Debate in another forum ..... Roy or Rose?

[alex42083]

I wonder if Blazer fans are being consistent . . . the rationale I read is you take Roy because he is a proven all star over the "potential" of a Rose.

Do the same posters feel the same way about Oden . . . would you take a proven all star center today over Oden?

Dwight Howard for Greg? Sure!

 

[blue32]

when it comes to guards, they are a dime a dozen, so you take the proven all-star that has only three years in the league, because odds are, you'll get another good one soon enough.

When it comes to centers, they're more rare. So if your vet is on the down hill swing, you take the up and comer w/huge potential.

The Roy/Rose thing is stupid, b/c Roy's been in the league, what 3 years? They're both still reaching their potential, and Roy's already an all-star twice now..... Roy wins hands down.

 

[Minstrel]

I wonder if Blazer fans are being consistent . . . the rationale I read is you take Roy because he is a proven all star over the "potential" of a Rose.

Do the same posters feel the same way about Oden . . . would you take a proven all star center today over Oden?

I'd trade Oden for Howard or Yao. There aren't any other centers who are Roy's caliber of talent.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Dwight Howard for Greg? Sure!

Yao Ming?

Shaq?

Pau Gasol?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I'd trade Oden for Howard or Yao. There aren't any other centers who are Roy's caliber of talent.

I don't think Roy even made first or second team all NBA . . . it might just be Blazer fans that put him in the superstar category.

But why stop at centers when we are making this comparison. Roy is being compared to Rose. How about Oden for Amare. Parker, West.

My point is I don't think the argument you go with the already proven commodity is always the answer. Sometimes potenital of a player overcomes that.

 

[Minstrel]

I don't think Roy even made first or second team all NBA . . . it might just be Blazer fans that put him in the superstar category.

There's far, far less competition among centers than among guards, so that's a poor comparison. And Roy is at a disadvantage in terms of proven reputation. In terms of production, only Paul, Wade and Kobe are better than Roy.

 

[alex42083]

Yao Ming?

Shaq?

Pau Gasol?

It's tough to compare when it's between a 24-year-old B-Roy and 20-year-old Rose.

Yao's 28, Shaq has one year left in his career, and Gasol is 29. Greg is only 21.

 

[Minstrel]

My point is I don't think the argument you go with the already proven commodity is always the answer. Sometimes potenital of a player overcomes that.

I agree. My point was that Roy is already at such a high level of production (and has his own upside still) that the chances of Rose's ceiling being above what Roy already is, is tiny. Rose would need to be a top-five player. Possible, but extremely unlikely. I think Rose's ceiling is what Roy currently is (a player in the 5-10 range) so you take the sure thing over the player who may one day get there. Especially considering there isn't a big age difference.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I agree. My point was that Roy is already at such a high level of production (and has his own upside still) that the chances of Rose's ceiling being above what Roy already is, is tiny. Rose would need to be a top-five player. Possible, but extremely unlikely. I think Rose's ceiling is what Roy currently is (a player in the 5-10 range) so you take the sure thing over the player who may one day get there. Especially considering there isn't a big age difference.

I see where you are coming from . . . I think there are a lot of non-Blazer fans who would dispute your opinion about Rose's ceiling . . . and probably about Roy's current level (5-10 range).

But I'm a Blazer fan, so sure . . . I'll put Roy in the top 10 players in the league.

 

[ebott]

Stats? Link?

Nope it's just an opinion. It's an eyeball test thing. I watch Brandon play and I say "he's good." Then I watch Rose and I say "he's better."

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Nope it's just an opinion. It's an eyeball test thing. I watch Brandon play and I say "he's good." Then I watch Rose and I say "he's better."

You should be banned.

 

[blazerboy30]

I wonder if Blazer fans are being consistent . . . the rationale I read is you take Roy because he is a proven all star over the "potential" of a Rose.

I think what you are missing is that we would take Roy because he is a proven superstar (better than allstar), AND he is still young.

