Trade Blazers trade away Noah Vonleh

[TBpup]

Vonleh holds up pretty good given that he only really got one small stretch of solid minutes...in which he was well over those numbers.

 

[Scalma]

Actually, Ed might not be a bad comparison so I looked into Ed's last 17 games to compare to Aminu's 17 games during that stretch that that Vonleh got minutes last year.

MP - 20.2 (V - 23.8, A - 29.1)
ORtg 123.3 (V - 126.4, A - 96.2)
DRtg 108.6 (V - 106.9, A - 106.1)
RPG - 7.8 (V - 8.3, A - 7.4)
PPG - 6.2 (V - 7.4, A - 8.7)
FG% - 43-66 for .651 (V - .598, A - .393) Davis taking 3.9 shots per game, Vonleh 5.1
FT% - 22-34 for .647 (V - .744, A - .706)
3Pt% - 0 on no attempts. (V - .350, A - .330)
Age - Davis 28, Aminu 27, Vonleh 23

Vonleh is the most versatile defender of the three because although he is not as tough as Davis down low, is certainly better on the perimeter. I think he is about equal to Aminu on the perimeter with even quicker feet and certain has the most strength.

The more I look at this, the more I think they traded the wrong guy.

Except Aminu makes twice as much as Vonleh which almost assuredly would’ve meant salary coming back the other way, especially since a rebuilding team probably wouldn’t have interest.

 

[dviss1]

View attachment 18554

You post numbers. I use the eye test.

How come we couldn't get a 2nd round pick for a former lottery pick???

I bet you could get a 2nd rounder for Aminu.

 

[TBpup]

Except Aminu makes twice as much as Vonleh which almost assuredly would’ve meant salary coming back the other way, especially since a rebuilding team probably wouldn’t have interest.

I agree the trade would have been more difficult. It was more about Vonleh's production when given consistent, solid minutes and how he did versus other players at his position.

 

[Scalma]

I agree the trade would have been more difficult. It was more about Vonleh's production when given consistent, solid minutes and how he did versus other players at his position.

Yeah I liked Vonleh more than Aminu at the four but I think Noah’s fate was sealed when they drafted Biggie. Tracking those two careers should be interesting. Time will tell if Portland stuck with the right one.

 

[tester551]

So you think he'd make us a championship contender? I don't.

Jimmy Buttler or Paul George still don't make us championship contenders.

There's not a 'magic bullet' out there. Portland has to climb the mountain one step at a time. They need to incrementally improve their overall talent level.

The notion that if a potential trade target doesn't make us a championship contender, therefore there's no point in trading for him is mind blowing stupidity.

 

[Scalma]

Jimmy Buttler or Paul George still don't make us championship contenders.

There's not a 'magic bullet' out there. Portland has to climb the mountain one step at a time. They need to incrementally improve their overall talent level.

The notion that if a potential trade target doesn't make us a championship contender, therefore there's no point in trading for him is mind blowing stupidity.

I disagree. George would've made us a contender. Butler wouldn't, just because it would've cost us CJ.

Agree with the rest.

 

[rotary111]

Noah's biggest improvement was on the defensive side. He was quick enough to guard multiple positions, his screens were some of the best on the team and he was one of the few guy's who would dive for loose balls.

Offensively he was hesitant to shoot which hurt his playing time.

It's not all his fault though, our offense is guard dominant and anyone not named Dame or CJ is supposed to look for them at all times. It's just the way this team is coached.

I would have rather seen biggie traded along with Hark etc. Oh well. Life goes on.

 

[TBpup]

Noah's biggest improvement was on the defensive side. He was quick enough to guard multiple positions, his screens were some of the best on the team and he was one of the few guy's who would dive for loose balls.

Offensively he was hesitant to shoot which hurt his playing time.

It's not all his fault though, our offense is guard dominant and anyone not named Dame or CJ is supposed to look for them at all times. It's just the way this team is coached.

I would have rather seen biggie traded along with Hark etc. Oh well. Life goes on.

Very well stated.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Yeah I liked Vonleh more than Aminu at the four but I think Noah’s fate was sealed when they drafted Biggie. Tracking those two careers should be interesting. Time will tell if Portland stuck with the right one.

Not sure about Noah vs. Biggie. If we switched their salaries, it's likely Biggie would have been traded. We didn't trade Vonleh because he was the "right one to be traded", but because he's the one we could trade.

 

[riverman]

WHAT DID NOAH ACTUALLY DO?

Noah was just given away to Chicago and that is generous because Portland had to PAY to unload his small, ending contract. So much for Neil's 'young assets'. It was always frustrating to me to see him start games but only play 6-7 minutes per half and sometimes not come in for the 2nd half at all. His scoring numbers were pedestrian but then for a guy who didn't have a play run for him in 3 seasons and how offensive role was to set picks and if he got the ball, immediately hand it back to a guard or look for one to pass to. So what happened when he really got to play?

