Dame injury

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wizenheimer said:
Great?

for players with 500 minutes or more, CJ ranks:

115th in PER
227th in TS%
177th in eFG%
289th in FT Rate
96th in assist rate
234th in winshares/48
196th in BPM

CJ is in the 45th percentile in isolation (55% of the league is better); the 64th percentile in PnR; the 43rd percentile in hand-off; and the 59th percentile in transition. In other words, he sucks at one-on-one and scoring unassisted baskets. But that's 63% of his offense

I'd say a great players will just about crack the top-100 in nearly all those stats; and top-30 in some if not several. Hell, I'd thing a good player would show up in the top-100 in a few of those. But not CJ

CJ is excellent at catch & shoot and very good at spot up. But he only attempts about 5 of his 19 FGA/game in the only two types of shots he's good at

think about this: CJ in 13th in the NBA is FGA/game; again, 13th....but he's 227th in TS%, 177th in eFG%, and 289th in FT rate. That's not great, that's just fucked up
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Is that this season only? If so I’d like to see a few more years prior.
 
wizenheimer said:
I doubt it gets you as much as some think, not with CJ's contract. Maybe somebody like Tobias Harris, but probably not, and Harris's contract is just as ugly. He's better than CJ though
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He's not better than CJ enough with this crap. He "might" be on the same level as him, but there's a reason he was dumped from so many teams.
 
Neil O. Shyster said:
It’s not hate... it’s that when you get paid big money like CJ is then you are expected to live up to the contract or else the team has no chance. The most frustrating part as a fan is we have seen CJ’s limitations and lack of growth and Neil doubles down with an extension a year before he had to. Now we are stuck with no flexibility again in Dames last 4 good years... it’s like the 2016 summer all over again.
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You live in a world where NBA players are paid according to their true value? You must be from another dimension!

Tell me, did the Blazers match the Wolves' Batum offer in your world?
 
Blazers Roy said:
He's not better than CJ enough with this crap. He "might" be on the same level as him, but there's a reason he was dumped from so many teams.
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I think the reason he was "dumped" is because other GM's don't overrate their non-all-star talent half as much as Olshey overrates CJ; also they aren't so fearful of taking risks
 
wizenheimer said:
I think the reason he was "dumped" is because other GM's don't overrate their non-all-star talent half as much as Olshey overrates CJ; also they aren't so fearful of taking risks
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Oh yea, those GMs over at Orlando and Detroit are really careful with their money.

Their talent evaluation and decision making is also top notch. Wish Olshey could learn something from them.
 
Blazers Roy said:
Oh yea, those GMs over at Orlando and Detroit are really careful with their money.

Their talent evaluation and decision making is also top notch. Wish Olshey could learn something from them.
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you just undercut your argument
 
wizenheimer said:
you just undercut your argument
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You said Harris is better than CJ and then you said he was dumped because other "GMs don't overrate their non-all-star talent half as much as Olshey overrates CJ; also they aren't so fearful of taking risks".

How is that not undercutting your own argument? You basically admit Harris presents the same problem as CJ, only with the fact he's been playing in the weak Eastern conference for most of his career.

Your trap wasnt so clever either:bored:
 
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Anyone claiming the Blazers shouldn’t push for the Playoffs doesn’t realize that us in the 8 seed = dangerous, and there’s not a team in the West who wants to see that!
 
Blazers Roy said:
You said Harris is better than CJ and then you said he was dumped because other "GMs don't overrate their non-all-star talent half as much as Olshey overrates CJ; also they aren't so fearful of taking risks".

How is that not undercutting your own argument? You basically admit Harris presents the same problem as CJ, only with the fact he's been playing in the weak Eastern conference for most of his career.
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you said Harris was "dumped" by several teams, basically saying that those teams were competent in their evaluations when they traded Harris

when I implied they traded Harris because they assigned fair value to Harris, unlike Olshey with CJ...you came right back and said two of the teams that traded Harris were incompetent.

if those teams are incompetent, then it's entirely possible they screwed up their evaluations by trading Harris

by the way, the pistons traded Harris, plus Bradley to the Clippers for Blake Griffin. A couple years later, the Clippers traded Harris for Landrey Shamet, Mike Muscala, Philly's lottery protected 1st from 2020-2022, Miami's unprotected 1st from 2021, and two 2nd round picks. I think those Harris trades are the opposite of "dumping"
 
10 of our next 14 games are at home and mostly against crappy teams. Let's rest up and dominate. CJ/Trent/Simons rotation can get this done.
 
Lillard was supposed to perform this weekend. Anyone know when that was supposed to be? and is it canceled?
 
wizenheimer said:
you said Harris was "dumped" by several teams
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That's right.

