Debate in another forum ..... Roy or Rose?

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KingSpeed said:
Chauncey Billups? Yes.
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Billups was a first among equals - he was the best player on a team that had 5 starters mostly at his level - going against a dominant team crumbling because Shaq and Kobe wanted to kill each other rather than play basketball with each other.

Yahtzee.
 
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Denny Crane said:
Derrick Rose
Rookie season, 16.8 PPG, 6.8 APG, 3.9 RPG, 47.5% FG +8 team wins

Chris Paul
Rookie season, 16.1 PPG, 7.8 APG, 5.1 RPG, 43% FG +20 team wins

Deron Williams
Rookie season, 10.8 PPG, 4.5 APG, 2.4 RPG, 42.1% FG +15 team wins

Brandon Roy
Rookie season, 16.8 PPG, 4.0 APG, 4.4 RPG, 45.6% FG +11 team wins

I'd point out that the Bulls were really hurt by injuries. Deng played 49 games, Hinrich 41, Gooden missed 20 or so before being traded, Hughes missed the start of the season, etc.
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Good company to be with. Should be noted that Roy actually was out for 20+ games in his rookie year - one suspects his +11 team wins would have been higher had he played in more of them - and even higher if he did not have Zach Randolph on his team (as shown in his 2nd year).
 
Minstrel said:
The Lakers are absolutely the exception, just like the Bulls, Rockets, Spurs before Parker and Heat.

Yes, the triangle mattered for the Bulls and Lakers, but that wasn't an issue for the other teams. Since Isiah Thomas' Pistons last won the title, top flight point guards have been a rarity on championship teams.

There's no causality there...having a great point guard doesn't prevent you from winning a title. It just goes to show that dominating certain positions doesn't matter. What matters is that you have dominant players at some position(s). Which positions is irrelevant.
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All the teams you mentioned had quality PG's. Very solid, nothing spectacular. Yet at the same time tried to fill the traditional role of a PG. The PG in the triangle only asks that you can make the reads like every other player on the court and make your open shots...Idk why you mention the Bulls since they obviously ran the triangle too. The NBA evolves. Right now teams want a top tier PG...Im not the only one to say this.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Roy is taller... stronger... and one of the most complete players in the game. Rose is going to be special, but so will Brandon Roy, and Roy is from the Pac NW. I'll keep Roy. He isn't going to leave for greener pastures.
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Who is the last player that left for "greener pastures" that really hurt the team by leaving?
 
andalusian said:
Good company to be with. Should be noted that Roy actually was out for 20+ games in his rookie year - one suspects his +11 team wins would have been higher had he played in more of them - and even higher if he did not have Zach Randolph on his team (as shown in his 2nd year).
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Maybe it's a little easier to go from 21 wins to 32 wins than from 33 to 41?

Clearly it's a lot easier to go from 1 win to 2 than it is from 60 to 61, since you get 81 tries at it vs. 22.
 
DaRizzle said:
All the teams you mentioned had quality PG's. Very solid, nothing spectacular.
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Teams who win championships tend to have "solid" players at most, if not all, positions. Hardly insightful. The point is that exceptional point guards aren't necessary.

The PG in the triangle only asks that you can make the reads like every other player on the court and make your open shots...Idk why you mention the Bulls since they obviously ran the triangle too.
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I mentioned that the Bulls used the triangle. The point is, you can obviously run schemes that mitigate the importance of the point guard (you can run schemes that mitigate the importance of any specific position). Jackson plays to the strength of his players. If he had had a prime Chris Paul or Jason Kidd, he'd have adapted his system to take advantage of an elite point guard. However, he's never had one. His elite players were Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal. Three of those players were good to great passers, so it made sense to run a system that distributed the passing duties.

The NBA evolves. Right now teams want a top tier PG...Im not the only one to say this.
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No, right now teams want top tier players. Like in every year. LeBron James would be at the top of everyone's wish list and he's not a point guard. Dwight Howard would be near the top of everyone's wish list. Only then do you get to Chris Paul. And then, if age weren't a big concern, Wade and Kobe would also be right up there. How many of those are point guards? Deron Williams and Tony Parker would not be ahead of any of those players.

Going back five or six years or so, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe and McGrady would probably have topped most people's wish lists. Maybe Kidd would have been on some people's lists, but probably not ahead of those players.

I'm certainly not seeing this new desire for "top tier point guards."
 
Oh yeah, I'm not taking a side in this debate. I really like both guys about the same.
 
Denny Crane said:
Maybe it's a little easier to go from 21 wins to 32 wins than from 33 to 41?

