Politics Can Sanders beat Trump?

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BTW. Bernie would be FDR on steroids. A complete abuse of power and quid pro quo.
 
ABM said:
BTW. Bernie would be FDR on steroids. A complete abuse of power and quid pro quo.
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So since you like that sort of thing, I assume you'll be voting Bernie in 2020?

barfo
 
Minstrel said:
Read this today, thought I'd leave it here. I don't read much Vox, but I like Matthew Yglesias.

Mainstream Democrats shouldn’t fear Bernie Sanders
He’d be a strong nominee and a solid president.
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Good read.

It hadn't yet occurred to me that if Bernie gets elected, there will be some very angry Bernie bros when they discover there will not be a revolution and that he's an establishment hack much like everyone else.

And that will be a wee bit entertaining.

barfo
 
barfo said:
Good read.

It hadn't yet occurred to me that if Bernie gets elected, there will be some very angry Bernie bros when they discover there will not be a revolution and that he's an establishment hack much like everyone else.

And that will be a wee bit entertaining.

barfo
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I think you'll be disappointed by how few people react that way. But I am pretty sure he will do all he can to stop billionaires and yuge corporations from controlling politics. Of course it's not all going to get completely solved in 4 years. I'd bet very few people are expecting that.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
I think you'll be disappointed by how few people react that way. But I am pretty sure he will do all he can to stop billionaires and yuge corporations from controlling politics. Of course it's not all going to get completely solved in 4 years. I'd bet very few people are expecting that.
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I don't know about that. I saw plenty of people deeply disillusioned with Obama when he turned out to not be able to part the seas and make lions lay down with the lambs.

Maybe Bernie supporters are much more practical, we'll see. Their rhetoric suggests otherwise.

barfo
 
Minstrel said:
Read this today, thought I'd leave it here. I don't read much Vox, but I like Matthew Yglesias.

Mainstream Democrats shouldn’t fear Bernie Sanders
He’d be a strong nominee and a solid president.
Click to expand...
This is just an opinion but I think what much of politics comes down too right now are these two things what do people fear, and who do we blame for where the country is currently at.
The “progressives” and such seem to have a fear of the 0.01% that they are controlling everything, that they are using government legislation to increase their fortunes and to hold competition at arms length. At the same time they blame the 0.01% for many of the failures of our society, they think the existence of billionaires is wrong because they got there by keeping poor and middle class people poor and middle class.
Then on the other side you have a bunch of people who fear basically the government and large government agencies controlling everything they do. They think you give them an inch and they’ll take a mile, that even the more respectable goals of healthcare and such will eventually lead to a chinese like social system that the government is literally telling us what to think say, and what to believe. They blame long time politicians, political correctness, and corrupt government officials for where they are currently at financially and their social status.
I think most moderates see bits and pieces of all those things that they agree with but are “fearful” of both extreme answers to the topics at hand.
I know those are massive generalities and not necessarily true for everyone. However I 100% believe whether its a “Bernie bro”, or a “Trumpster”, for most people if we take a step back from ourselves and our emotions and try to think about it from the perspective of someone else, we could at least begin to understand that those people are really driven by very similar things as we are even if they have a different outlook on what the issues are and who is causing them.

Personally I dont fear “Bernie”, but I also can totally say I do have some very strong hesitations about socialism overall and what “big” government means for me, and for my family. Now this article may be right maybe Bernie wouldnt be so bad and many of his more “extreme” ideas wouldnt get through. However if we as a country can stop with the rhetoric and saying things like Bernies a commie, or if you vote Trump you’re a racist, and begin to talk and communicate respectfully about things I think we’d be better off for it.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
This is just an opinion but I think what much of politics comes down too right now are these two things what do people fear, and who do we blame for where the country is currently at.
[...]However if we as a country can stop with the rhetoric and saying things like Bernies a commie, or if you vote Trump you’re a racist, and begin to talk and communicate respectfully about things I think we’d be better off for it.
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That's a revolutionary idea you have there!

I fear it, and I blame you.

barfo
 
barfo said:
So since you like that sort of thing, I assume you'll be voting Bernie in 2020?

barfo
Click to expand...

Actually, no. We're currently in the process of selling all of our assets and moving to The Azores.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
This is just an opinion but I think what much of politics comes down too right now are these two things what do people fear, and who do we blame for where the country is currently at.
The “progressives” and such seem to have a fear of the 0.01% that they are controlling everything, that they are using government legislation to increase their fortunes and to hold competition at arms length. At the same time they blame the 0.01% for many of the failures of our society, they think the existence of billionaires is wrong because they got there by keeping poor and middle class people poor and middle class.
Then on the other side you have a bunch of people who fear basically the government and large government agencies controlling everything they do. They think you give them an inch and they’ll take a mile, that even the more respectable goals of healthcare and such will eventually lead to a chinese like social system that the government is literally telling us what to think say, and what to believe. They blame long time politicians, political correctness, and corrupt government officials for where they are currently at financially and their social status.
I think most moderates see bits and pieces of all those things that they agree with but are “fearful” of both extreme answers to the topics at hand.
I know those are massive generalities and not necessarily true for everyone. However I 100% believe whether its a “Bernie bro”, or a “Trumpster”, for most people if we take a step back from ourselves and our emotions and try to think about it from the perspective of someone else, we could at least begin to understand that those people are really driven by very similar things as we are even if they have a different outlook on what the issues are and who is causing them.

Personally I dont fear “Bernie”, but I also can totally say I do have some very strong hesitations about socialism overall and what “big” government means for me, and for my family. Now this article may be right maybe Bernie wouldnt be so bad and many of his more “extreme” ideas wouldnt get through. However if we as a country can stop with the rhetoric and saying things like Bernies a commie, or if you vote Trump you’re a racist, and begin to talk and communicate respectfully about things I think we’d be better off for it.
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Very good post!
As a people we do need to come together and help pave an easier way for the young people to learn what it means to give and take and be free in offering ideas and building on freedom and respect for others.
 
barfo said:
Good read.

