Debate in another forum ..... Roy or Rose?

[blue32]

bleh. go roy, go blazers.

 

[Minstrel]

Yes, I do. I think Rose will probably be the 5th best player in the NBA, passing up Roy, Duncan and Kobe (as he ages). The kid is phenominal as a rookie. Factoring in his age, experience in the NBA, and all that stuff I think if he reaches his ceiling (and God knows how high that is, but I think it will be very high) he will be a phenominal player. I think Roy is probably decently close to his prime, but I also think his prime will last a long time because he doesn't rely as much on his athleticism but rather his mind and skills.

I think he will definitley be better than Deron Williams. Comparing them at their respective ages isn't even close, comparing their rookie years isn't very close, comparing them with their physical gifts I think Rose also has the upper hand. And I think Roy is better than Williams (he definitely had the better year).

Hmm. Rose had a very nice rookie season, but hardly amazing. I think perceptions of Rose have thrown out of whack by his amazing playoff debut game. During the season, he was up and down and his averages were merely solid (excellent for a rookie, but not "future top-5 player" stuff IMO).

Ah well, I guess we'll see. And yes, Roy was superior to Williams this year, but I don't think they're far apart. As for Rose passing up Kobe as Kobe ages, that's probably true, but I think Durant is a superior talent to Rose and more likely to take Kobe's "spot." I also think Oden may be a better talent, but that's less certain.

 

[Da_O]

I put him in the 7-10 range.

1. Lebron
2. Wade
3. Kobe
4. Paul
5. Howard
6. Duncan
7. Roy or Nowitzki
8. Nowitski or Roy
9. Deron Williams or Tony Parker
10. Tony Parker or Deron Williams or Yao Ming

 

[Da_O]

Hmm. Rose had a very nice rookie season, but hardly amazing. I think perceptions of Rose have thrown out of whack by his amazing playoff debut game. During the season, he was up and down and his averages were merely solid (excellent for a rookie, but not "future top-5 player" stuff IMO).

Ah well, I guess we'll see. And yes, Roy was superior to Williams this year, but I don't think they're far apart. As for Rose passing up Kobe as Kobe ages, that's probably true, but I think Durant is a superior talent to Rose and more likely to take Kobe's "spot." I also think Oden may be a better talent, but that's less certain.

People need to also account for his defense. Just like Durant, Rose is below average in this area.

 

[Da_O]

Box Score Efficiency Measurements

Player Efficiency Rating (Higher is better)

1. LeBron James 31.76
2. Dwyane Wade 30.46
3. Chris Paul 30.04
4. Dwight Howard 25.44
5. Tim Duncan 24.51
6. Kobe Bryant 24.46
7. Brandon Roy 24.08

Overall Box Score Production Measurements

Win Shares (Higher is better)

1. LeBron James 19.6
2. Chris Paul 17.5
3. Dwyane Wade 14.4
5. Dwight Howard 13.9
6. Kobe Bryant 13.1
7. Brandon Roy 12.7

Value Added (Higher is better)

1. LeBron James 969.2
2. Dwyane Wade 908.1
3. Chris Paul 853.2
4. Dwight Howard 624.8
5. Kobe Bryant 616.7
6. Brandon Roy 588.4

Estimated Wins Added (Higher is better)

1. LeBron James 32.3
2. Dwyane Wade 30.3
3. Chris Paul 28.4
4. Dwight Howard 20.8
5. Kobe Bryant 20.6
6. Brandon Roy 19.6

Overall Impact Measurements


Roland Rating (Higher is better)

1. LeBron James +23.5
2. Dwyane Wade +17.9
3. Chris Paul +17.7
4. Kobe Bryant +12.6
5. Brandon Roy +12.5

No rep

 

[andalusian]

People need to also account for his defense. Just like Durant, Rose is below average in this area.

I agree - he needs to improve on defense - but he is a rookie and I still think his defense is better than Durant's.

 

[Natebishop3]

No rep

You're right. Rep inc.

Oh, and in regards to Deron Williams vs Rose, I'd probably take Rose, but Williams is the better passer.

 

[OddEnormous]

AHEM

AHEM

AHEM



Rose.

9 point 7 Turnovers 2 asst




PLEEEEASE Bulls?


PPPPUUUUULLLLLEEEEEASE can we trade players?

 

[Minstrel]

AHEM

AHEM

AHEM



Rose.

9 point 7 Turnovers 2 asst

If you look only at Rose's best games, he looks like the next Chris Paul. If you look at his averages, he looks like a very good player in the future, but definitely not a top-five player in the league.

