OT Black Man In Minnesota Dies After Cop Kneels On His Neck/ Portland Riots

[Orion Bailey]

Something tells me this isn't going to end well....


Yes, ABM, There is systemic racism.

 

[e_blazer]

Meanwhile, we'll just keep acting like there's not a problem with racism in this country. That's real progress.

Of course there's a huge problem with racism in this country. Some of it is hard-baked into the "system" due to economic disadvantage that goes all the way back to the end of slavery when a group of people who were thought of by many as objects that could be bought and sold, suddenly were emancipated and left to fend for themselves without any job skills other than what they'd learned on the plantations. Some of it is also the so called, and way too numerous, "bad apple" cops who are racist and use their power in inappropriate and illegal ways simply because they can get away with it.

With that said, it seems to me that the spotlight is turned almost entirely on the racism part of the police problem right now. Undoubtedly, that's understandable and appropriate given recent events, but I think it's also undeniable that the problems are much larger than that. Gangs, drugs, poverty, prostitution...they all feed into an endless cycle of all-too-often violent interactions within the community and with the police that lead to inflated rates of arrest and incarceration. The calls to defund the police, without programs to address some of these other root problems, also seem to me like a case of head in the sand.

 

[Minstrel]

Conservatives are so proud of themselves when they find a random black person willing to repeat racist or problematic conservative talking points or women willing to repeat sexist conservative talking points.

Ann Coulter once said that it would be better if women never got the right to vote. Very eye-opening, just another perspective!

 

[crandc]

Meanwhile, we'll just keep on occupying areas and tearing down communities and monuments, etc., in the name of systemic racism. There's real progress.

We? You sure aren't participating in any Black Lives Matter protests, are you? And your god emperor is ready to throw people in prison for tearing down monuments to racist traitors. His very fine people.

 

[ABM]

Maybe if this country had a leader (interesting thought) who stood up and said, “Hey, we agree with you. There IS A racial injustice problem in America. And we intend to deal with it and these are legal and moral steps we’re going to take to end it once and for all. (An actual, viable plan in other words). And then ask the “resistance” to dial down their militance and work with the administration to get the ball rolling in the right direction. Working for real solutions in other words. That is what a real leader does. Instead we have a child who stamps his feet, makes threats and continues business as usual. And then you wonder why the protests continue. It wouldn’t surprise me if the protests continue until the election and far beyond based on the inaction/disinterest of a conservative (read “racist”) administration and it’s followers.

Yes, but didn't Obama relate those similar sentiments during his two terms in office? I'm not certain, but it seemed to me things were worse at the end of his terms.

 

[Minstrel]

but I think it's also undeniable that the problems are much larger than that. Gangs, drugs, poverty, prostitution...they all feed into an endless cycle of all-too-often violent interactions within the community and with the police that lead to inflated rates of arrest and incarceration.

I think it's extremely arguable, your position that racism is the smaller problem and "gangs, drugs, poverty and prostitution" is the larger problem. I think the historical racism in this nation, that continues today in generally different forms has been the much larger problem and has led to far more of all of those things.

Moreover, I think the more important point is that it's impossible to quantify which the "biggest issue" is, but (while I doubt you intended it as such), white people for generations have ignored addressing racism by saying, "Let's generalize this and address 'bigger' problems that affect everyone in a color-blind way." It's the policy equivalent of "all lives matter." While that's true, black people face unique hurdles in this society and racism is a specific problem that requires more than "let's just attack poverty in general." I totally support anti-poverty initiatives, but that's an entirely separate issue. Addressing systemic racism has to be done as its own, and very high priority, initiative and not drowned out by "But what about poverty? What about drugs?"

 

[ABM]

We?

I think you know what I meant. Look around.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Yes, but didn't Obama relate those similar sentiments during his two terms in office? I'm not certain, but it seemed to me things were worse at the end of his terms.

