Politics Can Sanders beat Trump?

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Users who are viewing this thread

That's a good choice, the Azores are very nice. Do you speak Portuguese?

barfo

You're probably the only person in here who knows I was being facetious without having to use the green font goop. But, to answer your question, no, I don't speak Portuguese, but our extended family is planning to take a nice long trip there within the next year. My Niece's boyfriend is from there, so we'll have a great tour guide. :)
 
You're probably the only person in here who knows I was being facetious without having to use the green font goop. But, to answer your question, no, I don't speak Portuguese, but our extended family is planning to take a nice long trip there within the next year. My Niece's boyfriend is from there, so we'll have a great tour guide. :)

BS
 
Living outside the US as a dual citizen is one thing but selling everything you have and moving out of the US to another country is something else. Unless I'm mistaken, to be able to vote you still must have a residency in the US and there's also some other rules/laws pertaining to citizenship that I'd have to look up.
My reply to abm was based purely on his response to barfo's post.

So he's still posting here? Been awhile since I have seen any of his posts. :biglaugh:
 

Nah, you thought I was actually moving to The Azures. You have to read between the lines with @barfo. His wit/humor is delicately coded within otherwise innocuous posts. He's really a lot of fun.
 
Nah, you thought I was actually moving to The Azures. You have to read between the lines with @barfo. His wit/humor is delicately coded within otherwise innocuous posts. He's really a lot of fun.
Yeah, right....so let me alter my previous statement...Bovine Excreta.

I'm quite familiar with barfo's wit...but it was not his comment I referred to, it was yours.
 
Yeah, right....so let me alter my previous statement...Bovine Excreta.

I'm quite familiar with barfo's wit...but it was not his comment I referred to, it was yours.

I know.
 
At any rate, sorry to hit your funny bone with the communist references. Certainly didn't mean to tickle your sabers.
Wow, I'm getting Shooter/TalkHard flashbacks of no-actual-human-talks-like-this.
 
Heh. It's kinda fun to watch you in action. You're kinda like a Cup-lite. ;)

At any rate, sorry to hit your funny bone with the communist references. Certainly didn't mean to tickle your sabers.

Well, yeah, while Bernie's most likely not a communist in the pure sense, he's certainly a lot more left-leaning that your every day American Democrat. So much so, I believe the party leaders will be doing all they can to keep him from becoming the nominee. Shoot, even Bill Clinton's guy, James Carville, calls him an ideologue. Funny stuff....

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/13/politics/bernie-sanders-james-carville-criticism/index.html
Was the part about comparing Rastapopoulos to cup a personal attack intended to insult because it sure looks like it?
 
For real though, some of Bernie's stuff is borderline communism. The definition contains a lot of different things depending on what definition you want to go with but, Karl Marx advocated class wars, worker control, and taking away the power of the ruling class. It seems to me that many of his followers at least do want to engage in a class war with the ultra-rich, are working for worker-control and unionization. We can play with words and definitions all we want to call him a communist, a social democrat, a democrat, a socialist, whatever but that's all semantics at the end of the day. So you can call me a moron I don't really care, but his ideology is at the very least somewhere off on the side of large government spending, socializing things that are mostly privatized right now and at odds with the bourgeoisie. I'm not even really passing judgment on if those are good or bad things, but that's basically his platform or at least what most of his vocal online "base" seem to view as his platform.
No. Just no. The kind of "class war" anybody but a very tiny number of people actually talk about in the US is just "increase the taxes on the rich". It's not literal "storm the gated communities and put them to the sword". If Bernie was really a communist he wouldn't be part of the American system of government. And even if he was a deep cover communist, he would have zero chance of getting the other two branches of government to comply in ripping up the constitution. He doesn't even advocate a dictatorship of the proletariat while the state withers away, for God's sake. Bernie is what we in the political theory world refer to as a liberal, in that, like Locke and Mill, he sees the individual as the basic unit of value, and individual rights as paramount. As such he is not a Communist. He's a self-styled democratic socialist, and the "democracy" part is the tell - you don't need democracy if you speak with the voice of the people as one unit.
(Another clue: he's a bit of a protectionist. Communism is international.)
 
No. Just no. The kind of "class war" anybody but a very tiny number of people actually talk about in the US is just "increase the taxes on the rich". It's not literal "storm the gated communities and put them to the sword". If Bernie was really a communist he wouldn't be part of the American system of government. And even if he was a deep-cover communist, he would have zero chance of getting the other two branches of government to comply in ripping up the constitution. He doesn't even advocate a dictatorship of the proletariat while the state withers away, for God's sake. Bernie is what we in the political theory world refer to as a liberal, in that, like Locke and Mill, he sees the individual as the basic unit of value and individual rights as paramount. As such he is not a Communist. He's a self-styled democratic socialist, and the "democracy" part is the tell - you don't need democracy if you speak with the voice of the people as one unit.
(Another clue: he's a bit of a protectionist. Communism is international.)
Or he's just smart and realizes he can't jump in and do it all at once. Communism's long term goal is international, but does that mean there are no communists since we don't have one world order yet... So many of Bernie types say how amazing he'll be for international relationships so yeah some of the goals of his fans are international.
He is advocating for taking away the power of the ultra-rich and redistribution of wealth, both socialist agenda's. If you read most communist authors they say that communism is just a more advanced form of socialism.
He can and you can call him whatever the heck you please but like I said most of that is semantics, his ideologies ARE on that side of the political spectrum whether you want to admit it or not.
 
