Politics Can Pete Buttigieg beat Trump? (1 Viewer)

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Obama didn't kowtow to calls to be more moderate, he worked to get done what was possible. He went into health care reform wanting a proper public option, but it became obvious that the "blue dog" Democrats wouldn't vote for something that progressive. It was get what ended up the ACA done or nothing at all, and even getting the ACA through was a massive slog and almost didn't happen.

And soon after, Republicans took the House. This is what I mean about people not recognizing that we don't elect emperors--you can't just get anything you want done as long as you care enough or believe enough. There was no way in hell a Republican House was ever going to vote through more progressive legislation, so Obama tried to get more moderate things done--things that incrementally moved the needle rather than holding out for things that had no hope because the opposing party obviously had no reason or incentive to go along.

You're setting Sanders up to fail you even if he did get elected President. You seem to think he can get his agenda through via sheer force of will. He can't--he needs a majority of the House and Senate to agree with him. If Republicans control either chamber (and, right now, odds are Republicans will still hold the Senate), his agenda is dead on arrival. And even if Democrats win the Senate, it'll be by a tiny margin. Any defections will tank more liberal agenda items, as Obama discovered. Then it'll look like Sanders either was ineffective or else kowtowed.
Well said..since the general public represents differing politics and feelings about policy shouldn't we have a government/congress that is more bi partisan instead of one way or the highway, that will never get anything done as you say.
 
Obama didn't kowtow to calls to be more moderate, he worked to get done what was possible. He went into health care reform wanting a proper public option, but it became obvious that the "blue dog" Democrats wouldn't vote for something that progressive. It was get what ended up the ACA done or nothing at all, and even getting the ACA through was a massive slog and almost didn't happen.

And soon after, Republicans took the House. This is what I mean about people not recognizing that we don't elect emperors--you can't just get anything you want done as long as you care enough or believe enough. There was no way in hell a Republican House was ever going to vote through more progressive legislation, so Obama tried to get more moderate things done--things that incrementally moved the needle rather than holding out for things that had no hope because the opposing party obviously had no reason or incentive to go along.

You're setting Sanders up to fail you even if he did get elected President. You seem to think he can get his agenda through via sheer force of will. He can't--he needs a majority of the House and Senate to agree with him. If Republicans control either chamber (and, right now, odds are Republicans will still hold the Senate), his agenda is dead on arrival. And even if Democrats win the Senate, it'll be by a tiny margin. Any defections will tank more liberal agenda items, as Obama discovered. Then it'll look like Sanders either was ineffective or else kowtowed.
The whole appeal of Sanders for me is that he is not like everyone else. And that he truly believes he can inspire others to join him in his fight. While he might trigger Dems in Congress from red states in the process, he still has the support of the general public (winning all popular votes/ # of donations/etc). If he does become moderate and compromises his stance to play politics with the Senate/House, I see no point in supporting him.
 
For a long time, I felt the line that defined the difference between communism and socialism was very blurred. A former Russian citizen, now living in the USA, gave me his version of the difference.

Communism is a one party system that "elects" their leaders. Much like democracy is our two party system that elects our leaders.

Socialism, the government owns and controls the economic system. We use the capitalist system were the public, as individuals or groups, owns and controls the economic system, under government regulations.

I asked him what it was like living under a socialist economic system. He thought for a moment, and these are his exact words. "It was like being raped everyday".
Bernie doesn't want the government to own the economic system. He doesn't want to eliminate capitalism. That is fear mongering bullshit. He doesn't want corporations and billionaires owning the government.
 
Bernie doesn't want the government to own the economic system. He doesn't want to eliminate capitalism. That is fear mongering bullshit. He doesn't want corporations and billionaires owning the government.

Wrong.

Bernie is on record saying he would nationalize the renewable energy companies. That is socialism.

Bernie is on record saying he wants a govt owned and operated single payer healthcare program. That is socialism.

The trouble with Bernie is, he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. He keeps comparing his plans to the Nordic countries. So let's compare.

Some of the Nortic countries are selling off their govt run businesses to private companies, such as the railroads.

All the Nordic countries now offer the choice of the govt run health care or private coverage. Every country is seeing more of their people choosing private coverage over the govt run program. Because, they receive better and faster care.

Bernie is so blind and out of touch. He does not know enough about his own plan to understand what he does not know about it.
 
I don't know why those candidates didn't appeal more to donors, all three seemed like good candidates to me, but hopefully they are analyzing what they did wrong so they can do better next time. One thing I think they did wrong was dropping out too early.

barfo
Well, they failed to be white, for one thing, which was certainly careless on their parts. Also, perhaps donors perceived too much spine in them, too much of a record of making decisions that weren't always business-grovelling, whereas Pete strikes me as someone both willing to be and likely perceived as easily molded by moneyed interests.

Why did they drop out early? Look at the narrative after (tiny, lily-white) Iowa and (tiny, lily-white) New Hampshire. I mean, Biden is practically DESIGNED to appeal there, but also should have to money to survive late into primary season, and yet he's already pretty much mortally wounded.
 
