Free Agent Chinanu Onuaku, Cameron Oliver, Gary Payton II agree to Training Camp Deals with Portland

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Boob-No-More said:
It's split about half and half. But, name another team that has so many young big men on their current roster that also has a bad track record of developing young big men?

Again, what's the downside? Are you happy with the way our big men have developed?

BNM
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I’m happy with how Nurkic and Collins have developed, our only two bigs worth a shit.
 
Scalma said:
Yeah Thorton did wonders with Papagiannis. Or wait, maybe Papagiannis just wasn’t good enough on his own?
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So, the fact that Papagiannis sucks completely negates the work Thorton did with Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph? And, it's not just about elevating the play of your stars, it' about turning guys like Kosta Koufas, Maresse Speights and Willie Cauley-Stein into solid contributors.

BNM
 
Scalma said:
I’m happy with how Nurkic and Collins have developed, our only two bigs worth a shit.
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Really? I was disappointed with Nurk most of last year, it wasn’t til February or so he seemed to get things together. Now I do think there’s something to he had too adjust to losing weight.

Collins, I have no idea... The talent seems to be there, his bbiq seems good, but I need to see a lot more.
 
Scalma said:
I’m happy with how Nurkic and Collins have developed, our only two bigs worth a shit.
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I'm not. Nurk is still a work in progress an Collins is totally lost on offense. They both need help to reach their potential and them reaching their potential is the key to success for this franchise. Why not at least try to get them that help? Again, what's the downside? You keep avoiding that question. So, I keep asking it.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
I'm not. Nurk is still a work in progress an Collins is totally lost on offense. They both need help to reach their potential and them reaching their potential is the key to success for this franchise. Why not at least try to get them that help? Again, what's the downside? You keep avoiding that question. So, I keep asking it.

BNM
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You’re asking me what’s the downside, but I’m having a hard time seeing the upside. There’s no evidence that hiring a “proven” big man coach would actually make our bigs that much better.

Instead of worrying about coaching, we should be worried about getting better talent. I like our coaching staff. I think they’re a big reason Portland has overachieved, relative to the roster, the past couple of years. It’s not just Dame.
 
Scalma said:
You’re asking me what’s the downside, but I’m having a hard time seeing the upside. There’s no evidence that hiring a “proven” big man coach would actually make our bigs that much better.

Instead of worrying about coaching, we should be worried about getting better talent. I like our coaching staff. I think they’re a big reason Portland has overachieved, relative to the roster, the past couple of years. It’s not just Dame.
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Why can’t we do both though? Have a great coaching staff for player development and try to get the best talent.
 
Haven’t read much of this thread yet but isn’t onuaku the guy out of those three we would want to give a chance if any? Maybe a two way contract?
 
Bigs can also afford to hire the best guys in the biz in the offseason....Meyers actually has done that since last season and he did improve last season. It's not like these guys are cash poor college kids. Dwight Howard hired Sheed one offseason to work with him...the Lopez bros hired Alajuwan to work with them..if they want to be the best, they all can pay for some off season clinics. CJ hired Steve Nash a couple of summers ago for some pointers.
 
riverman said:
Bigs can also afford to hire the best guys in the biz in the offseason....Meyers actually has done that since last season and he did improve last season. It's not like these guys are cash poor college kids. Dwight Howard hired Sheed one offseason to work with him...the Lopez bros hired Alajuwan to work with them..if they want to be the best, they all can pay for some off season clinics.
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I guess my thinking is this, 7 foot tall people see things differently, have to move differently and ultimately are much different as athletes then even 6 foot 6 guys. I’ve heard bigs say, that having a coach the same size as you helps a lot because they have a much better understanding of how you move, of what it takes for you to be in the right positions. They see the same things you see. It’s a matter of perspective. Hiring a guy who’s a big, who has experience, and hopefully understands what the big guys need to do, well I think he can help developing players by having the experience to say hey, this move won’t work like this, and explain to them how to make it work.

It’s similar to a guard getting advice or coaching from other guards.

Does it mean that every 7 footer that comes through will get better? No. I do think it really helps their chances to develop good habits, to have a mentor that see’s the world from way up there as opposed to down here...

I see how it could help, even though it may not. I don’t see how it hurts them though. At worst its a net 0, with a chance of a net positive.
 
Scalma said:
You’re asking me what’s the downside, but I’m having a hard time seeing the upside. There’s no evidence that hiring a “proven” big man coach would actually make our bigs that much better.

Instead of worrying about coaching, we should be worried about getting better talent. I like our coaching staff. I think they’re a big reason Portland has overachieved, relative to the roster, the past couple of years. It’s not just Dame.
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What I see is that our coaching staff has done a GREAT job developing guards. You're absolutely right, it's not just Dame. It's also C.J., but what's even more impressive is turning 2nd round picks like Crabbe and Connaughton into rotation players. I'm 100% confident in their ability to develop guys like Baldwin, Simons and Trent Jr., but I have zero confidence in their ability to get the most out of Nurk and Collins.

Yes, of course, get better talent when you can, but right now we have what we have and need to make the most out of it. Kim Hughes is gone, but ask Chris Kaman what Hughes did for him. Ask Marc Gasol, what Bob Thorton did for him. Kevin McHale turned Kevin Love into an all star. With so much of our future riding on the development of Nurk and Collins, and our past failures to turn lottery picks like Meyers and Vonleh into significant contributors, I just don't understand why we aren't pulling out all stops to get the best big man coach on the planet. Hell, even if it's just to work on their offense. Nurk and Collins seem to be ahead of the curve defensively, but both still have so much untapped potential on the offensive end, and we need strong 2-way players up front to compliment Dame and C.J.