No. Just no. The kind of "class war" anybody but a very tiny number of people actually talk about in the US is just "increase the taxes on the rich". It's not literal "storm the gated communities and put them to the sword". If Bernie was really a communist he wouldn't be part of the American system of government. And even if he was a deep cover communist, he would have zero chance of getting the other two branches of government to comply in ripping up the constitution. He doesn't even advocate a dictatorship of the proletariat while the state withers away, for God's sake. Bernie is what we in the political theory world refer to as a liberal, in that, like Locke and Mill, he sees the individual as the basic unit of value, and individual rights as paramount. As such he is not a Communist. He's a self-styled democratic socialist, and the "democracy" part is the tell - you don't need democracy if you speak with the voice of the people as one unit.
(Another clue: he's a bit of a protectionist. Communism is international.)
I am kind of messing with you by the way. Though I think there is a lot of changing of the meaning of words and labels to get what we want to sound good going on and I think while he's not a straight-up commie like say @barfo heh. His ideologies do in fact lean that direction on the political spectrum, and it's only this kind of "American" thing where communism is a bad word that has caused politicians to flee from that label at all costs. We're arguing different things though, you're arguments are look there are differences between him and a communist (in the traditional political definition) - which I would grant you that there are differences. I am arguing that his political leanings do in fact come way closer to the edge of communism than most. Without the negative stigma's around the word communism, I think his fans would be more ok with that, instead of trying to point out each and every way he isn't a "true communist", it's all politics. If culturally the word communism didn't have the negativity surrounding it, most of his supporters wouldn't have an issue with the word being used.
Yes, words and semantics can be important, I'm probably downplaying it too much, but to many, he represents big government, big government spending, redistribution of wealth, hate for the rich, and giving the government more power over us. Which I think in the minds of many is a scary thing, even if Bernie wouldn't be able to act on all of his ideas, I think they see it as a gateway for going that direction. In fact, I think that's why many young people like him, they think it's a gateway to getting the country to go left. Politics at the end of the day really is just a means of garnering power over others.
 
Yes, words and semantics can be important, I'm probably downplaying it too much, but to many, he represents big government, big government spending, redistribution of wealth, hate for the rich, and giving the government more power over us. Which I think in the minds of many is a scary thing, even if Bernie wouldn't be able to act on all of his ideas, I think they see it as a gateway for going that direction. In fact, I think that's why many young people like him, they think it's a gateway to getting the country to go left. Politics at the end of the day really is just a means of garnering power over others.
The very term "big government" is a Reagan-era, Ayn Rand-influenced invention. No president seriously doesn't agree with the power of the presidency. Trump is using it more than any president in decades and decades. Bernie is perfectly right that the right is AT LEAST as "socialist" as the left in terms of "government intervening", it's just that it's in favor of agribusiness and big business generally. There is no genuine "small government" party except the actual Libertarian party, and you can see how popular they are. The Tea Party was SUPPOSED to be that, but as actual True Believes like Justin Amash keep pointing out - it turns out they were just waiting for an authoritarian they liked.

"Giving the government more power over us"? Please. I grew up in England, where even MARGARET FUCKING THATCHER, who made Reagan look like a wishy-washy centrist, couldn't lay one clawed talon on the cherished institutions like the NHS (ooooh! Socialized medicine!!!) and the BBC (oooh! State propaganda!), so she had to settle for destroying the unions instead. I even got a 100% free university education, as did everyone in my generation, Tory government or not. Nobody in the UK is saying "relieve me from the oppressive yoke of my free healthcare and free education!" any more than people in the US are saying that about "big government" programs like, oh, public education, Social Security, Medicare. I'd love to know what TANGIBLE freedoms we lose when we gain the very obvious freedom of "being healthy and employable" from those programs.
 
The very term "big government" is a Reagan-era, Ayn Rand-influenced invention. No president seriously doesn't agree with the power of the presidency. Trump is using it more than any president in decades and decades. Bernie is perfectly right that the right is AT LEAST as "socialist" as the left in terms of "government intervening", it's just that it's in favor of agribusiness and big business generally. There is no genuine "small government" party except the actual Libertarian party, and you can see how popular they are. The Tea Party was SUPPOSED to be that, but as actual True Believes like Justin Amash keep pointing out - it turns out they were just waiting for an authoritarian they liked.