Do the same posters feel the same way about Oden . . . would you take a proven all star center today over Oden?

I would take a proven superstar center, that is still young, over Oden. There aren't many options.

 

[BengalDuck]

This is a very difficult debate.

But I would argue that Paul, Williams, and Parker will all be better than Rose for at least the next five years, whereas Roy looks to be right behind Kobe and Wade for best SG and Kobe is slowly getting older and Wade has never been a demon of health.

Roy has accomplished more, no doubt, but Rose is a very good prospect.

 

[Da_O]

Roy or Steve Francis Jr.?

I'll stick with Roy.

 

[DaRizzle]

None-sense. And strange coming from a fan of a team that did not have a top-PG in a long long time - yet was very successful.

Its "nonsense"

The Lakers are absolutely the exception to my PG argument. The triangle offense is built around not having a true PG, just somebody who can bring the ball up the court. Nobody else runs the true triangle in the NBA.

Ever since Deron and CP3 came in the league a lot of teams are of the opinion a great PG can turn a team around quicker than a just as skilled player at another position. I agree unless the other players name is Shaq, Lebron, Kobe, or Jordan

 

[Da_O]

I don't think Roy even made first or second team all NBA . . . it might just be Blazer fans that put him in the superstar category.

But why stop at centers when we are making this comparison. Roy is being compared to Rose. How about Oden for Amare. Parker, West.

My point is I don't think the argument you go with the already proven commodity is always the answer. Sometimes potenital of a player overcomes that.

The All NBA teams have yet to come out, but I guarantee Roy is on 2nd team above Williams and Parker.

 

[DaRizzle]

Roy or Steve Francis Jr.?

I'll stick with Roy.

Steve Francis and Starbury is who you compare Rose to?!? Your nuts, or just being an over the top hater

 

[blazerboy30]

Ever since Deron and CP3 came in the league a lot of teams are of the opinion a great PG can turn a team around quicker than a just as skilled player at another position.

CP3 is a top 5 NBA player. I would be surprised if there are many top-5 NBA players that join a team and don't make a huge impact to a team, regardless of position.

I would actually go a step further and say that:
If a player joins a team and does NOT make a huge impact on their new team, they can not possibly be a top-5 NBA player.

 

[Da_O]

Steve Francis and Starbury is who you compare Rose to?!? Your nuts, or just being an over the top hater

No I'm joking but your myopic mind couldn't think that was an option could it....jk

But on a serious note Rose is good. He does remind of an early Marbury and Francis. Guys that can create their shot, get to the rim at will, but with no jumpshot or defense of any kind. That and Rose will probably never be a great distributor. Always being in the 7 to 8 range in assists.

 

[LittleAlex]

Yao Ming?

Shaq?

Pau Gasol?

Shaq is too old, but I would take the other two over Oden right now.

I think Oden will be awesome, but Yao and Pau already ARE awesome.

 

[Minstrel]

Its "nonsense"

The Lakers are absolutely the exception to my PG argument. The triangle offense is built around not having a true PG, just somebody who can bring the ball up the court. Nobody else runs the true triangle in the NBA.

The Lakers are absolutely the exception, just like the Bulls, Rockets, Spurs before Parker and Heat.

Yes, the triangle mattered for the Bulls and Lakers, but that wasn't an issue for the other teams. Since Isiah Thomas' Pistons last won the title, top flight point guards have been a rarity on championship teams.

There's no causality there...having a great point guard doesn't prevent you from winning a title. It just goes to show that dominating certain positions doesn't matter. What matters is that you have dominant players at some position(s). Which positions is irrelevant.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

2 time all star and a borderline MVP candidate while leading the second youngest team in the league to 54 wins?

Yeah. I think I'll stick with Brandon Roy. And its not even freaking close.