And, we're not SAS. It's pointless to compare our situation to ours. When was the last time SAS took a 19-year old big man in the lottery? Tim Duncan was a 4-year starter in college, the consensus No. 1 pick and one of the most fundamentally sound players to ever join the NBA. And he joined David Robinson, a 24 year old rookie who was also a consensus No. 1 pick with 4 years of college experience. Their current big men are 33-year old LaMarcus Aldridge and 38-year old Pau Gasol. And, whatever system they are using has proven successful for them. But,we're not them. We don't have their personnel, their coaching, or their track record of success. If we're trying to be them, it's not working. So, try something new. MEM became a legit contender when they had Bob Thornton coaching their big men - after they traded Pau Gasol in the prime of his career and were supposed to be rebuilding. Coincidence? Perhaps, but different approaches work for different situations. There are plenty of examples of teams with a proven big man coach getting successful results (Thornton in MEM, Hughes in both DEN and LAC), just like there are examples, like SAS being successful with out one.

I'm not saying fire anyone we have, just supplement them. Let the current staff continue to do what they do best, but bring in someone to help our young bigs develop into above average offensive players. Collins has the tools, but is a LONG way from putting it all together. Get him some help. He doesn't have a veteran big man to mentor him, and we have no roster spot and no cap room to get him one. Perfect. Hire a big man coach, that doesn't take up a roster spot or count against the salary cap to be his mentor.

Who is the best man for the job? Not my call. That's why Paul Allen employs an entire staff of Vulcans. Assign them to identify the best 2 or 3 candidates, and then pick the best man for the job and make him an offer he can't refuse. I'd start by checking out guys like Kevin McHale, Bill Laimbeer, Juwan Howard and Bob Thornton and take it from there.

BNM
 
dviss1 said:
Evan Turner is a so so defender and his D is very overrated in this forum.

I don't think we lose much at all having him gone.
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Yep, give his minutes at the 3 Moe and Chief and his minutes everywhere else to Baldwin. We loose nothing defensively and while none of those guys are Kyle Korver, they all shoot better than Turner.

The problem is, who wants him and what will it cost us to dump him?

BNM
 
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dviss1 said:
Evan Turner is a so so defender and his D is very overrated in this forum.

I don't think we lose much at all having him gone.
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This made me look up numbers, just for fun. Our top 5 defenders last season, according to opposing teams ORTG. (I know this is lineup dependent, chill.)

1. Swanigan
2. Baldwin
3. Nurkic
4. Vonleh
5. Lillard

Swanigan was a surprise. The rest seemed about right. Leonard graded out as the worst, by far, which also seems on point.
 
Boob-No-More said:
Yep, give his minutes at the 3 Moe and Chief and his minutes everywhere else to Baldwin. We loose nothing defensively and while none of those guys are Kyle Korver, they all shoot better than Turner.

The problem is, who wants him and what will it cost us to dump him?

BNM
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We need Cheif playing frontcourt minutes since were thin there. Give his minutes to Trent.
 
What we should do is invite two more guys to training camp and let the 5 of these guys battle it out for the two two way spots.
 
Scalma said:
This made me look up numbers, just for fun. Our top 5 defenders last season, according to opposing teams ORTG. (I know this is lineup dependent, chill.)

1. Swanigan
2. Baldwin
3. Nurkic
4. Vonleh
5. Lillard

Swanigan was a surprise. The rest seemed about right. Leonard graded out as the worst, by far, which also seems on point.
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I think Swanigan is a different type of defender. I noticed that in summer league. He isn't the dramatic shot blocker, but he does take up a lot of space and the defense seems to work well when he is on the court. Might be he is just solid in being at the right place at the right time.
 
Reep said:
I think Swanigan is a different type of defender. I noticed that in summer league. He isn't the dramatic shot blocker, but he does take up a lot of space and the defense seems to work well when he is on the court. Might be he is just solid in being at the right place at the right time.
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I think his feet are too slow to switch on pnr’s If he’s out on the perimeter on defense that probably won’t work out well. I think he can be a decent presence on the interior though. Big frame, may not alter a ton of shots but guys may think twice about attacking him. He also seems to have that good basketball iq, knowing where to be on defense is a big deal.
 
James lamphear said:
Swanigan has problems with perimeter defense due to slow feet.
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So do 90% of the other PFs in he league.

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I've wondered but been to lazy to look it up...how much does a player signed to training camp get paid?
 
I’m with BNM on this one. I don’t see the harm of hiring a really good coach for our young bigs. I liken it to hiring a really good offensive line coach, is it flashy and going to make an immediate measurable impact? Probably not, but why wouldn’t you want that coach? We know for a fact we’re not seeing any progress from our bigs, so what can it really hurt other than PA’s bottom line?

Bigs have different footwork, reads, body positioning than guards. They are successful in different ways and using different strategies m. It’s only reasonable to think a dedicated assistant is required for those back to basket positions. Especially if we continue to be so adverse to veterans on the roster.
 
riverman said:
I've wondered but been to lazy to look it up...how much does a player signed to training camp get paid?
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$0 plus free room and board at Mrs. HCP's bed and breakfast
 
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