Clearly it's a lot easier to go from 1 win to 2 than it is from 60 to 61, since you get 81 tries at it vs. 22.
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I am sure it is - and I did notice that Rose is in a good company - but let's face it - the Bulls of last year underachieved - grossly - and that team had/has some talent - where the '06 Blazers team was a mismatch of talents and they lost a lot of talent to injuries as well - Pryzbilla was knee'ed in the place where the sun does not shine very early in the season and the rest of his season was forgettable, Roy missed a lot more time than Rose did - and unlike the Bulls this year - the Blazers did not give Roy the reigns and told him to lead them to the promised land - they still went through Zach Randolph (a supreme offensive talent - but he gave all that he took on the other side of the court).

I still say that the '06 Blazers team would have improved by more than 11 games if Roy was not out as long as he was.
 
andalusian said:
I am sure it is - and I did notice that Rose is in a good company - but let's face it - the Bulls of last year underachieved - grossly - and that team had/has some talent - where the '06 Blazers team was a mismatch of talents and they lost a lot of talent to injuries as well - Pryzbilla was knee'ed in the place where the sun does not shine very early in the season and the rest of his season was forgettable, Roy missed a lot more time than Rose did - and unlike the Bulls this year - the Blazers did not give Roy the reigns and told him to lead them to the promised land - they still went through Zach Randolph (a supreme offensive talent - but he gave all that he took on the other side of the court).

I still say that the '06 Blazers team would have improved by more than 11 games if Roy was not out as long as he was.
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Perhaps, but the Bulls started Aaron Gray for 18 games, Larry Hughes at SF (after he returned from early season injury of a bunch of games), Hinrich was out with injury, Deng did manage 49 games but only looked healthy for about 15 of those. Bulls have a new coach who never coached a game in his life. At the trade deadline, the Bulls picked up two players off one of the worst teams in the league (Sacto) and were 25-31 at the time, they finished 16-10 basically with adequate replacements for Deng and Gooden (a double-double guy for us). Imagine if we had Miller and Salmons from the start of the season.

:cheers:
 
andalusian said:
Billups was a first among equals - he was the best player on a team that had 5 starters mostly at his level - going against a dominant team crumbling because Shaq and Kobe wanted to kill each other rather than play basketball with each other.

Yahtzee.
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Ben Wallace was by far the best player on that Pistons team, and it's not even close.
 
Денг Гордон said:
Ben Wallace was by far the best player on that Pistons team, and it's not even close.
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Huh. Billups had a higher PER, higher win-share and a finals-mvp trophy to call your bluff. Granted - Ben Wallace was the 2nd best player on this team - but that's as far as it goes.
 
Regarding Crane's comparison of each ones's rookie year, Rose also played in the east.
 
Minstrel said:
No, right now teams want top tier players. Like in every year. LeBron James would be at the top of everyone's wish list and he's not a point guard. Dwight Howard would be near the top of everyone's wish list. Only then do you get to Chris Paul. And then, if age weren't a big concern, Wade and Kobe would also be right up there. How many of those are point guards? Deron Williams and Tony Parker would not be ahead of any of those players.

Going back five or six years or so, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe and McGrady would probably have topped most people's wish lists. Maybe Kidd would have been on some people's lists, but probably not ahead of those players.

I'm certainly not seeing this new desire for "top tier point guards."
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EXACTLY!

If you can get a top5 player you do it, position doesn't matter. If your team ends up with no PG but two of the best wings in the game you manipulate the teams system to fit these elite players.

You don't manipulate players to fit an elite system.
 
BengalDuck said:
Regarding Crane's comparison of each ones's rookie year, Rose also played in the east.
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Rose had a fantastic rookie season and the accolades he got were well deserved. Does not change the fact that I just do not buy the elite PG stuff is so crucial mantra.
 
julius said:
Who is the last player that left for "greener pastures" that really hurt the team by leaving?
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The last one?

After Chauncey Billups left Detroit, the Pistons went from 59-23 a year ago to 39-43 this season.

Here are others:

After Shaq left L.A., the Lakers failed to make the playoffs.

After Shawn Marion left the Suns, the Suns fell from #1 in the West to a 1-4 exit in the first round of the playoffs to the lottery.

After Kevin Garnett left Minnesota, the Wolves went from 32-50 to 22-60.

After Baron Davis left Oakland, the Warriors went from 48-34 to 29-53.
 
KingSpeed said:
The last one?

After Chauncey Billups left Detroit, the Pistons went from 59-23 a year ago to 39-43 this season.

