Dame in Milwaukee thread (6 Viewers)

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Maybe Mikwaukee didn't wanna win because they prefer to face Indiana instead of Philly or Miami in Rd 1

Boston v Philly Miami Chicago Atlanta
New York v Philly Miami
Milwaukee v Indiana
Cleveland v Orlando
 
inconceivable said:
Maybe Mikwaukee didn't wanna win because they prefer to face Indiana instead of Philly or Miami in Rd 1

Boston v Philly Miami Chicago Atlanta
New York v Philly Miami
Milwaukee v Indiana
Cleveland v Orlando
Click to expand...

Indiana won 4 of the 5 times they met this year.
 
Is Jrue more valuable on the court than Dame straight up?

Seeing the historic season by Boston, finals Jrue won, Jrue sweeping Dame when on the Pelicans, not to mention the difficulty we always had to build a balanced nonISO/decent defense squad with Dame.... just makes me wonder.

Very glad we control those 3 years of Bucks drafts.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Is Jrue more valuable on the court than Dame straight up?

Seeing the historic season by Boston, finals Jrue won, Jrue sweeping Dame when on the Pelicans, not to mention the difficulty we always had to build a balanced nonISO/decent defense squad with Dame.... just makes me wonder.

Very glad we control those 3 years of Bucks drafts.
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I don't think you are putting close to enough weight into team composition around the two guys you are comparing. Is fucking Draymond Green more valuable on the court than Dame because the teams he's been on have been so much better and won so many titles??? No.
 
blazerkor said:
I don't think you are putting close to enough weight into team composition around the two guys you are comparing. Is fucking Draymond Green more valuable on the court than Dame because the teams he's been on have been so much better and won so many titles??? No.
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Well it's probably much easier to compose a team around a two way efficient player that doesn't need the ball to be effective.

Lots of CJ/Ant/etc style players you could pair well with Jrue... But with Dame we've seen it's much harder to make that a good duo.

Have a pretty direct way to compare the two as they had very similar supporting casts in Milwaukee.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Well it's probably much easier to compose a team around a two way efficient player that doesn't need the ball to be effective.

Lots of CJ/Ant/etc style players you could pair well with Jrue... But with Dame we've seen it's much harder to make that a good duo.

Have a pretty direct way to compare the two as they had very similar supporting casts in Milwaukee.
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Not the same coaches though. Bud is better than Doc and way better than Griffin. I also think people are making too big of a deal about this season. Shit is getting figured out with the Bucks, I think they'll be a lot better next season.
 
if Lillard's team wins in 1st round, he will be leaps & bounds over anything the Blazers could muster.
 
Whyachi said:
if Lillard's team wins in 1st round, he will be leaps & bounds over anything the Blazers could muster.
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and if the Bucks lose in the 1st round they also wasted another year of his prime.
 
inconceivable said:
Maybe Mikwaukee didn't wanna win because they prefer to face Indiana instead of Philly or Miami in Rd 1

Boston v Philly Miami Chicago Atlanta
New York v Philly Miami
Milwaukee v Indiana
Cleveland v Orlando
Click to expand...
I just posted something much the same on another thread. That loss seemed to be by design.
 
Trailblazers76 said:
DAMIAN LILLARD is an absolute train wreck defensively (youtube.com)

This is hard to watch as a big fan of Dame, but it was too funny to not share.
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Honestly if you watch this (and there were hundreds of these in PDX too) then watch Jrue it's hard to not at least wonder if the Bucks would be better swapping those two. Not to mention the Bucks now have this juggernaut they have to beat WITH Jrue.

As pessimistic as I am about the Blazers current roster, super glad we got the trade haul we did when we did.
 
inconceivable said:
Maybe Mikwaukee didn't wanna win because they prefer to face Indiana instead of Philly or Miami in Rd 1

Boston v Philly Miami Chicago Atlanta
New York v Philly Miami
Milwaukee v Indiana
Cleveland v Orlando
Click to expand...
Then why didn't they sit Dame? It's not like the League ever does anything to stop that.
 