Why are people so scared of Sanders? He's just going to be PRESIDENT - how much of his socialist agenda can he really get implemented from that vantage point? Perhaps people are worried that he'll be accompanied by a democratic congress and senate and they'll show the same obeisance that the Repubs show Trump. But that seems pretty unlikely, and Sanders has certainly a long record (unlike Trump) of not exactly making huge waves.
 
Bernie doesn't want the government to own the economic system. He doesn't want to eliminate capitalism. That is fear mongering bullshit. He doesn't want corporations and billionaires owning the government.
He wouldn't think twice about putting private insurance companies out of business for his medicare for all. He and his side kicks, The Broad Squad that advocate The Green New Deal would certainly stifle business.
Ive never heard Bernie in any of the debates talk about how he would help business, large and small other than raise taxes on them. I agree with Pete and Amy that he comes across like its his way or the highway not friendly at all with Corporate America, as he gets on his Lear Jet. H'es all about His Revolution and shouts it out much like the guys he admired Castro and Chavez.
 
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Why are people so scared of Sanders? He's just going to be PRESIDENT - how much of his socialist agenda can he really get implemented from that vantage point? Perhaps people are worried that he'll be accompanied by a democratic congress and senate and they'll show the same obeisance that the Repubs show Trump. But that seems pretty unlikely, and Sanders has certainly a long record (unlike Trump) of not exactly making huge waves.

Didn't make waves = Sanders did nothing while in Congress, except cash his checks.

Sanders would be a lame duck president the minute he took office. Why waste 4 years on him?
 
Well, they failed to be white, for one thing, which was certainly careless on their parts.

They should find a way to address that for the next cycle. It does seem like a silly mistake.

Also, perhaps donors perceived too much spine in them, too much of a record of making decisions that weren't always business-grovelling, whereas Pete strikes me as someone both willing to be and likely perceived as easily molded by moneyed interests.

We need someone who can't be bought. Hey, how about a multi-billionaire?

Why did they drop out early? Look at the narrative after (tiny, lily-white) Iowa and (tiny, lily-white) New Hampshire. I mean, Biden is practically DESIGNED to appeal there, but also should have to money to survive late into primary season, and yet he's already pretty much mortally wounded.

Not sure entirely the thrust of your comment, but I'd say Biden's collapse is exactly why they should have stayed in, at least until the first votes were cast.
Any one of them could have gotten 'Klobmentum' after NH.

barfo
 
If he does become moderate and compromises his stance to play politics with the Senate/House, I see no point in supporting him.

It's either that or literally doing nothing. Ultimately, most politicians, even the very best intentioned, prefer to move things in the right direction (even if not as far as they wanted) rather than achieve nothing.
 
Why are people so scared of Sanders? He's just going to be PRESIDENT - how much of his socialist agenda can he really get implemented from that vantage point? Perhaps people are worried that he'll be accompanied by a democratic congress and senate and they'll show the same obeisance that the Repubs show Trump. But that seems pretty unlikely, and Sanders has certainly a long record (unlike Trump) of not exactly making huge waves.

I completely agree with this. I'm scared of Sanders for what he won't get done, not for what he will. Our system is designed to thwart revolutionaries and reward incrementalists.

barfo
 
I completely agree with this. I'm scared of Sanders for what he won't get done, not for what he will. Our system is designed to thwart revolutionaries and reward incrementalists.

barfo
Are you saying that Trump is an incrementalist or that he's not being rewarded by the system?
 
Are you saying that Trump is an incrementalist or that he's not being rewarded by the system?

He's operating partly outside of the system. When you are a star they let you do it.

Bernie is not likely to be as lawless.

barfo
 
I completely agree with this. I'm scared of Sanders for what he won't get done, not for what he will. Our system is designed to thwart revolutionaries and reward incrementalists.

barfo
It might be nice not to have somebody who's prepared to offer Clinton-esque "compromises" like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and "Welfare Reform". Ask Labour voters how they feel about Tony Blair - it's almost as vitriolic as Margaret Thatcher. Pete strikes me as somebody who would have a Tony Blair poster on his wall.
 
He's operating partly outside of the system. When you are a star they let you do it.

Bernie is not likely to be as lawless.

barfo
...but his henchperson AOC and Bernie's Antifa Army might not be so polite!
 
Wrong.

Bernie is on record saying he would nationalize the renewable energy companies. That is socialism.

Bernie is on record saying he wants a govt owned and operated single payer healthcare program. That is socialism.

The trouble with Bernie is, he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. He keeps comparing his plans to the Nordic countries. So let's compare.

Some of the Nortic countries are selling off their govt run businesses to private companies, such as the railroads.

All the Nordic countries now offer the choice of the govt run health care or private coverage. Every country is seeing more of their people choosing private coverage over the govt run program. Because, they receive better and faster care.

Bernie is so blind and out of touch. He does not know enough about his own plan to understand what he does not know about it.