 

[andalusian]

Its "nonsense"

No. Nonsense in nonchalant. It is part of the vocabulary. None-sense emphasizes the none part - which was important given the discrepancy between your argument and NBA history.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...lug=ap-rookieofyear&prov=ap&type=lgns&print=1

Bulls’ Rose is voted NBA rookie of the year

By ANDREW SELIGMAN, AP Sports Writer 1 hour, 11 minutes ago

NORTHBROOK, Ill. (AP)—Like most good point guards, Derrick Rose rarely gives anything away. This time, he couldn’t resist.

After learning Wednesday he is the NBA’s rookie of the year, Rose let a little secret slip: He wanted the award. Badly.

“When I first came into the season, my biggest thing was to get this award,” Rose said. “I was telling you all that I didn’t care, but I did. You really do want this award. There was a lot of talent out there that I had to go against.”

Rose, who led his hometown Bulls to the playoffs and restored hope to a franchise in disarray, was the runaway pick.

“For Derrick to take the ball from Day 1, to lead our basketball team, to play at the level he played at is really, really significant and certainly means that as we go forward here, we’ve got the guy that we are going to build around,” general manager John Paxson said.

Rose became the third Bulls player to win the award Wednesday, joining Michael Jordan and Elton Brand. He received 111 first-place votes and 574 points from a national panel of sports writers and broadcasters; runner-up O.J. Mayo of the Memphis Grizzlies received five first-place votes and 127 points.

Rose’s selection was hardly a surprise, after the No. 1 overall draft pick led all rookies with 6.3 assists per game and was second in scoring average at 16.8, and established himself as the franchise’s first true cornerstone since Jordan.

“I think there are very few people in the NBA who could do what he did this year,” teammate Joakim Noah said. “You tell me another No. 1 pick who got to the playoffs in their hometown, especially in a big city with so many distractions and so many things going on. I mean, he’s all about one thing and that’s winning basketball games, and that’s what I respect about him.”

The only other players who received first-place votes were Brook Lopez of the New Jersey Nets and Russell Westbrook of the Oklahoma City Thunder. Eric Gordon of the Los Angeles Clippers rounded out the top five.

A point guard from Chicago’s South Side, Rose used his strength, blinding quickness and uncanny maturity to help turn around a team that went 33-49 last season. Now, he’s in elite company, joining past winners such as LeBron James and Kevin Durant—not to mention the guy whose statue sits outside the United Center.

“You want to be in that category,” Rose said.

Rose’s approach, as much as his talent, impressed his teammates and coaches. He’s constantly taking pointers from veteran guards Kirk Hinrich and Lindsey Hunter, whom Paxson called an “unsung hero” in Rose’s development.

“Not many guys can transfer it from here to there that fast,” Hunter said, pointing from his head to the court. “But he’s able to do that. I think that’s what’s so unique about him.”

Rose was the Eastern Conference rookie of the month in November and December and again in March, helping the Bulls go 41-41 and reach the postseason for the fourth time in five years. In last Saturday’s playoff opener against Boston, Rose matched Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s scoring record for a debuting rookie with 36 points and 11 assists in a 105-103 overtime victory.

Rose added 10 points, seven assists and six rebounds in a Game 2 loss.

He excelled from the start and never really slowed down, although he was at times benched late in games. That stopped after Paxson chatted with coach Vinny Del Negro, but whether he was playing in the closing moments or not, Rose never complained publicly.

“He plays both ends of the court, which is refreshing to see,” Lakers star Kobe Bryant said. “A lot of young players don’t play both ends. He works hard at it, defense as well.”

Indiana coach Jim O’Brien even compared him to LeBron James.

“They’re different positions, but LeBron James has the same thing—it’s hard to knock him off his driving lane,” O’Brien said. “And I think he’s improved his outside shot. And I think he knows the game.”

From the moment he returned to Chicago, Rose has fit with the Bulls. They won the draft lottery despite 1.7 percent odds and could have picked Michael Beasley, the high-scoring forward from Kansas State. Instead, they went with the guard who grew up a few miles from the United Center in the rough Englewood neighborhood.

They saw a dynamic floor leader, a selfless player—a winner.