Well, for all his starts in the 2016-17 season, he didn't get to play 20+ minutes in back-to-back games until March 14 of last year. When that happened and he actually got some rhythm and probably a little more confidence (which only seems natural for a then 21 year old) I was surprised by what he did in the next 18 games:
MP - 23.8 (29.1)
RPG - 8.3 (7.4)
PPG - 7.4 (8.7)
FG% - .598 on 55-92 shooting. That equates to 5.1 shots per game. (.393)
FT% - . 744 on 32-43 shooting. (.706)
On very limited 3-pt attempts, he was 7-20 for the season...35% (.330)
ORtg - 126.4 (96.2)
DRtg - 106.9 (106.1)

This season was similar when he got more minutes and in the 3 games he played over 30 minutes, he averaged 9 pts and 13.3 rebs, shot .667 from the field and 70% from the FT line. That was over a 5 games stretch. He only played over 20 minutes once more in his Blazers career.

For comparison's sake, I put Aminu's numbers for last year in (parenthesis) next to Vonleh's for last season. When Noah actually played more than sporadic minutes, he got more rebounds per minute, similar points, shot WAY better from the field, better from the FT line and even better from '3' in limited attempts. His offensive rating crushed Aminu's and his defensive rating was almost identical.

So when given his opportunities, I'm not sure how he didn't get more of a chance. The 'development' for a guy who never had a play run for him looked to be going just fine.....when he got to play. Of course I would have liked to see him be more aggressive with his offense but that wasn't his role and he certainly made the most of the shots he did take during that stretch.

I think he had a lot more to give.

I thought Noah would own the PF spot but as Olshey clearly said...he got beat out for rotation spots...this means he couldn't beat Ed, Chief, Zach or even Meyers in practice...listening to him...I think maturity was his issue...not talent...I wish him well.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I thought Noah would own the PF spot but as Olshey clearly said...he got beat out for rotation spots...this means he couldn't beat Ed, Chief, Zach or even Meyers in practice...listening to him...I think maturity was his issue...not talent...I wish him well.

TS: "Dammit Neil, I'm not playing Biebs"
NO: "But, but he's a unicorn."
TS: "Dude sucks, find me a big who plays D and can stretch the floor."
NO: "I got one, and he's fantastic - a true 2-way player."
TS: "A Fuckin' rookie? Are you kidding me? Well, he's already way better than Vonleh. Fuck."

 

[Scalma]

Not sure about Noah vs. Biggie. If we switched their salaries, it's likely Biggie would have been traded. We didn't trade Vonleh because he was the "right one to be traded", but because he's the one we could trade.

If they really believed in Vonleh they wouldn’t have drafted Biggie in the first place. It wouldn’t have made sense.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

If they really believed in Vonleh they wouldn’t have drafted Biggie in the first place. It wouldn’t have made sense.

Exactly, they decided this in the offseason.

 

[TBpup]

I thought Noah would own the PF spot but as Olshey clearly said...he got beat out for rotation spots...this means he couldn't beat Ed, Chief, Zach or even Meyers in practice...listening to him...I think maturity was his issue...not talent...I wish him well.

...except when given consistent, solid minutes, his production says otherwise. In comparison, Collins is shooting much worse and rebounding at a lower rate. We already compared Ed and Chief's numbers.

It reminds me of someone I played basketball with. He was the better player IMO but the coach wouldn't play him. On one trip, the other van with the coach in it broke down so we only had the Asst Coach and half the team. This guy went off for a triple double against the defending state champs (one of only two trip-dubs on the entire team for the season) yet the coach promptly benched him for the next game.

Sometimes it just doesn't fit when it should be better. That kid went on to play college ball while the player he was stuck behind the entire time never suited up again after that season.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

...except when given consistent, solid minutes, his production says otherwise. In comparison, Collins is shooting much worse and rebounding at a lower rate. We already compared Ed and Chief's numbers.

It wasn't about Vonleh, it was about his current salary and future salary.

I don't want to get you mad, but you're right (in other posts) in that the sacrifice of Vonleh is part of the
payment for the sins of signing Biebs and ET. I don't like it either, but it's not really about Vonleh.

 

[tester551]

...except when given consistent, solid minutes, his production says otherwise. In comparison, Collins is shooting much worse and rebounding at a lower rate. We already compared Ed and Chief's numbers.

It reminds me of someone I played basketball with. He was the better player IMO but the coach wouldn't play him. On one trip, the other van with the coach in it broke down so we only had the Asst Coach and half the team. This guy went off for a triple double against the defending state champs (one of only two trip-dubs on the entire team for the season) yet the coach promptly benched him for the next game.

Sometimes it just doesn't fit when it should be better. That kid went on to play college ball while the player he was stuck behind the entire time never suited up again after that season.

Coaches have some questionable biases sometimes.

 

[Strenuus]

Batum is better than what we have...... but his 5-15 last night (1-8 from deep) reminded me that he would not have been the difference make either. We need a wing who can shoot from deep AND attack the basket. I guarantee most here would be bitching about him if we were paying him 20 mil per.

Oh, I wasn't arguing that... I was more just noting the return we got for him, all told.

