Politics Can Sanders beat Trump? (1 Viewer)

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Lanny said:
Are you kidding me?

My dog, if I had one, could beat Trump for President.

There are just not that many stupid people in this country even when coupled with the ones that hate abortion.
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Id probably rather have your imaginary Dog as president then Trump or Bernie.
However I think Trumps going to win and that feeling has grown (not subsided) as the debates and all that has gone on.

I actually think your and the left’s perceived Hatred of Trump by the left is a big reason why. We’ll see I guess. You can only be so negative for so long before people dont want to have anything to do with you, and even if they dont go vote for Trump, they may just not go vote at all.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I actually think your and the left’s perceived Hatred of Trump by the left is a big reason why. We’ll see I guess. You can only be so negative for so long before people dont want to have anything to do with you, and even if they dont go vote for Trump, they may just not go vote at all.
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If Trump himself hasn't done enough to bring democrats out in droves to remove him, they must not care. And then, I guess, we will deserve another Trump term.

Just sayin'.
 
Road Ratt said:
If Trump himself hasn't done enough to bring democrats out in droves to remove him, they must not care and then, I guess, we will deserve another Trump term.

Just sayin'.
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Id agree somewhat but I think people get tired of negativity and I dont remember a time when politics is so negative, I think it pushes a lot of people away from the subject altogether and I think in this case it helps Trump.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Id probably rather have your imaginary Dog as president then Trump or Bernie.
However I think Trumps going to win and that feeling has grown (not subsided) as the debates and all that has gone on.

I actually think your and the left’s perceived Hatred of Trump by the left is a big reason why. We’ll see I guess. You can only be so negative for so long before people dont want to have anything to do with you, and even if they dont go vote for Trump, they may just not go vote at all.
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Well, thanks for the backhanded compliment.
 

COMMUNIST PARTY USA
People and Planet Before Profits.

How to win in 2020: “To the left, march.”
HOME > ARTICLE > HOW TO WIN IN 2020: “TO THE LEFT, MARCH.”
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  • RICK NAGIN| DECEMBER 10, 2019
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    Editor’s note: This article responds to the November 2019 discussion question on political independence, working-class leadership, and the fight for democracy.

    Defeating Trump and the ultra-right in 2020 means moving the electorate to the left. The most effective force doing that is the Sanders campaign, which we should become fully immersed in. Sanders has the most consistent and clear progressive, anti-monopoly program on a multitude of issues, including health care, taxation, workers’ rights, the environment, and foreign policy. That means he is a magnet for progressives working in all fields. He has made great improvements in his approach to the question of racism and has a growing base among young, progressive African Americans. Unlike any other candidate, he also raises the systemic question, defiantly rejecting appeals that he drop use of the word “socialism,” and calls additionally for a “political revolution,” meaning a grass-roots movement needed to enact and enforce his progressive agenda. Sanders is a social democrat and sees his agenda as confined within the capitalist system, but he is encouraging movement that would likely go further. The ruling class is obviously very concerned about his impact and has lost confidence that Biden can win the nomination. That is certainly why people like Mike Bloomberg and Deval Patrick have gotten in the race.

    It would be a serious error if the Party were to be indifferent about the Democratic primary and simply say we will support whoever the Dems nominate. That may be forced on us, but in the meantime, we have the opportunity to help move the electorate to the left, advance an anti-monopoly program, popularize our concept of socialism, develop ties with other healthy left forces, and build the Party. No other campaign comes close to providing us with such opportunities, and we would be extremely foolish to ignore this campaign or equate it with those of the other Dems. As the Communist Manifesto states, we fight “for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; but in the movement of the present, [we] also represent and take care of the future of that movement.”

    The first step is to defeat the ultra-right. We recognize that the Dems are the only political party that can do that, but we must also prepare for the next step, which is an anti-monopoly government. This means we accept a Dem-led government but also call for the maximum number of anti-monopoly forces to be elected to Congress as well. That will set the stage for the next step of an anti-monopoly government that includes Communists, which would open the door to socialism. If we focus only on electing Dems, what is the reason for us to exist?