Rose led Simeon Career Academy to the state championship and Memphis to 38 wins and the NCAA title game in his lone season. Now, he’s helping the Bulls turn things around after what seemed like a solid plan went awry.

Chicago won 49 games and swept Miami before falling to Detroit in the second round of the playoffs two years ago, but any momentum the Bulls had ground to a halt.

Failed contract negotiations involving Luol Deng and Ben Gordon along with Bryant trade rumors set a bad tone last season, and coach Scott Skiles was fired in December. Interim coach Jim Boylan was gone at the end of the season, and the Bulls settled on Del Negro after high-profile courtships with Mike D’Antoni and Doug Collins.

Along the way, they scored arguably their biggest victory in a decade when they won the draft lottery. With Rose running the show, the Bulls believe their cornerstone is in place for the next decade.

“I’ve got a lot of friends who are coaches,” Hunter said. “I’m like, ‘Man, you guys don’t know how good he is. He doesn’t even understand what he is yet.’ … I see him being that point guard that is going to push Deron Williams and Chris Paul to the limit.”

 

[Denny Crane]

Derrick Rose
Rookie season, 16.8 PPG, 6.8 APG, 3.9 RPG, 47.5% FG +8 team wins

Chris Paul
Rookie season, 16.1 PPG, 7.8 APG, 5.1 RPG, 43% FG +20 team wins

Deron Williams
Rookie season, 10.8 PPG, 4.5 APG, 2.4 RPG, 42.1% FG +15 team wins

Brandon Roy
Rookie season, 16.8 PPG, 4.0 APG, 4.4 RPG, 45.6% FG +11 team wins

I'd point out that the Bulls were really hurt by injuries. Deng played 49 games, Hinrich 41, Gooden missed 20 or so before being traded, Hughes missed the start of the season, etc.

 

[BasX]

Can I push and take both. Both are fuckin awesome. I love both guys.

 

[ebott]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...lug=ap-rookieofyear&prov=ap&type=lgns&print=1

Bulls’ Rose is voted NBA rookie of the year

By ANDREW SELIGMAN, AP Sports Writer 1 hour, 11 minutes ago

NORTHBROOK, Ill. (AP)—Like most good point guards, Derrick Rose rarely gives anything away. This time, he couldn’t resist.

After learning Wednesday he is the NBA’s rookie of the year, Rose let a little secret slip: He wanted the award. Badly.

“When I first came into the season, my biggest thing was to get this award,” Rose said. “I was telling you all that I didn’t care, but I did. You really do want this award. There was a lot of talent out there that I had to go against.”

Rose, who led his hometown Bulls to the playoffs and restored hope to a franchise in disarray, was the runaway pick.

“For Derrick to take the ball from Day 1, to lead our basketball team, to play at the level he played at is really, really significant and certainly means that as we go forward here, we’ve got the guy that we are going to build around,” general manager John Paxson said.

Rose became the third Bulls player to win the award Wednesday, joining Michael Jordan and Elton Brand. He received 111 first-place votes and 574 points from a national panel of sports writers and broadcasters; runner-up O.J. Mayo of the Memphis Grizzlies received five first-place votes and 127 points.

Rose’s selection was hardly a surprise, after the No. 1 overall draft pick led all rookies with 6.3 assists per game and was second in scoring average at 16.8, and established himself as the franchise’s first true cornerstone since Jordan.

“I think there are very few people in the NBA who could do what he did this year,” teammate Joakim Noah said. “You tell me another No. 1 pick who got to the playoffs in their hometown, especially in a big city with so many distractions and so many things going on. I mean, he’s all about one thing and that’s winning basketball games, and that’s what I respect about him.”

The only other players who received first-place votes were Brook Lopez of the New Jersey Nets and Russell Westbrook of the Oklahoma City Thunder. Eric Gordon of the Los Angeles Clippers rounded out the top five.

