brown over $300 million.

Ayton last season is $24 million less than Lillard.
 
BankTeller said:
Is there anyone that would be available for Herro that anyone can be excited about?

I personally think Ayton has a chance to turn it around. And even if he didn’t his contract will be expiring or already expired, so it’s not really a salary issue. Does Ayton improving massively guarantee we win more games? I still think there’s a high chance we’re around the top 5 even with Ayton.

I’m just hurt that Mitchell got Lauri, Sexton, and Ogbaji and we’re going to be stuck with a dude that barely played and a dude who has yet to play a game.
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Did you mean top 5 lottery with improved Ayton on thr blazers? If that happens, it would be very disappointing

17-18 celtics starters:

Kyrie, 25 y/o
Tatum, rookie
Brown, sophomore
Horford, 31 y/o
Aron Bynes (Hayward seasond ending injury 1st game)

They were one game away from going to the NBA Finals

Scoot
Sharpe
Nas/Tisse
Jerami
Ayton

If that team goes top 5 lottery, Scoot and Sharpe are disappointments.

Don't we have high hopes for these two, like All Rookie and baby Kobe?
 
inconceivable said:
If that team goes top 5 lottery, Scoot and Sharpe are disappointments.

Don't we have high hopes for these two, like All Rookie and baby Kobe?
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Sure, we have high hopes for Shae and Scoot, that doesn’t mean we should be stupid with our expectations.

You seriously aren’t comparing those two starting lineups, are you? One team had a guy who was the second best player on a championship team and a guy who was big contributor in maybe deep playoff runs. Tatum was a wing who could score as soon as he got drafted. Baynes was a role player that fit.

I’d love to see Sharpe take as big of a leap as Jaylen did. We don’t know if Ayton will buy in. One team also made the playoffs the prior year, the other was bad enough to draft Scoot.
 
BonesJones said:
For the next iteration of the Blazers, I dont want guys with questionable mentalities. I want competitive dudes that bring it consistently and have a chip on their shoulder. That you dont have to hope another player will "make them right" or that "this situation will be good for them". I want guys that create a good situation and are consistent, not a product of external factors. I'm embracing being bad in order to add players more in that vain through the draft, who have more upside than Ayton does at this point. Coupled with the wild cards that'd be future unprotected picks in a Dame trade, and that seems like the ideal path at this point.
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My grandpa used to say, wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which one fills up first.
 
I can promise you guys, if we get Ayton, I give it a 2 years max before lots of people here start to complain about him. People talking about Nurk's defense, will feel the same way about Ayton. Ayton also lacks passion many times, as many complain about with Nurk.

He lacks the ability to get pushed by a coach, there is many rumors of him not improving in the offseason and his love to stay up late and play video games. He complained he wasnt being used right by Monty.

In short, its weird to see people bash Nurk but want Ayton when they both has similar traits that soured people on Nurk in the first place.
 
sheed30 said:
I can promise you guys, if we get Ayton, I give it a 2 years max before lots of people here start to complain about him. People talking about Nurk's defense, will feel the same way about Ayton. Ayton also lacks passion many times, as many complain about with Nurk.

He lacks the ability to get pushed by a coach, there is many rumors of him not improving in the offseason and his love to stay up late and play video games. He complained he wasnt being used right by Monty.

In short, its weird to see people bash Nurk but want Ayton when they both has similar traits that soured people on Nurk in the first place.
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There are some attitude parallels, for sure. When it comes to offensive impact though, its a clear upgrade

TS%:
Nurkic - .546 (career) .589 (last year)
Ayton - .622 (career) .617 (last year)

FG% 0'-3' from the basket
Nurkic - .645
Ayton - .806 (!)

FG% 3'-6' from the basket
Nurkic - .447
Ayton - .532
 
sheed30 said:
I can promise you guys, if we get Ayton, I give it a 2 years max before lots of people here start to complain about him. People talking about Nurk's defense, will feel the same way about Ayton. Ayton also lacks passion many times, as many complain about with Nurk.

He lacks the ability to get pushed by a coach, there is many rumors of him not improving in the offseason and his love to stay up late and play video games. He complained he wasnt being used right by Monty.

In short, its weird to see people bash Nurk but want Ayton when they both has similar traits that soured people on Nurk in the first place.
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I don't think Ayton is an ideal target, I'd probably prefer Jarrett Allen or Claxton or a number of other centers instead. But doesn't sound like any of them are available for a similar price. If we're only giving up Nurk and spare parts while having salary space to absorb Ayton's deal with Dame's supermax gone I'm totally fine with it. Yeah I suspect I'll have frustrations with Ayton. He's 5 years younger than Nurk with some upside and more physical tools. His contract isn't really that bad anymore compared to the supermax or rookie extensions being handed out.