 

[Da_O]

If you look only at Rose's best games, he looks like the next Chris Paul. If you look at his averages, he looks like a very good player in the future, but definitely not a top-five player in the league.

No offense Minstel, and I'm not calling you out or anything but you did once say Roy wasn't going to be anything special either. Now I agree, that he's not going to be a top 5 player, because those spots are pretty much sewn up until at least Kobe retires. But I do think he will be up there. He'll probably be a better scorer than either Deron or Paul but not as good a distributor.

 

[Minstrel]

No offense Minstel, and I'm not calling you out or anything but you did once say Roy wasn't going to be anything special either.

Oh my, I was wrong once. I'm so embarrassed. You're absolutely right, I'll never have an opinion again.

Now I agree, that he's not going to be a top 5 player, because those spots are pretty much sewn up until at least Kobe retires. But I do think he will be up there.

And how does that differ from my opinion?

No offense or anything, but that was a pretty stupid post. "No offense Minstrel, but you were wrong once. Now, I don't really disagree with you, but I do agree with you."

 

[Da_O]

Oh my, I was wrong once. I'm so embarrassed. You're absolutely right, I'll never have an opinion again.



And how does that differ from my opinion?

No offense or anything, but that was a pretty stupid post. "No offense Minstrel, but you were wrong once. Now, I don't really disagree with you, but I do agree with you."

What I meant was, that you're not a great talent evaluator, so you should be treated as such, I didn't want to put it that bluntly. I agreed that he wouldn't be a top five player but not to the degree you took it. You made it seem like he wouldn't even be close, which I think he will.

 

[Minstrel]

What I meant was, that you're not a great talent evaluator, so you should be treated as such.

A great talent evaluator? I doubt any of us are, which is we aren't paid to do it. How I stack up against you or others in this forum can't really be discerned from one, cherry-picked post. Employ a little logic, unless you're just trying to be pissy.

Secondly I agreed that he wouldn't be a top five player but not to the degree you took it.

I said his upside was a Deron Williams caliber player. What degree did I "take it" to?

 

[Da_O]

A great talent evaluator? I doubt any of us are, which is we aren't paid to do it. How I stack up against you or others in this forum can't really be discerned from one, cherry-picked post. Employ a little logic, unless you're just trying to be pissy.



I said his upside was a Deron Williams caliber player. What degree did I "take it" to?

Well I wasn't going to be until you decided to be first.

I edited my last post so you can see what I meant.

Anyway let's forget it, I was out of line.

 

[Minstrel]

Well I wasn't going to be until you decided to be first.

How was I? You first post to me was implicitly saying "You were wrong once, so you shouldn't be taken seriously." That's pretty silly if you really believe one incorrect position proves that, and pissy if you didn't really believe it but were using it in a vain attempt to embarrass me (it doesn't embarrass me...I screwed up, but I don't think I screw up very often).

Anyway let's forget it, I was out of line.

Fair enough. The only reason I said the above was because you said I got "pissy" first. I don't believe I did.

 

[Da_O]

How was I? You first post to me was implicitly saying "You were wrong once, so you shouldn't be taken seriously." That's pretty silly if you really believe one incorrect position proves that, and pissy if you didn't really believe it but were using it in a vain attempt to embarrass me (it doesn't embarrass me...I screwed up, but I don't think I screw up very often).


Fair enough. The only reason I said the above was because you said I got "pissy" first. I don't believe I did.

I thought you were getting pissy when you took my post the wrong way than I intended. I respect your posts and was only pointing it out as we're all wrong from time to time. Like I said I wasn't trying to call you out.

But let's forget it and just be friends and hold hands while singing campfire songs.

"kumbaya my lord"

 

[Minstrel]

I thought you were getting pissy when you took my post the wrong way than I intended. I respect your posts and was only pointing it out as we're all wrong from time to time. Like I said I wasn't trying to call you out.

But let's forget it and just be friends and hold hands while singing campfire songs.

"kumbaya my lord"

Okay! And I'm very aware I can be wrong. I don't claim that my posts are Truth. I just give my opinion.

And we don't even seem to really disagree on this. I said Rose's upside was Deron Williams. From your post, it seems like you also think so (more scoring, less distribution but similar caliber).

 

[OddEnormous]

Oh my, I was wrong once. I'm so embarrassed. You're absolutely right, I'll never have an opinion again.



And how does that differ from my opinion?

No offense or anything, but that was a pretty stupid post. "No offense Minstrel, but you were wrong once. Now, I don't really disagree with you, but I do agree with you."

Is it hard to type this much when you're so far up your own ass?

 

[Minstrel]

Is it hard to type this much when you're so far up your own ass?

How so? I thought the seeming premise of the post I responded to was rather silly.