"Giving the government more power over us"? Please. I grew up in England, where even MARGARET FUCKING THATCHER, who made Reagan look like a wishy-washy centrist, couldn't lay one clawed talon on the cherished institutions like the NHS (ooooh! Socialized medicine!!!) and the BBC (oooh! State propaganda!), so she had to settle for destroying the unions instead. I even got a 100% free university education, as did everyone in my generation, Tory government or not. Nobody in the UK is saying "relieve me from the oppressive yoke of my free healthcare and free education!" any more than people in the US are saying that about "big government" programs like, oh, public education, Social Security, Medicare. I'd love to know what TANGIBLE freedoms we lose when we gain the very obvious freedom of "being healthy and employable" from those programs.
You’re really good at circling around the argument and running off to the topics you want to talk about. Is Bernie way closer to communism than you guys want to admit? Yup. But you’ll just tell me that you grew up in England so therefore your opinion on big government and Socialism and all that is what matters. The origin of the phrase of big government is just about as important as the origin of the word communism, as in not relevant. Wherever it came from we know what it means now or at least means to us.

You literally cannot argue that Bernie doesn't lean that direction, so you run around it to talk about other things, or try to use other terms you can describe it with.

Bernie may or may not be a good president if he gets that far but his supporters are so much in denial about any criticism towards him they've begun to sound like Trump supporters. Which hey I guess that makes sense since like you said the right and the left are really the same, they just want to screw us in different ways (I added the last part).
 
Last edited:
You literally cannot argue that Bernie doesn't lean that direction, so you run around it to talk about other things, or try to use other terms you can describe it with.

The direction he leans is a matter of perspective. If you are a communist then Bernie leans towards being a small government capitalist.
 
The direction he leans is a matter of perspective. If you are a communist then Bernie leans towards being a small government capitalist.
No. A Matter of Perspective and a matter of reality are not always the same thing. If there is a line and the extreme is purple and the other extreme is green, the green may look at someone in between and say you're closer to purple then I am, that's perspective, but that's not the argument. However, if we are all on this line between purple and green and you are leaning one way or another the perspective doesn't really matter. You're either Purple or Green in the middle or closer to one then the other. Even with a matter of perspective in mind, The purple and green can see who is closer to their point in space and who isn't.
 
Communism and socialism aren't the same thing. Communism is an extreme form of socialism...it's like saying that if you believe in any amount of capitalism, you're a corporatist (a belief that the state should be controlled by large private entities) or you lean heavily in that direction. Virtually every nation these days is a mixture of socialism and capitalism, the US included. The debate isn't over capitalism versus socialism, it's what the precise mixture of the two should be. So yes, Sanders believes the US should have more socialism in its mix than it currently does, but it's silly to say that due to that, he's a communist. Saying that because he wants to nationalize the health insurance industry he's a communist is like saying that anyone who's okay with the nationalized educational system that we currently have is a communist (and before anyone points out that there are private schools, Medicare already allows for private health insurance--often called supplementary--to cover things that either Medicare doesn't or for things that you'd rather not go through Medicare for).

Sanders labels himself a Democratic Socialist because he believes we should socialize more costs that poorer people struggle with. That's a far, far cry from communism and giving government control over all the means of production. That should be obvious.
 
Communism and socialism aren't the same thing. Communism is an extreme form of socialism...it's like saying that if you believe in any amount of capitalism, you're a corporatist (a belief that the state should be controlled by large private entities) or you lean heavily in that direction. Virtually every nation these days is a mixture of socialism and capitalism, the US included. The debate isn't over capitalism versus socialism, it's what the precise mixture of the two should be. So yes, Sanders believes the US should have more socialism in its mix than it currently does, but it's silly to say that due to that, he's a communist. Saying that because he wants to nationalize the health insurance industry he's a communist is like saying that anyone who's okay with the nationalized educational system that we currently have is a communist (and before anyone points out that there are private schools, Medicare already allows for private health insurance--often called supplementary--to cover things that either Medicare doesn't or for things that you'd rather not go through Medicare for).

Sanders labels himself a Democratic Socialist because he believes we should socialize more costs that poorer people struggle with. That's a far, far cry from communism and giving government control over all the means of production. That should be obvious.
I didn't say he was a communist though, I said his political leanings make him closer to that then other candidates, but Bernie people can't seem to admit that, and I also noted that communism believes itself to be the truest form of socialism.
So if one side can get away with the argument that capitalism is a gateway to corporatist movements, then the reverse argument can be implied. The argument is made too, that all the right is basically corporatist movements beholden to big business and all that. So sure by the very definition of a "communist" no Bernie isn't one, but if the argument is good for one side it's good for the other too.
 
I didn't say he was a communist though, I said his political leanings make him closer to that then other candidates, but Bernie people can't seem to admit that, and I also noted that communism believes itself to be the truest form of socialism.
So if one side can get away with the argument that capitalism is a gateway to corporatist movements, then the reverse argument can be implied. The argument is made too, that all the right is basically corporatist movements beholden to big business and all that. So sure by the very definition of a "communist" no Bernie isn't one, but if the argument is good for one side it's good for the other too.

You argument seems to be that he is basically a communist, or close enough to a communist or a purple green guy. I think the point most the rest of us are making is that purple and green are not the same colors
 
Back
Top