Hell you've had posters here bitching about Dame's defense and ball hogging offense the last 10 years. Most players have a blend of positives and negatives; its the GM job to get the right balance of those players and the coaches job to design schemes. A center without Ayton shortcomings is either making even more money or would cost even more assets in a trade.

I think fans will bitch about every Blazer here eventually. Rookie's like Scoot and Sharpe get 2-3 years of a honeymoon then they will get shit thrown at them too, just look at Ant.
 
Samuel said:
The scenario where Portland acquires ayton and hangs onto Dame into the season is fascinating to me.
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It's just too bad that something like this wasn't able to be done months ago. I have to believe that would have prevented the Dame trade request, and I feel like the fan base would have been much more excited about the season to come.

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PtldPlatypus said:
It's just too bad that something like this wasn't able to be done months ago. I have to believe that would have prevented the Dame trade request, and I feel like the fan base would have been much more excited about the season to come.

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I don't think the Raptors ever would have considered Ant for OG.

OG is not worth #3 from the Blazers side. Some rumors were the Raptors may have even wanted Sharpe as well!

I'm relieved the Blazers didn't do one of those moves as it'll be more likely we contend eventually with the Dame assets and rebuilding than continuing to run back mediocrity teams with Dame. We just didn't have the asset to build a contender with Dame, lets not make the same mistake for the next decade with Scoot/Sharpe.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
I don't think the Raptors ever would have considered Ant for OG.

OG is not worth #3 from the Blazers side. Some rumors were the Raptors may have even wanted Sharpe as well!
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Understood that Ujiri's overvaluing of his assets is why it never happened. Still, it would have been reasonable for all sides, and would have made this offseason much less turbulent
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Understood that Ujiri's overvaluing of his assets is why it never happened. Still, it would have been reasonable for all sides, and would have made this offseason much less turbulent
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Ant for OG just isn't realistic. Might as well say it would've been better to add Embiid or Giannis this summer.

It's also not just an Ujiri dynamic, there were 28 other teams to bargain with. Blazers didn't have the assets to build a contender around Dame, period.

The actual assets that would have been needed (Scoot, Sharpe, multiple future 1sts, etc) just isn't worth the cost to build a non contender with Dame. Yes we might have some discomfort now especially for hardcore Dame fans, but long term its a far better direction. In that sense I'm very grateful we have the offseason we've had.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Ant for OG just isn't realistic. Might as well say it would've been better to add Embiid or Giannis this summer.
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From a value point, you are right. From Toronto's cap space given the new CBA - they are going to be in a problem with OG, Pascal and Barnes all on the roster requiring big deals. There is a reason they let FVV go and replaced him with a cheaper Schroder.

If they care about Ant at all I am not sure (they do need shooting), but one of Barnes, OG and Pascal will be moved sooner or later. The tax man cometh.
 
andalusian said:
From a value point, you are right. From Toronto's cap space given the new CBA - they are going to be in a problem with OG, Pascal and Barnes all on the roster requiring big deals. There is a reason they let FVV go and replaced him with a cheaper Schroder.

If they care about Ant at all I am not sure (they do need shooting), but one of Barnes, OG and Pascal will be moved sooner or later. The tax man cometh.
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Houston way overpaid for FVV - Masai wasn't matching that deal regardless of how little or big the Raptors payroll is.

Barnes max will be far cheaper than the others, see Ayton $33 million vs Dame $60 million. So no I don't believe its a certainty the Raptors have to move one of these or make cost cutting moves soon. Barnes extension wouldn't kick in until 3 years form now, and the tax for that roster at the end of such season, quite an eternity in the NBA landscape. Plus the cap is going up these years.

Regardless none of those dynamics would help the Blazers acquire OG at a discount, that's never been how Masai operates. Blazers would have had to gut their future to bring in an OG level player and they would still have been a non contender with Dame. The current direction is much better.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Regardless none of those dynamics would help the Blazers acquire OG at a discount, that's never been how Masai operates. Blazers would have had to gut their future to bring in an OG level player and they would still have been a non contender with Dame. The current direction is much better.
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All I am saying is that how Masai operated under the old CBA and how he will operate under the new one might have to change - because the ownership will not be willing to pay so much for a non-championship team.