What part of Obama had to deal with a largely white Republican Congress for six out of his eight years don’t you understand???? He was vilified and stymied at every turn. Sound familiar?? At least your guy has his white, racist lap dogs to help him push through an agenda that will hold back the tide of diversity for the foreseeable future. Are you really and truly as obtuse as you make yourself out to be?

 

[e_blazer]

I think it's extremely arguable, your position that racism is the smaller problem and "gangs, drugs, poverty and prostitution" is the larger problem. I think the historical racism in this nation, that continues today in generally different forms has been the much larger problem and has led to far more of all of those things.

Moreover, I think the more important point is that it's impossible to quantify which the "biggest issue" is, but (while I doubt you intended it as such), white people for generations have ignored addressing racism by saying, "Let's generalize this and address 'bigger' problems that affect everyone in a color-blind way." It's the policy equivalent of "all lives matter." While that's true, black people face unique hurdles in this society and racism is a specific problem that requires more than "let's just attack poverty in general." I totally support anti-poverty initiatives, but that's an entirely separate issue. Addressing systemic racism has to be done as its own, and very high priority, initiative and not drowned out by "But what about poverty? What about drugs?"

I think it's extremely arguable that I said that racism was the smaller problem, because I didn't. I'm simply pointing out the obvious facts that there are other fish to fry as well.

I have absolutely no problem with doing everything possible to root out racists and racism wherever they may exist within our police and other government systems. I think attacking that problem right now because of heightened public awareness makes perfect sense. But thinking that, even if you could get rid of racism entirely (which we all know you can't), there's going to be peace in the poorer quarters of our cities without addressing poverty, drugs, gangs, etc. is ridiculous.

 

[MARIS61]

I mean for gods sake, the argument that 'more white people' are shot by police than black people is the biggest red herring ever. Yes, it is technically correct that more white people are shot by the police, but it's skewing the facts.

In 2020, about 172 white people have been shot by the police, and 88 black people have been shot by the police. So obviously that means racism is dead, because you know, more white people are shot than black people.

But using that argument fails to take into account the FACT that there are about 5x more white people, than there are black people.

So the #'s should be something like 88 black people and 440 white people being shot. But that's not the case. And it's *never* been the case.

Fake figures.
Members of one group commit violent crimes at a rate 6 times the number of the other group, yet you leave this out because facts don't support your propaganda.

2900 people in one group were murdered in 2018.

2600 of them were murdered by members of that same group.

300 of them were murdered by members of other groups.

Thousands of people from all groups were saved by police from murder by people from all groups.

 

[ABM]

I think it's extremely arguable, your position that racism is the smaller problem and "gangs, drugs, poverty and prostitution" is the larger problem. I think the historical racism in this nation, that continues today in generally different forms has been the much larger problem and has led to far more of all of those things.

Moreover, I think the more important point is that it's impossible to quantify which the "biggest issue" is, but (while I doubt you intended it as such), white people for generations have ignored addressing racism by saying, "Let's generalize this and address 'bigger' problems that affect everyone in a color-blind way." It's the policy equivalent of "all lives matter." While that's true, black people face unique hurdles in this society and racism is a specific problem that requires more than "let's just attack poverty in general." I totally support anti-poverty initiatives, but that's an entirely separate issue. Addressing systemic racism has to be done as its own, and very high priority, initiative and not drowned out by "But what about poverty? What about drugs?"

I appreciate your responses. That said, what's to prevent ANY Black person from having the mindset that they are going to make things better for themselves than their parents (or whomever) had it? Conversely, if they're being pushed down by the so-called "man"...and unable to better themselves? That's the question that needs to be addressed. What are those situations? Where are they existing? Who are the players that can effect change? Real change. Model communities might emerge. What then? To me, this is a grass-roots thing. Not a global mandate.

 

[julius]

Conservatives are so proud of themselves when they find a random black person willing to repeat racist or problematic conservative talking points or women willing to repeat sexist conservative talking points.