Wait, Dame is bad at defense??
 
Dame is bad at defense....but great at offense; great enough to offset his defense in a major way. BPM is a pretty solid scale for gauging offense/defense offsets

there has been chatter about Jrue Holiday and his great defense in this thread. So, how do BPM and other gauges weight the career comparison between Dame & Jrue?

offensive BPM: Dame +5.5....Jrue +1.5
defensive BPM: Dame -0.9....Jrue +0.1
Net BPM: Dame +4.7....Jrue +1.7

Winshares/48: Dame .174....Jrue .103
Winshares: Dame 110.8....Jrue 69.4
VORP: Dame 51.3....Jrue 29.8

obviously, winshares and VORP are cumulative stats; the more games played adds to the marks. Jrue has played about 130 more games than Dame. And I'd think it's fair to say that Jrue has had a massive advantage in the type of defenders he has played with

so yeah, Dame is bad at defense; so was Nash; so is Curry. This is a Dame thread and there appears to be a lot of animus against Dame from some posters here so I accept there will be people shitting on him for his defense

ST was talking earlier about what it would have looked like pairing Jrue with CJ or Ant. What it would have looked like is not nearly as good as if Dame had been paired with Jrue...like Curry has been welded to Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Durant
 
wizenheimer said:
Dame is bad at defense....but great at offense; great enough to offset his defense in a major way. BPM is a pretty solid scale for gauging offense/defense offsets

there has been chatter about Jrue Holiday and his great defense in this thread. So, how do BPM and other gauges weight the career comparison between Dame & Jrue?

offensive BPM: Dame +5.5....Jrue +1.5
defensive BPM: Dame -0.9....Jrue +0.1
Net BPM: Dame +4.7....Jrue +1.7

Winshares/48: Dame .174....Jrue .103
Winshares: Dame 110.8....Jrue 69.4
VORP: Dame 51.3....Jrue 29.8

obviously, winshares and VORP are cumulative stats; the more games played adds to the marks. Jrue has played about 130 more games than Dame. And I'd think it's fair to say that Jrue has had a massive advantage in the type of defenders he has played with

so yeah, Dame is bad at defense; so was Nash; so is Curry. This is a Dame thread and there appears to be a lot of animus against Dame from some posters here so I accept there will be people shitting on him for his defense

ST was talking earlier about what it would have looked like pairing Jrue with CJ or Ant. What it would have looked like is not nearly as good as if Dame had been paired with Jrue...like Curry has been welded to Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Durant
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Well, there's one thing to consider. Dame has been the primary focal point of the offense for most of his career. That was never Jrue's role. Dame played on a number of mediocre teams where he was pretty much it on offense. Jrue won a ring with Milwaukee. Dame isn't really showing that he can fit in on a championship team. He was just a different player back on those LMA teams.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Well, there's one thing to consider. Dame has been the primary focal point of the offense for most of his career. That was never Jrue's role. Dame played on a number of mediocre teams where he was pretty much it on offense. Jrue won a ring with Milwaukee. Dame isn't really showing that he can fit in on a championship team. He was just a different player back on those LMA teams.
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but that's my point, don't you see?

I'm talking value, and in the NBA with it's 3 point line and it's rules, the positive value of his offense is much greater than the negative value of his defense. Dame has been the focal point of the offenses because he has top-10 offensive talent; he earned that usage rate. It wasn't just circumstance
 
wizenheimer said:
but that's my point, don't you see?

I'm talking value, and in the NBA with it's 3 point line and it's rules, the positive value of his offense is much greater than the negative value of his defense. Dame has been the focal point of the offenses because he has top-10 offensive talent; he earned that usage rate. It wasn't just circumstance
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Yes, but I think what he has shown this year is that he's still only really effective when he's the first option. When Giannis isn't there, he reverts back to old Dame and he looks great. Maybe it's how the Bucks are using him. I don't know. I haven't watched much Milwaukee games this season. I'm just saying that there's something to be said for a player that can still produce within a system. I'm not really seeing that with Dame. Maybe he's sulking. Maybe it's all the stuff happening off the court.
 
wizenheimer said:
but that's my point, don't you see?