Here are others:

After Shaq left L.A., the Lakers failed to make the playoffs.

After Shawn Marion left the Suns, the Suns fell from #1 in the West to a 1-4 exit in the first round of the playoffs to the lottery.

After Kevin Garnett left Minnesota, the Wolves went from 32-50 to 22-60.
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None of those players left for "greener pastures" (in other words, for money...the "green" is a hint). They were all traded for team-related issues.

After Baron Davis left Oakland, the Warriors went from 48-34 to 29-53.
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He definitely left, and it hurt, but the Warriors were also done in by losing Monta Ellis for the vast majority of the season. Players rarely leave existing teams for more money because their current teams can offer them the most. Almost always when a team goes to another team for more money it's because their current team no longer considers them worth the money. And, consequently, it's usually not too damaging to the team to lose the player.
 
Is Roy really a top 5 player?

Among league leaders:
Not in top 20 minutes played
8th in field goals
9th in FGA
not in top 20 FG%
not in top 20 3pt FG
not in top 20 3pt ATT
not in top 20 3pt %
14th FTM
15th FTA
not in top 20 FT%
not in top 20 OFF REB
not in top 20 DEF REB
not in top 20 TOT REB
not in top 20 assists
not in top 20 steals
not in top 20 blocks
not in top 20 turnovers (a good thing :) )
not in top 20 PF (another good thing)
8th in total points (Ben Gordon 11th, BTW)
not in top 20 MPG
10th PPG
7th PER
not in top 20 TS%
not in top 20 EFG%
not in top 20 steal %
not in top 20 blk %
15th in TO % (a bad thing)
14th in usage %
4th offensive rating
not in top 20 defensive rating
3rd offensive win shares
not in top 20 defensive win shares
7th in win shares

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2009_leaders.html
 
^^^ he's top 20 in 11 statistical categories, top 5 in one.

Wade is top 20 in 22 of those categories, top 5 in 15 of those.

EDIT: Chris Paul top 20 in 24 of those, top 5 in 10 of those, #1 in a few.

EDIT: Joe Johnson is top 20 in 11 statistical categories, top 5 in two.

EDIT: Kobe is top 20 in 16 categories, top 5 in five.

EDIT: LeBron is top 20 in 25 categories, top 5 in thirteen.

EDIT: Antawn Jamison is top 20 in 12 categories, top 5 in four.

EDIT: Rondo is top 20 in 10 categories, top 5 in five.

EDIT: Dirk is top 20 in 18 categories, top 5 in five.
 
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Minstrel said:
Has anyone really called him a top 5 player? I think the most people have said is that he's in the 5-10 range.

Brandon Roy is 7th in the league in PER, not very far behind #5 Tim Duncan:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...nger/statistics?sort=per&pos=all&seasonType=2
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You just mentioned 5.

I'm looking for the basis to rank him up there.

I think he's a great player. I think Joe Johnson is, too. To name one of the guys I looked up the stats for.

And no, I don't think Rose is a top 5 PG right now.

I might argue the Bulls' backcourt is overall one of the 5 best though.
 
The thing with Roy is that his intangibles do not show up on the statline
 
MAS RipCity said:
The thing with Roy is that his intangibles do not show up on the statline
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That's fair, but you'd think the guy would be the very best at at least one thing.

Looking at that URL I posted, check out Wade. Scary scary good.

By that same argument, Paul Pierce is way up there with Wade and LeBron. He sacrifices his stats because he's got 3 phenominal teammates (Rondo, KG, Allen) who need some touches. But when the game is really on the line, the ball is in his hands. The team's record doesn't lie.

How about Jamison? The Wizards sucked this season, but for the past few, he's been almost a one man show with a shitty bunch of teammates (the good ones hurt a lot) and the record has been pretty amazing.
 
Minstrel said:
Right, I mentioned 5, none of which was Roy. Thus, I don't think he's top 5.

I said in a few posts that he was in the 5-10 range.
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No, you mentioned 5. Again.
 
Denny Crane said:
That's fair, but you'd think the guy would be the very best at at least one thing.
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That's not really roy's game. He's a jack of all trades. He's an exceptional scorer, but not the best. He's a good passer, but not the best. He's a good rebounder, but not the best. It's actually kind of surprising that he hasn't notched more triple doubles though.
 
Minstrel said:
Sorry, lazy writing on my part. I meant 6-10. I was trying to communicate the second group of five.
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Can you justify #6?

How about #10?

Like, maybe I can name 10 guys better.

I already started on a pretty good list.
;)
 
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