Ann Coulter once said that it would be better if women never got the right to vote. Very eye-opening, just another perspective!

In her defense, books don't sell themselves.

 

[julius]

I appreciate your responses. That said, what's to prevent ANY Black person from having the mindset that they are going to make things better for themselves than their parents (or whomever) had it?

That has nothing to do with whether or not things are harder for black people than pretty much any other race in the country.

Conversely, if they're being pushed down by the so-called "man"...and unable to better themselves? That's the question that needs to be addressed. What are those situations? Where are they existing? Who are the players that can effect change? Real change. Model communities might emerge. What then? To me, this is a grass-roots thing. Not a global mandate.

Yeah, if you left it to the south schools would still be 100% segregated and we'd have white drinking fountains and black drinking fountains.

So much progress you made, only to make this thread and piss all over it.

 

[ABM]

I found this interesting:

https://www.amnesty.org.au/tell-someone-love-theyre-racist/

 

[ABM]

So much progress you made, only to make this thread and piss all over it.

Thanks for being the arbiter.

 

[RR7]

I found this interesting:

https://www.amnesty.org.au/tell-someone-love-theyre-racist/

Where you posting it for us? How to talk to ABM when...

 

[julius]

Thanks for being the arbiter.

Thanks for continually hoisting yourself on your own petard.

 

[ABM]

Thanks for continually hoisting yourself on your own petard.

Sure, yeah, Mr. Global Moderator. Yrrrrright.

Take some lessons from Minstrel. He'd be a great mentor for you.

 

[Minstrel]

I think it's extremely arguable that I said that racism was the smaller problem, because I didn't. I'm simply pointing out the obvious facts that there are other fish to fry as well.

I was going by "but I think it's also undeniable that the problems are much larger than that."

But thinking that, even if you could get rid of racism entirely (which we all know you can't), there's going to be peace in the poorer quarters of our cities without addressing poverty, drugs, gangs, etc. is ridiculous.

I don't think anyone has suggested that, though.

 

[Road Ratt]

 

[Minstrel]

I appreciate your responses. That said, what's to prevent ANY Black person from having the mindset that they are going to make things better for themselves than their parents (or whomever) had it? Conversely, if they're being pushed down by the so-called "man"...and unable to better themselves? That's the question that needs to be addressed. What are those situations? Where are they existing? Who are the players that can effect change? Real change. Model communities might emerge. What then? To me, this is a grass-roots thing. Not a global mandate.

It's not an either/or. Like most problems in society, it's best to have both a bottom-up (grassroots, if you want to call it that) and a top-down (government crafting policy that makes it easier for certain communities to emerge from oppression) approach.

The protests are part of the grass roots movement. And they're putting pressure on government to do their part.

 

[Minstrel]

Members of one group commit violent crimes at a rate 6 times the number of the other group, yet you leave this out because facts don't support your propaganda.

Presumably he left it out because it's a silly number to use as a counter-argument. Black communities are policed much more heavily than white communities (and always have been, before you claim that this is a response to what criminals black people are) so even if both communities committed crimes at the same rate, the black community would see more arrests. In addition, many crimes committed disproportionately by white people (like so-called "white collar crime") are rarely actually criminalized.

 

[Orion Bailey]

It's not an either/or. Like most problems in society, it's best to have both a bottom-up (grassroots, if you want to call it that) and a top-down (government crafting policy that makes it easier for certain communities to emerge from oppression) approach.

The protests are part of the grass roots movement. And they're putting pressure on government to do their part.

My one problem with this is if the government already failed. Why are many looking for a larger government in order to fix the failures? I'm of the mindset, a larger government will only fail on a larger scale.

Meaning( and someone aimed at the socialist point of view) If we feel like the government hasn't handled things well up to this point, why would we want to put them in more control of more of our money and policies?