    Of course, the electoral/legislative arena is not the only arena of the class struggle, but it is the widest arena and the one that draws together key activists in every progressive struggle, especially those in organized labor and the African American community. We should be active in organized labor and all other fronts to build the “political revolution” from the ground up. But to ignore the Dem primary or equate all the Dem candidates would isolate us from the working class and people. It would amount to an opportunist surrender to the forces of reaction.

    Editor’s note: This article is in response to the discussion question on working-class leadership in political struggle.



    Comments








 
Chris Craig said:
It will be the highest turnout in election history
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I don't think it will be. It's February and we've got MONTHS more of political crap to dig through, it's just my opinion but I think people are already tired of politics - and while the left may think it's just tired of Trump - I think there are a lot of people who are tired of all of it, maybe Bernie can excite enough of his base to turn out in November, but I think a lot of people are just at the stage of please tell me when it's over and we can try again 4 years.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I don't think it will be. It's February and we've got MONTHS more of political crap to dig through, it's just my opinion but I think people are already tired of politics - and while the left may think it's just tired of Trump - I think there are a lot of people who are tired of all of it, maybe Bernie can excite enough of his base to turn out in November, but I think a lot of people are just at the stage of please tell me when it's over and we can try again 4 years.
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I think people are tired of just talking about politics...but when it comes down to November, they will turn out and vote their conscience.
 
yankeesince59 said:
I think people are tired of just talking about politics...but when it comes down to November, they will turn out and vote their conscience.
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Do you think the Dems will come out in recvord numbers if Bernies the nominee?
I just cant see it, I think there will be those on the fence that vote for Trump rather than Bernie, especially in midwest and SE/South. I might be wrong, but there are huge patriotic, flag waving numbers in those and I don't see them embracing democratic socialism with a guy that has been cozy with communist regime ways. I might be wrong, but I think the reason Trump won was because many dems/inde. voted for him, as a vote against Hillary and I see the same with Sanders.
 
Hoopguru said:
Do you think the Dems will come out in recvord numbers if Bernies the nominee?
I just cant see it, I think there will be those on the fence that vote for Trump rather than Bernie, especially in midwest and SE/South. I might be wrong, but there are huge patriotic, flag waving numbers in those and I don't see them embracing democratic socialism with a guy that has been cozy with communist regime ways. I might be wrong, but I think the reason Trump won was because many dems/inde. voted for him, as a vote against Hillary and I see the same with Sanders.
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Bernie is by no means my first choice but if/when it comes down to it I'll vote for him instead of Trump because for me, the number one priority is to get that lying, crooked, bombastic jack wagon out of office.
 
Hoopguru said:
Do you think the Dems will come out in recvord numbers if Bernies the nominee?
I just cant see it, I think there will be those on the fence that vote for Trump rather than Bernie, especially in midwest and SE/South. I might be wrong, but there are huge patriotic, flag waving numbers in those and I don't see them embracing democratic socialism with a guy that has been cozy with communist regime ways. I might be wrong, but I think the reason Trump won was because many dems/inde. voted for him, as a vote against Hillary and I see the same with Sanders.
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The only states that really matter, though, are the large population swing states--Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin. Nearly every other state's electoral votes are already basically locked in. Do you think Trump wins the "fence sitters" in those states?
 
PtldPlatypus said:
The only states that really matter, though, are the large population swing states--Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin. Nearly every other state's electoral votes are already basically locked in. Do you think Trump wins the "fence sitters" in those states?
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Very true, and I do think he will win the fence sitters, especially in WI as it's my second home and they fly American flags from manufactures rafters, ride Harley's, still smoke in public places, guns owners galore and Hunting and Ice fishing is a religion.
 