 

[ripcityboy]

I plan on watching the next few Bulls games to see how he's doing. Always liked Vonleh even though he didn't put it all together here.

 

[BonesJones]

NO traded to get under the LT. Trading two 2nd round picks for any contract would put us over again. You don't know if the guy was available for a deal that kept us under the LT.

I'm talking about trading Layman and two 2nd round picks for Hernangomez (equivilant to what he got traded for which was Johnny O'Bryant and two 2nds) along with dumping Vonleh. Would've been an upgrade, allowed us more flexibility in our decisions on Aminu and Davis going forward, and he's cheap and underrated. Best part about it is swapping Layman for Willy doesn't add any salary or put us over the luxury tax.

 

[BonesJones]

Payton makes more than Vonleh. It'd have made the LT situation worse. Plus, we'd be adding him to our strongest position, not addressing our positions of need.

IMO

I don't think anyone is advocating for Payton. But anyone that was available that we could've acquired for 2nds and is close to Layman's salary we could've swapped Layman and 2nds for and stayed under the tax line. We had about $700K, so anyone making $2M or less wouldn't have brought us back over the tax (*cough* Hernangomez *cough*)

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm talking about trading Layman and two 2nd round picks for Hernangomez (equivilant to what he got traded for which was Johnny O'Bryant and two 2nds) along with dumping Vonleh. Would've been an upgrade, allowed us more flexibility in our decisions on Aminu and Davis going forward, and he's cheap and underrated. Best part about it is swapping Layman for Willy doesn't add any salary or put us over the luxury tax.

Are you sure NY wanted Layman in return? They got a guy without a bunch of DNP-CD.

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't think anyone is advocating for Payton. But anyone that was available that we could've acquired for 2nds and is close to Layman's salary we could've swapped Layman and 2nds for and stayed under the tax line. We had about $700K, so anyone making $2M or less wouldn't have brought us back over the tax (*cough* Hernangomez *cough*)

Assuming anyone wants Layman and his career full of DNC-CD.

By my figuring, we're at about $500K under the LT.

 

[CupWizier]

Not sure about Noah vs. Biggie. If we switched their salaries, it's likely Biggie would have been traded. We didn't trade Vonleh because he was the "right one to be traded", but because he's the one we could trade.

Plus he was the one with an expiring contract and one that the team likely wouldn't have re=signed in the off season so better to deal than to just let him walk. Now the team isn't in the luxury tax and the clock for the repeater tax is avoided. I guess some things make so much sense that it's hard for some posters to understand it.

 

[BonesJones]

Assuming anyone wants Layman and his career full of DNC-CD.

By my figuring, we're at about $500K under the LT.

Why would anyone want him less than Johnny O'Bryant...?

 

[BonesJones]

Are you sure NY wanted Layman in return? They got a guy without a bunch of DNP-CD.

They traded for the 2nd round picks... Johnny Bryant was cheap filler, much like Layman would be.

 

[jlprk]

If we switched their salaries, it's likely Biggie would have been traded. We didn't trade Vonleh because he was the "right one to be traded", but because he's the one we could trade.

Also, Swanigan is the better player. He's hyperenergetic like Ed Davis, and unlike the calm Vonleh.

None of which excuses Olshey for having gotten nothing for Vonleh, maybe before this season.

 

[mook]

It's hard to look at the Noah Vonleh experience as anything but a complete failure. We gave him 109 starts on a playoff level team, with the hope that he would turn into a quality player. Toward the end he really was turning the corner, but Aminu got healthy and we decided to put our eggs in the Collins basket. I think the Blazers realized Vonleh and Collins were probably similar caliber players currently, and Collins was going to be dirt cheap for another 3 years and had more upside.

After all that time and energy invested in him, it's pretty depressing to see him get dumped as a cost-saving measure.

In hindsight we should have given all of Vonleh's minutes last year to guys like Pat and Napier. Forget about traditional 4's and just roll out 4 guards and Nurk.

 

[jlprk]

Why didn't Milovan Rakovic ever come to America? I just watched about 4 interview videos from about 4 European countries, and he always speaks English. He always talks sadly about how he must live apart from his mother, siblings, and fiance. Here's a sample. Start at 3:30 into it.

 

[jlprk]

The money binge in 2016 was a factor, but more so was drafting two other PFs last summer. Collins is the team’s future at that position. They wouldn’t have spent money on Noah regardless.

Then after the draft, Olshey should have gotten value for one of our excess of forwards (e.g. Vonleh).

It is awesome to get under the LT threshold. Some of us knew this was coming - all you had to do was look at the salary situation. It wasn’t about money, it was about avoiding the ugly taxpayer penalties.

I had high hopes for Noah, but he never stepped it up and took the position or even a backup position. His minutes always seemed to be for development purposes. I don’t know if Stotts designed any plays for him...Good move, Neil. Predictable and by the book.

So predictable, that after the draft, Olshey should have gotten value for one of our excess of forwards (e.g. Vonleh).

Or, don't you believe in planning ahead.