Pretty much. Of all the candidates the Dems have brought forth (and they've basically all been bad this go-round), he's the worst. He appeals to a lot of people though because his goals all sound great. His plans to get there amount to bankruptcy and huge government ran everything and a new elite class of socialists (because that's what always comes with socialism). Least even if he got to be president most of his crap wouldn't go through unless maybe the dems tie their wagon to him like the gop has with trump.
 
It might be nice not to have somebody who's prepared to offer Clinton-esque "compromises" like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and "Welfare Reform". Ask Labour voters how they feel about Tony Blair - it's almost as vitriolic as Margaret Thatcher. Pete strikes me as somebody who would have a Tony Blair poster on his wall.

I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that the incrementalism of DADT might have gotten us to where we are now faster than an all-or-nothing approach would have.

barfo
 
Pretty much. Of all the candidates the Dems have brought forth (and they've basically all been bad this go-round), he's the worst. He appeals to a lot of people though because his goals all sound great. His plans to get there amount to bankruptcy and huge government ran everything and a new elite class of socialists (because that's what always comes with socialism). Least even if he got to be president most of his crap wouldn't go through unless maybe the dems tie their wagon to him like the gop has with trump.
As someone from Britain, he sounds like post WWII Labour politicians. Trust me, the institutions built then, like the NHS, along with beloved govt. funded institutions like the BBC are far superior to free market alternatives, and nobody got rich off them.
 
As someone from Britain, he sounds like post WWII Labour politicians. Trust me, the institutions built then, like the NHS, along with beloved govt. funded institutions like the BBC are far superior to free market alternatives, and nobody got rich off them.

But, it's not post-WWII in America now. It's pre-WWIII.

We are not about building institutions, we are about setting fire to them so that the future invaders cannot seize them. "If you burn it, they will not come."

barfo
 
His moderation policies will win no ex-Trump votes in the general.

You're exactly wrong. SO MANY PEOPLE do not like Trump and are so very eager to vote against him if there's a candidate who isn't so radical in their proposed policies as Sanders is. Your comment is the one I seem to hear from liberals who live in a bubble, but bad news, the vast majority of the voters exist outside that bubble. Moderation has the best chance against Trump, and even more important, moderation is what the country needs at the moment.
 
Bernie's whole point is to motivate people to join his side-- not appeal to the masses by being moderate, while not pushing any of his core agendas at the end of the day.

That's not what I want in a president, and clearly, that's not what the masses would want either.
 
You're exactly wrong. SO MANY PEOPLE do not like Trump and are so very eager to vote against him if there's a candidate who isn't so radical in their proposed policies as Sanders is. Your comment is the one I seem to hear from liberals who live in a bubble, but bad news, the vast majority of the voters exist outside that bubble. Moderation has the best chance against Trump, and even more important, moderation is what the country needs at the moment.
Definitely disagree. But that's cool
 
As someone from Britain, he sounds like post WWII Labour politicians. Trust me, the institutions built then, like the NHS, along with beloved govt. funded institutions like the BBC are far superior to free market alternatives, and nobody got rich off them.
IMO there are "pros and cons" to just about every system, and they can point out their successes and we can point out their failures too if we really want too, it's really not that hard. UK is overall not at all more advanced than the US in many aspects. The Royals are worth like 88B, (we're supposed to hate those 1%er's). I am just not a democratic socialist I think economically it's a bad plan that appeals to disenfranchised people (for the most part). There is obviously a whole lot wrong with the US government and crony capitalism as well. It's not a fear of Bernie like most of his supporters that I know like to tell me. It is just a disagreement with his plan to go about getting to his goals. I think his plans are flimsy at best and because of the way that government is run in the US if he is president and the DNC tie their wagon's to him as the GOP has with Trump, my guess is we'll get the worst of democratic socialism and crony capitalism in a package just right to screw us over.

I do have plenty of concerns long-term with big government and government controlling everything which is actually his platform no matter how much people say it's not. High taxation of the rich will not pay for all the things that Bernie wants to do, it will be high taxation for all of us.
 
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The socialist tag is such a farce. He's not a commie for Godsakes just because he wants people to be able to pay for healthcare and students to have education opportunities without breaking the bank.
I think of Bernie more along the line of a European Socialist.
 
I think of Bernie more along the line of a European Socialist.

Bernie is as much a Euro Socialist as the state of Rhode Island is an island.

Politicans use faulty labels to misdirect the uninformed away from the truth.

You might say Euro socialism was tried by many countries, and many of them did not like it. So they gave the ring back.
 
Bernie is as much a Euro Socialist as the state of Rhode Island is an island.

Politicans use faulty labels to misdirect the uninformed away from the truth.

You might say Euro socialism was tried by many countries, and many of them did not like it. So they gave the ring back.
Which European countries gave up on Euro Socialism? Denmark, Sweden, Germany, France, The United Kingdom? Oh, you mean Luxembourg.
 
Bernie is as much a Euro Socialist as the state of Rhode Island is an island.

Politicans use faulty labels to misdirect the uninformed away from the truth.

You might say Euro socialism was tried by many countries, and many of them did not like it. So they gave the ring back.

You claim to be an independent but you post like a FOX news contributor.
 
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