A point guard from Chicago’s South Side, Rose used his strength, blinding quickness and uncanny maturity to help turn around a team that went 33-49 last season. Now, he’s in elite company, joining past winners such as LeBron James and Kevin Durant—not to mention the guy whose statue sits outside the United Center.

“You want to be in that category,” Rose said.

Rose’s approach, as much as his talent, impressed his teammates and coaches. He’s constantly taking pointers from veteran guards Kirk Hinrich and Lindsey Hunter, whom Paxson called an “unsung hero” in Rose’s development.

“Not many guys can transfer it from here to there that fast,” Hunter said, pointing from his head to the court. “But he’s able to do that. I think that’s what’s so unique about him.”

Rose was the Eastern Conference rookie of the month in November and December and again in March, helping the Bulls go 41-41 and reach the postseason for the fourth time in five years. In last Saturday’s playoff opener against Boston, Rose matched Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s scoring record for a debuting rookie with 36 points and 11 assists in a 105-103 overtime victory.

Rose added 10 points, seven assists and six rebounds in a Game 2 loss.

He excelled from the start and never really slowed down, although he was at times benched late in games. That stopped after Paxson chatted with coach Vinny Del Negro, but whether he was playing in the closing moments or not, Rose never complained publicly.

“He plays both ends of the court, which is refreshing to see,” Lakers star Kobe Bryant said. “A lot of young players don’t play both ends. He works hard at it, defense as well.”

Indiana coach Jim O’Brien even compared him to LeBron James.

“They’re different positions, but LeBron James has the same thing—it’s hard to knock him off his driving lane,” O’Brien said. “And I think he’s improved his outside shot. And I think he knows the game.”

From the moment he returned to Chicago, Rose has fit with the Bulls. They won the draft lottery despite 1.7 percent odds and could have picked Michael Beasley, the high-scoring forward from Kansas State. Instead, they went with the guard who grew up a few miles from the United Center in the rough Englewood neighborhood.

They saw a dynamic floor leader, a selfless player—a winner.

Rose led Simeon Career Academy to the state championship and Memphis to 38 wins and the NCAA title game in his lone season. Now, he’s helping the Bulls turn things around after what seemed like a solid plan went awry.

Chicago won 49 games and swept Miami before falling to Detroit in the second round of the playoffs two years ago, but any momentum the Bulls had ground to a halt.

Failed contract negotiations involving Luol Deng and Ben Gordon along with Bryant trade rumors set a bad tone last season, and coach Scott Skiles was fired in December. Interim coach Jim Boylan was gone at the end of the season, and the Bulls settled on Del Negro after high-profile courtships with Mike D’Antoni and Doug Collins.

Along the way, they scored arguably their biggest victory in a decade when they won the draft lottery. With Rose running the show, the Bulls believe their cornerstone is in place for the next decade.

“I’ve got a lot of friends who are coaches,” Hunter said. “I’m like, ‘Man, you guys don’t know how good he is. He doesn’t even understand what he is yet.’ … I see him being that point guard that is going to push Deron Williams and Chris Paul to the limit.”

I didn't read any of that.

 

[KingSpeed]

They're both good.

 

[KingSpeed]

You guys do realize that Roy is a point guard as well as a shooting guard. This whole "PG's are so desireable" bologna is sickening. Name me Point Guards who have been the FOCAL point of their teams success that lead to titles outside of Thomas and Magic? And that was over 2 decades ago.
Stockton? NOPE
Kidd?NOPE
Nash?NOPE
Kevin Johnson?NOPE
Tim Hardaway?NOPE
Penny Hardaway?NOPE
Tony Parker is debatable,

Chauncey Billups? Yes.

 

[KingSpeed]

Shaq is too old, but I would take the other two over Oden right now.

I think Oden will be awesome, but Yao and Pau already ARE awesome.

I would actually keep Oden over those two. Pau isn't really a center and Yao is limited in his abilities, is often hurt, and has never gotten his team out of the first round. Oden will have his team out of the first round in his rookie year.