Hoopguru said:
As clear as a blue sky...the guy has been a full time activist his whole life, most it build around socialism that in any form will grow the government massively and end up cost middle income earners exorberant tax increase like they've never seen before.
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Yeah, and we can post the same thing a million times (HE CAN'T PAY FOR IT WITHOUT RAISING TAXES ON THE VERY PEOPLE WHO PASSIONATELY SUPPORT HIM) but Bernie supporters just won't accept it. His entire campaign, all the beautiful ideas, none of it will happen, because none of it can happen.

Bernie supporters also won't accept that most American's know this and either don't like him to begin with or know he's full of shit, so it's doubtful he can even get elected and have the opportunity to let all of his supporters down.

Have to learn the hard way, it's the American way apparently.
 
Hoopguru said:
I might be wrong, but I think the reason Trump won was because many dems/inde. voted for him, as a vote against Hillary and I see the same with Sanders.
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It's worth noting that a lot of analysis found that Sanders was drawing in people who don't usually vote Democratic (or, in many cases, don't vote at all) in 2016 and they didn't bother to vote for Clinton, because they were Sanders fans, not leftists or Democrats.

So, I don't think it's true that Sanders only appeals to hyper-partisan leftists. While I think Sanders is a completely different type of person from Trump, like Trump he appeals to "political outsiders," who otherwise wouldn't be Democratic voters. You may be significantly underestimating how many people he can draw under his banner.
 
Minstrel said:
While I think Sanders is a completely different type of person from Trump, like Trump he appeals to "political outsiders," who otherwise wouldn't be Democratic voters.
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That's sort of a round about way of calling him a populist (something that Trump is not, of course). :P
 
Road Ratt said:
That's sort of a round about way of calling him a populist (something that Trump is not, of course). :P
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Yeah, he's a populist, but populism has a few different connotations and meanings to people, and I wanted to highlight the fact that he was also appealing to non-Democrats, so has a different profile than Hillary Clinton did in 2016.
 
Also, the idea that lots of Democrats sat out the 2016 election because they "hated Clinton" and that's what cost her the election and, therefore, is a risk for Sanders is way overblown. Clinton didn't underperform in general, she underperformed in a particularly damaging way for our bizarre system. She actually did much better than most Democratic candidates do in states like Texas and Arizona--the problem is, she didn't win those states, so that gain was useless to her, electorally. She underperformed and barely lost states in the Midwest. That specific type of underperformance in some places and overperformance elsewhere is how you win the popular vote but lose the Electoral College.

So, if Sanders wins the nomination and you hope or think he loses to Trump, I wouldn't pin those beliefs on "Democrats sat out on Clinton, so they'll do the same on Sanders." Overall, they didn't really sit out on Clinton--Clinton's profile (whom she appealed to and whom she didn't) and campaign strategy was a bad fit for winning the Electoral College. Sanders has a completely different profile as to whom he appeals to.
 
Minstrel said:
Also, the idea that lots of Democrats sat out the 2016 election because they "hated Clinton" and that's what cost her the election and, therefore, is a risk for Sanders is way overblown. Clinton didn't underperform in general, she underperformed in a particularly damaging way for our bizarre system. She actually did much better than most Democratic candidates do in states like Texas and Arizona--the problem is, she didn't win those states, so that gain was useless to her, electorally. She underperformed and barely lost states in the Midwest. That specific type of underperformance in some places and overperformance elsewhere is how you win the popular vote but lose the Electoral College.

So, if Sanders wins the nomination and you hope or think he loses to Trump, I wouldn't pin those beliefs on "Democrats sat out on Clinton, so they'll do the same on Sanders." Overall, they didn't really sit out on Clinton--Clinton's profile (whom she appealed to and whom she didn't) and campaign strategy was a bad fit for winning the Electoral College. Sanders has a completely different profile as to whom he appeals to.
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Hillary and Trump were not well liked people. In fact, I believe they were two of the most disliked people on any presidential ticket in recent history, if not all-time. Trump was playing a bit of the populist card, seeing that Bernie had tapped into a vein of voters generally ignored by more "mainstream" politicians, which brought in more of Bernie's followers after he dropped out than Hillary did, because Hillary wasn't telling them what they wanted to hear.