So, there is a reason to believe that the Raptors will have to choose 2 of the 3 forwards they have in order to balance to roster / reduce costs. If Ant (or Herro or someone else like him) is the direction they choose to go for or not, I do not know. But, the rules of the game changed for the Raptors as they had for the rest of the league. We already see that with other teams and the cap situation will catch with the Raptors soon as well. It's an important issue to remember.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Ant for OG just isn't realistic. Might as well say it would've been better to add Embiid or Giannis this summer.

It's also not just an Ujiri dynamic, there were 28 other teams to bargain with. Blazers didn't have the assets to build a contender around Dame, period.

The actual assets that would have been needed (Scoot, Sharpe, multiple future 1sts, etc) just isn't worth the cost to build a non contender with Dame. Yes we might have some discomfort now especially for hardcore Dame fans, but long term its a far better direction. In that sense I'm very grateful we have the offseason we've had.
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I just mentioned OG as the most obvious starting-level SF target. I'm sure other players could fit the bill. Point is, if Nurk/Nas/Ant could have returned something on the level of Ayton/(SF starter), and we could have gone into July with an expected roster of Dame/Thybulle/(Starting SF)/Grant/Ayton backed by Scoot/Sharpe/Murray/(MLE signing), there would have been a lot more optimism across the fan base about this upcoming season.

It didn't happen, so we are where we are. C'est la vie.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I just mentioned OG as the most obvious starting-level SF target. I'm sure other players could fit the bill. Point is, if Nurk/Nas/Ant could have returned something on the level of Ayton/(SF starter), and we could have gone into July with an expected roster of Dame/Thybulle/(Starting SF)/Grant/Ayton backed by Scoot/Sharpe/Murray/(MLE signing), there would have been a lot more optimism across the fan base about this upcoming season.

It didn't happen, so we are where we are. C'est la vie.
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Something along those lines is what I was hoping for. I suspect Joe was trying for that kind of a makeover, but didn’t find any deals that other GMs were willing to do.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I just mentioned OG as the most obvious starting-level SF target. I'm sure other players could fit the bill. Point is, if Nurk/Nas/Ant could have returned something on the level of Ayton/(SF starter), and we could have gone into July with an expected roster of Dame/Thybulle/(Starting SF)/Grant/Ayton backed by Scoot/Sharpe/Murray/(MLE signing), there would have been a lot more optimism across the fan base about this upcoming season.

It didn't happen, so we are where we are. C'est la vie.
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That's where we disagree; Nurk/NAS/Ant couldn't and still can't return Ayton and a SF starter.
 
I still think OG would be a fine compliment to Scoot/Sharpe/Grant.

He's not that old. If we could somehow swing a trade that sends out Dame/Nurk/filler and get OG/Ayton, that's legit a team that could make some noise.

Scoot
Sharpe
OG
Grant
Ayton

That's a better team than anything we've had in YEARS in terms of balance and length. It would suck that Dame wouldn't get to experience it, but that team is pretty young. There would be time to gel. Who even cares if you have to pay OG. We have Scoot/Sharpe on rookie deals for another 3-4 years.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Barnes max will be far cheaper than the others, see Ayton $33 million vs Dame $60 million. .
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not theoretically. He'll get his new contract in 2025. If the cap is at 160M by then, Barnes on a standard max 5-year rookie extension would make 46-47M/year. His max 1st year salary would be 40M. That's a 5-year/232M contract (by the way, a 5 year veteran super-max deal signed with a cap at 160M would be 65M/year....geeeeezuzzzz)

now, unless he massively improves over the next 2 years, he won't get a max deal. And it's possible the cap won't hit 160M, but if it just continues escalating at the rate of the last couple of seasons it will hit that mark.

personally, I think Barnes has become overrated around here. He's a fine young player with a solid skill-set but he's lacking the most important skill: shooting efficiency. He's a bad shooter. Still he's likely to get at least 80% of a max deal, maybe more

the overall point being it's really hard to see Toronto being able to afford all three of Siakam, OG, & Barnes.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
It's just too bad that something like this wasn't able to be done months ago. I have to believe that would have prevented the Dame trade request, and I feel like the fan base would have been much more excited about the season to come.

View attachment 57476
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I think keon+nas+nurkic works. could throw in a couple of gp2nds.

Zombie Rotation until a trade:

Dame / Scoot / Mays

Ant / Tisse /

Sharpe / Murray / Rupert

Grant / Walker / Knox

Ayton / Reath / Brown
 
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