, basically saying that those teams were competent in their evaluations when they traded Harris
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No i didn't. I said there's a reason he was dumped, i didn't say that was the reason.
You said Harris is better than CJ. Well, true all-stars who are healthy don't get traded a lot in this league.

Stop being such a tryhard smart guy. I respect your diligence in some debates, but that was a dumb and obvious trap.
 
Blazers Roy said:
That's right.



No i didn't. I said there's a reason he was dumped, i didn't say that was the reason.
You said Harris is better than CJ. Well, true all-stars who are healthy don't get traded a lot in this league.

Stop being such a tryhard smart guy. I respect your diligence in some debates, but that was a dumb and obvious trap.
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I don't tryhard to be smart, I know it's wasted effort

and I'm not buying the "dumping" thing....it's obvious why you used that particular word. And where does "true all-star" come into a debate about Harris and CJ? Neither has ever been one and the chances either will ever be one is slim to none. They are complementary players and both have ugly contracts, although Harris has the uglier one

as far as Harris being better than CJ, yeah I believe that but I'll grant it's debatable. I definitely think Harris would be a better fit on Portland than CJ as long as Dame is here. The Dame/CJ back court has plateaued, and CJ's contract is a millstone dragging down flexibility. Contracts considered, I don't want either to be a Blazer
 
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wizenheimer said:
I don't tryhard to be smart, I know it's wasted effort

and I'm not buying the "dumping" thing....it's obvious why you used that particular word. And where does "true all-star" come into a debate about Harris and CJ? Neither has ever been one and the chances either will ever be one is slim to none. They are complementary players and both have ugly contracts, although Harris has the uglier one

as far as Harris being better than CJ, yeah I believe that but I'll grant it's debatable. I definitely think Harris would be a better fit on Portland than CJ as long as Dame is here. The Dame/CJ back court has plateaued, and CJ's contract is a millstone dragging down flexibility. Contracts considered, I don't want either to be a Blazer
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Slim to none? Harris was nearly an All Star last year as a Clipper. If Blazers get healthy and are on pace to win 55+ next year, CJ could absolutely make the All Star team. I think coaches respect him. I remember how befuddled the Grizzlies coach was in 2015 playoffs. He was like “we have a CJ problem.”

Mario Hezonja’s chance is slim to none. Not CJ’s.
 
KSF-ERIC said:
Slim to none? Harris was nearly an All Star last year as a Clipper. If Blazers get healthy and are on pace to win 55+ next year, CJ could absolutely make the All Star team. I think coaches respect him. I remember how befuddled the Grizzlies coach was in 2015 playoffs. He was like “we have a CJ problem.”

Mario Hezonja’s chance is slim to none. Not CJ’s.
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Cj will never be an All Star
 
KSF-ERIC said:
Slim to none? Harris was nearly an All Star last year as a Clipper. If Blazers get healthy and are on pace to win 55+ next year, CJ could absolutely make the All Star team. I think coaches respect him. I remember how befuddled the Grizzlies coach was in 2015 playoffs. He was like “we have a CJ problem.”
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yeah right.... Lionell Hollins was so befuddled he didn't change his defense one iota and tilt it toward CJ even though CJ was scoring well. He stuck to attacking Dame and Pushing Aldridge further outside...and Memphis won the series easily. And that was 5 years ago

don't confuse lip service with respect. Teams respect Dame and focus their defenses on him leaving CJ single covered all the time. The next time a defense's primary game plan if focused on CJ will be either the first time or when Dame isn't playing. When teams come in and don't double and trap Dame because CJ is on the floor....which sure as hell hasn't been the case in the payoffs....is when I'll believe CJ is all-star material

Dame
Curry
Klay
Harden
Westbrook
Doncic
Booker
Mitchell

Holiday
Morant
Murray
Paul
Russell
Derozan

CJ might belong in that 2nd group but he sure isn't going to be on top of it. He's not in the class of those first 8 players and only 5 go to the all-star game

I mean, for chrissakes, Dame had an opportunity to advocate CJ for the all-star game and he went with Booker
 
I’m worried about Dame. I hope he doesn’t stay out for a while, but I know he needs some rest.
 