I'm talking value, and in the NBA with it's 3 point line and it's rules, the positive value of his offense is much greater than the negative value of his defense. Dame has been the focal point of the offenses because he has top-10 offensive talent; he earned that usage rate. It wasn't just circumstance
Click to expand...

Rhetorical question... Can you break down those stats by regular season vs playoffs, and just as importantly for regular season, games against say top-4 seeds vs lower seeds and non-playoff teams? The latter being to get a sense how how Dame and Jrue's BPMs impact more meaningful games. My sense is, offensive BPM is more important in games that don't matter, and defensive BPM more so in games that do. So, a simple averaging of the two misses the true importance.
 
handiman said:
Rhetorical question... Can you break down those stats by regular season vs playoffs, and just as importantly for regular season, games against say top-4 seeds vs lower seeds and non-playoff teams? The latter being to get a sense how how Dame and Jrue's BPMs impact more meaningful games. My sense is, offensive BPM is more important in games that don't matter, and defensive BPM more so in games that do. So, a simple averaging of the two misses the true importance.
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it's closer; Dame's playoff BPM is 4.3; Holiday's is 2.8

Dame's best is 12.2; Holiday's is 5.5.
 
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wizenheimer said:
it's closer; Dame's playoff BPM is 4.3; Holiday's is 2.8
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Assuming that's Net BPM, that's a lot closer, going from a 2.8:1 ratio to 1.5:1 ratio. That supports two things that I suspected: 1) playoffs favor the defensive side of the statistic, and 2) defense is being very underrated still by looking at Net as just summation rather than some sort of weighted scale.
 
handiman said:
Assuming that's Net BPM, that's a lot closer, going from a 2.8:1 ratio to 1.5:1 ratio. That supports two things that I suspected: 1) playoffs favor the defensive side of the statistic, and 2) defense is being very underrated still by looking at Net as just summation rather than some sort of weighted scale.
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I'd say it's well understood that defense is better and a higher priority in the playoffs. Teams can construct game plans for one opponent in a series

my point was that crapping on Dame for his defense tends to ignore the reality his offensive strengths far outweigh his defensive weaknesses. Dame has been a top-10 player in the NBA because of his offense. Holiday has never been top-10 because of his defense
 
wizenheimer said:
but that's my point, don't you see?

I'm talking value, and in the NBA with it's 3 point line and it's rules, the positive value of his offense is much greater than the negative value of his defense. Dame has been the focal point of the offenses because he has top-10 offensive talent; he earned that usage rate. It wasn't just circumstance
Click to expand...
Depends what you mean by "value"... Does Dame quickly raise a bad team to above average but then his effectiveness is capped since he can't as easily fit into an elite contender? While Jrue doesn't elevate a bad team near as much - he can be a key to elevate a good team to greatness.

If Jrue elevates more teams to a championship isn't that ultimately more valuable?
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Depends what you mean by "value"... Does Dame quickly raise a bad team to above average but then his effectiveness is capped since he can't as easily fit into an elite contender? While Jrue doesn't elevate a bad team near as much - he can be a key to elevate a good team to greatness.

If Jrue elevates more teams to a championship isn't that ultimately more valuable?
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Exactly. That's why playoff and big regular season game success is a far more significant measuring stick, IMO.
 
Let’s see how this plays out in the postseason. Never seen Dame with this good a roster while not hurt. The only time he has had this much talent around him was the Olympics and he was obviously injured during that time.
 
kjironman1 said:
Let’s see how this plays out in the postseason. Never seen Dame with this good a roster while not hurt. The only time he has had this much talent around him was the Olympics and he was obviously injured during that time.
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You think the Bucks roster without Giannis is that talented?
 
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