I think we should scale back on government, have them prove they can successfully manage the limited requirements they have and then add more to their responsibilities of the people once they prove they can be efficient and successful. Until then, I have no desire to give them more control over more things that affect my life.

 

[e_blazer]

I was going by "but I think it's also undeniable that the problems are much larger than that."

I meant that in the sense that racism is one part of a set of problems. I would agree that it's likely the most significant problem, but even if eliminated entirely, people would still be poor, there still would be drugs, there still would be gangs and crime.

I don't think anyone has suggested that, though.

Not explicitly, perhaps, but the calls for defunding the police seem to imply that the perception is that institutional racism among the police is THE major source of the problem. A major problem, yes. THE problem, no.

 

[ABM]

It's not an either/or. Like most problems in society, it's best to have both a bottom-up (grassroots, if you want to call it that) and a top-down (government crafting policy that makes it easier for certain communities to emerge from oppression) approach.

The protests are part of the grass roots movement. And they're putting pressure on government to do their part.

I do understand the up/down of it. How do you mandate, though? I think real progress will come from the ground up. Look at MLK. Was he out there mandating stuff? Yet, virtually every major city in the US has a street that bears his name. How do he do that?!? His message was one of change through peace and interaction. More of us should take heed.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I meant that in the sense that racism is one part of a set of problems. I would agree that it's likely the most significant problem, but even if eliminated entirely, people would still be poor, there still would be drugs, there still would be gangs and crime.



Not explicitly, perhaps, but the calls for defunding the police seem to imply that the perception is that institutional racism among the police is THE major source of the problem. A major problem, yes. THE problem, no.

I think the reason is because it something that can be changed completely. I think its at the spearpoint because its something tangible that people can see and witness.

 

[julius]

Sure, yeah, Mr. Global Moderator. Yrrrrright.

Take some lessons from Minstrel. He'd be a great mentor for you.

I'm not sure if you want to be talking about taking lessons from anyone, since it's been pointed out repeatedly that all you do is counter with logical fallacies, and when it's been pointed out to you that you're wrong about something you come up with a unrelated comment (that you, and only you, think is witty).

 

[Minstrel]

My one problem with this is if the government already failed. Why are many looking for a larger government in order to fix the failures? I'm of the mindset, a larger government will only fail on a larger scale.

Meaning( and someone aimed at the socialist point of view) If we feel like the government hasn't handled things well up to this point, why would we want to put them in more control of more of our money and policies?

I think we should scale back on government, have them prove they can successfully manage the limited requirements they have and then add more to their responsibilities of the people once they prove they can be efficient and successful. Until then, I have no desire to give them more control over more things that affect my life.

I don't mean this personally, but that's because this issue doesn't affect you. It's a lot easier to say "leave government out of it" when you're not being actively harmed. Government hasn't "already failed." Government policies protecting voting rights, banning employment discrimination, housing discrimination, segregation, etc, have made huge differences in society. The idea that everything would be the same, or better, if government hadn't gotten involved is totally contradicted by history. Government has done negative things too, but when a society is racist, either overtly or implicitly, there's no remedy by the oppressed class--they have no power. The only remedy is government action to preserve or create rights that mitigate racists, or racist systems.

 

[riverman]

Meanwhile, we'll just keep on occupying areas and tearing down communities and monuments, etc., in the name of systemic racism. There's real progress.

when did you start occupying areas and tearing down communities? you don't want to address racism apparently because progress is a long process after 400 years of abuse....you should read Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu.....apartheid is ugly You forgot the other two black Trumpettes…..Ben Carson and Clarence Thomas

 

[julius]

I do understand the up/down of it. How do you mandate, though? I think real progress will come from the ground up. Look at MLK. Was he out there mandating stuff? Yet, virtually every major city in the US has a street that bears his name. How do he do that?!? His message was one of change through peace and interaction. More of us should take heed.

Are you unaware of who enacted the civil rights act?