The other problem that I see is. Hillary wasn't getting people talking, there was no buzz around her like there was with Trump. Trump was getting his base fired up as well as drawing in disillusioned voters who have given up on our political system. Hillary's message wasn't firing up enough voters beyond her base to get her elected.

I'm not sure if people have looked at the polls recently to see who the most liked politician in congress is.
 
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Some interesting numbers from 538 on the Democratic field:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/democratic-debate-south-carolina-poll/

Interesting to see that Sanders has easily the best favorability numbers among the candidates, and also narrowly leads in perceptions of electability. His "unfavorable" numbers are higher than some of the other candidates, but not concerningly so--he actually has lower unfavorable numbers than Joe Biden, who's supposed to be the most electable candidate and the best "compromise" candidate. These numbers don't suggest that, IMO.

Bloomberg is the one with (justifiably, IMO) terrible unfavorable numbers.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I don't think it will be. It's February and we've got MONTHS more of political crap to dig through, it's just my opinion but I think people are already tired of politics - and while the left may think it's just tired of Trump - I think there are a lot of people who are tired of all of it, maybe Bernie can excite enough of his base to turn out in November, but I think a lot of people are just at the stage of please tell me when it's over and we can try again 4 years.
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Alot of people don't care about the primaries. Most people are waiting till November. Its going to be the biggest turnout ever. Mark my words
 
Hoopguru said:
Do you think the Dems will come out in recvord numbers if Bernies the nominee?
I just cant see it, I think there will be those on the fence that vote for Trump rather than Bernie, especially in midwest and SE/South. I might be wrong, but there are huge patriotic, flag waving numbers in those and I don't see them embracing democratic socialism with a guy that has been cozy with communist regime ways. I might be wrong, but I think the reason Trump won was because many dems/inde. voted for him, as a vote against Hillary and I see the same with Sanders.
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Yes. He won the moderate vote in Nevada. He has a much larger base then people give him credit for. People are voting for Bernie and its not just young people either. If he is the nominee, he will likely pick a moderate running mate like Klobuchar and have no trouble in the midwest and South East. He is not a communist...thats a low blow. Alot of his ideas are out there, but I think headed in the direction we need to go. With a moderate running mate that can all be balanced out.
 
Chris Craig said:
Yes. He won the moderate vote in Nevada. He has a much larger base then people give him credit for. People are voting for Bernie and its not just young people either. If he is the nominee, he will likely pick a moderate running mate like Klobuchar and have no trouble in the midwest and South East. He is not a communist...thats a low blow. Alot of his ideas are out there, but I think headed in the direction we need to go. With a moderate running mate that can all be balanced out.
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Perhaps, but....".....moderates firmly believe a Sanders primary win would seal Donald Trump’s reelection."

We shall see. Nonetheless, going to be very, very interesting moving forward.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/23/sanders-democratic-establishment-panic-mode-117065
 
Chris Craig said:
Yes. He won the moderate vote in Nevada. He has a much larger base then people give him credit for. People are voting for Bernie and its not just young people either. If he is the nominee, he will likely pick a moderate running mate like Klobuchar and have no trouble in the midwest and South East. He is not a communist...thats a low blow. Alot of his ideas are out there, but I think headed in the direction we need to go. With a moderate running mate that can all be balanced out.
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https://www.nydailynews.com/news/po...0200224-a7weqx6emvf3bah6qh5mqqqgya-story.html

This is what's concerning about Bernie though. If he is the Nominee for the dems. He's going to have to stop building up guys like Castro. He needs states like FL to win, aren't going to get it like that.
 
Chris Craig said:
He is not a communist...thats a low blow. Alot of his ideas are out there, but I think headed in the direction we need to go. With a moderate running mate that can all be balanced out.
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He can't pay for anything he's talking about. So if you think paying more tax is the direction to go, we disagree.
 
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