SIeepwalker said:
If CJ is transferred to an eastern conference team where he is the first option, I think he will definitely be an all star
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EC guards definitely or likely better than CJ:

Kemba Walker
Kyrie Irving
Bradley Beal
Jimmy Butler
Trae Young
Khris Middleton
Victor Oladipo
Ben Simmons
Zach Lavine

guards around CJ's level:

Eric Bledsoe
Kyle Lowry (6 time all-star)
Fred VanVleet
Malcolm Brogdon
Goran Dragic
Jaylen Brown

young guns who could step up:

Devonte Graham
Luke Kennard
Duncan Robinson
Collin Sexton
Kendrick Nunn

I don't know why people always assume it's an easy-peasy path to the all-star game for guards in the EC. There may not be guards with the super-star talent of Harden, Curry, and Dame, over there, but there are a bunch of really good guards that are better than CJ, some miles better

I know the thinking is that CJ will go to the East and blossom....at 29 or 30 years old, lol. But CJ won't be leaving his flaws and weaknesses behind, they will go with him. He's simply not 1st option material. If he was he'd be a hell of a lot better than the 45% percentile in isolation; the 64th percentile in PnR; and the 59th percentile in isolation. He'd rank a damn sight higher than 115th in PER, 227th in TS%, 234th in winshares/48, & 196th in BPM

he's accomplished that kind of average production & efficiency while being single-covered and drafting off of all the defensive attention Dame gets. If he was suddenly the #1 option, game in and game out, he'd be the primary focus of opposing defenses. Opponents would game-plan for CJ's strengths and weaknesses, and that is something he's never faced. If any team trades for CJ thinking he'll be their franchise player, the management is stupid and that team will very likely be losing most of it's games, and we know that makes the path to an all-star even more difficult

I mean, look at the EC and identify which teams would make CJ the #1 guy at 31M a year. Milwaukee wouldn't; Boston and Toronto wouldn't; Indiana wouldn't; Philly & Miami wouldn't. Even a bunch of the losers wouldn't like Washington or Atlanta

and CJ isn't going to be voted in by the fans so it would have to be coaches, and then, the factor of defense actually enters into the thinking unless a player is a bonafide star like Dame or Curry

I know some people are going to nit-pick the list I made and come up with reasons why CJ is better than some of those players like Lavine or VanVleet or Brown, but you should at least compare their numbers before you do
 

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wizenheimer said:
EC guards definitely or likely better than CJ:

Kemba Walker
Kyrie Irving
Bradley Beal
Jimmy Butler
Trae Young
Khris Middleton
Victor Oladipo
Ben Simmons
Zach Lavine

guards around CJ's level:

Eric Bledsoe
Kyle Lowry (6 time all-star)
Fred VanVleet
Malcolm Brogdon
Goran Dragic
Jaylen Brown

young guns who could step up:

Devonte Graham
Luke Kennard
Duncan Robinson
Collin Sexton
Kendrick Nunn

I don't know why people always assume it's an easy-peasy path to the all-star game for guards in the EC. There may not be guards with the super-star talent of Harden, Curry, and Dame, over there, but there are a bunch of really good guards that are better than CJ, some miles better

I know the thinking is that CJ will go to the East and blossom....at 29 or 30 years old, lol. But CJ won't be leaving his flaws and weaknesses behind, they will go with him. He's simply not 1st option material. If he was he'd be a hell of a lot better than the 45% percentile in isolation; the 64th percentile in PnR; and the 59th percentile in isolation. He'd rank a damn sight higher than 115th in PER, 227th in TS%, 234th in winshares/48, & 196th in BPM

he's accomplished that kind of average production & efficiency while being single-covered and drafting off of all the defensive attention Dame gets. If he was suddenly the #1 option, game in and game out, he'd be the primary focus of opposing defenses. Opponents would game-plan for CJ's strengths and weaknesses, and that is something he's never faced. If any team trades for CJ thinking he'll be their franchise player, the management is stupid and that team will very likely be losing most of it's games, and we know that makes the path to an all-star even more difficult

I mean, look at the EC and identify which teams would make CJ the #1 guy at 31M a year. Milwaukee wouldn't; Boston and Toronto wouldn't; Indiana wouldn't; Philly & Miami wouldn't. Even a bunch of the losers wouldn't like Washington or Atlanta

and CJ isn't going to be voted in by the fans so it would have to be coaches, and then, the factor of defense actually enters into the thinking unless a player is a bonafide star like Dame or Curry

I know some people are going to nit-pick the list I made and come up with reasons why CJ is better than some of those players like Lavine or VanVleet or Brown, but you should at least compare their numbers before you do
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I'm not going to argue either way on CJ, but I do think that you should at least acknowledge that playing with Dame impacts CJ's role and his numbers. This is from a couple of years ago and I have no idea what more up to date stats would show, but in 2017 CJ scored 10 more points per game and shot at a higher percentage in games where he played and Dame was out due to injury or illness.

https://www.statmuse.com/stories/4afb15c4-45e4-44eb-9df3-1806e7ca2bb8
 
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