It hadn't yet occurred to me that if Bernie gets elected, there will be some very angry Bernie bros when they discover there will not be a revolution and that he's an establishment hack much like everyone else.
Click to expand...
Depends what you mean by "establishment". Seems like the billionaires will be equally surprised if he turns out to be what Pete Buttigieg already nakedly is.
 
barfo said:
Good read.

It hadn't yet occurred to me that if Bernie gets elected, there will be some very angry Bernie bros when they discover there will not be a revolution and that he's an establishment hack much like everyone else.

And that will be a wee bit entertaining.

barfo
Click to expand...
Shit you might as well just vote for Bloomberg then.
 
yankeesince59 said:
You "try to be" what?
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Vague. Heh, but only with you.

Seriously, though, I don't have to defend myself to you, nor anyone else, as to why I'll vote for Trump. It's already been well documented in these parts. That said, at this point, I'd suggest that you just go the way of Cup and put me on ignore status. You'd then have more time on your hands. :)
 
ABM said:
Vague. Heh, but only with you.

Seriously, though, I don't have to defend myself to you, nor anyone else, as to why I'll vote for Trump. It's already been well documented in these parts. That said, at this point, I'd suggest that you just go the way of Cup and put me on ignore status. You'd then have more time on your hands. :)
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I'm sure you'd like that, but no thanks, if nothing else, I still think you're good for batting practice every now and then.

And I never asked you who you'd be voting for. I ask you if you were "selling all your assets and moving to the Azores, why would you care about Trump/GOP, one way or another?"
 
ABM said:
Nah, I just trot stuff out the side of my neck...

https://spectator.org/franklin-delano-quid-pro-quo/
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You're focusing on the literal words "quid pro quo" rather than what was actually problematic in Trump's case. No one is saying that every "quid pro quo" is impeachable. "This for that" is pretty typical legislative maneuvering in Congress, for instance (including the President's influencing of legislation). Selective enforcement of regulations (which is basically what your FDR article is talking about) is a tool that just about every President has utilized including Trump. While it's shady ethically, no one's been impeached for that, including Trump.

The issue with Trump is that he was using foreign policy (a tool that's supposed to be wielded for the good of nation) to try to get something specifically for himself. And not just anything for himself--an attack on a political rival. Placing his own personal good ahead of the country's in dealing with a foreign nation was the problem. The "quid pro quo" was simply the meat of that deal--help me find dirt on Biden and I'll release to you the foreign aid that Congress already approved.

So if you can provide an example that FDR was using US foreign policy to enrich himself or attack political rivals, then you'd have a clean comparison with Trump.
 
Minstrel said:
The issue with Trump is that he was using foreign policy (a tool that's supposed to be wielded for the good of nation) to try to get something specifically for himself.
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That's certainly the assumption, yes. Or, perhaps, he really didn't give a rip about the risk of Biden beating him in the upcoming election, and simply wanted to deal with the high conflict of interest, potential corruption, and the like, pertaining to Joe and his son/family. Trump has no problem going after people every which way. At any rate, nobody's really proven anything here.
 
ABM said:
and simply wanted to deal with the high conflict of interest, potential corruption, and the like, pertaining to Joe and his son/family.
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I mean, it's great (well, not great, but you know what I mean) if you're determined to always vote Republican purely due to being against abortion, but you're certainly smart enough to know that Trump doesn't "give a rip" about corruption, considering the high level of corruption in his own administration. You're smart enough to realize that it's not mere coincidence that where he claims to have taken a stand against corruption happened to connect to someone who seemed (at the time) like the front-runner to run against him for re-election.

You don't need me to tell you these things. If you want to vote for Trump due to to abortion, you should, but don't pretend to yourself that he's a great guy who did nothing wrong. Own that you're voting for a corrupt dude because he'll do the one thing you want.
 
Minstrel said:
You don't need me to tell you these things. If you want to vote for Trump due to to abortion, you should, but don't pretend to yourself that he's a great guy who did nothing wrong. Own that you're voting for a corrupt dude because he'll do the one thing you want.
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I appreciate your candor, Sir. :)

By the way, I've mentioned many times in here that John Kasich is actually my guy. Would've voted for him, and would vote for him if it were between him and Trump.

That said, we have to have a President, so I'll vote accordingly.
 
Minstrel said:
I mean, it's great (well, not great, but you know what I mean) if you're determined to always vote Republican purely due to being against abortion, but you're certainly smart enough to know that Trump doesn't "give a rip" about corruption, considering the high level of corruption in his own administration. You're smart enough to realize that it's not mere coincidence that where he claims to have taken a stand against corruption happened to connect to someone who seemed (at the time) like the front-runner to run against him for re-election.

You don't need me to tell you these things. If you want to vote for Trump due to to abortion, you should, but don't pretend to yourself that he's a great guy who did nothing wrong. Own that you're voting for a corrupt dude because he'll do the one thing you want.
Click to expand...

I've missed you. I'm glad you're back. Don't leave. Ever.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Depends what you mean by "establishment". Seems like the billionaires will be equally surprised if he turns out to be what Pete Buttigieg already nakedly is.
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If billionaires voted only their financial self-interest, they'd support Trump not Pete. Trump's tax cut is a huge gift/grift.

As for 'establishment', I don't know. I am not sure it has any actual meaning beyond 'everyone but my favored candidate'.

barfo
 
jonnyboy said:
Shit you might as well just vote for Bloomberg then.
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I don't think I'd get the same entertainment value out of that.

barfo
 
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